Panama Limited - What was the journey like in the 1930s?

[Pullman608]

Sorry, Dave. Not correct. The Panama Limited Diners came from Pullman-Standard just before WWII. These cars were replaced by the ex-C&O twin units. The final diners were Centrailia-shops-built ex-heavyweights, configured to 48 seats.

[CSumption]

I wanted to express my thanks to all of you who have so faithfully answered my questions about the Panama Limited in the 1930s. I've been working for the past five years with playwright Cheryl L. West on her new play Pullman Porter Blues, which opens tomorrow night (10/4/2012) at Seattle Repertory Theatre. It will run there for a month, and then transfer to Arena Stage in Washington, DC. The play takes place on the Panama Limited on the night that Joe Louis won the heavyweight championship. Please see it if you can. Where the train information is accurate, we have you to thank!

Chris

[daveklepper]

I would just like to point out that dc commercial power distribution still existed in many cities and towns in the 20's and 30's.    Indeed, the home I grew up in in Manhattan did not get switched to ac power until after WWII!  (My electric trains were powered by a bank of resistors with a sliding contact to control voltage and speed!)  So a commerial raido could be bought that took dc, not ac power.    Just fine for the axle-driven generators and batteries.

[Deggesty]

AgentKid

Here is an article with two great pictures of radio's on CNR passenger trains.

http://www.cn.ca/about/company_information/history/CNRadio2.htm

Bruce

Bruce, thanks for the pictures. I have the first one in one of my books (I do not remember just which one). In the early years of radios on trains, earphones were used by the passengers. The picture I have of the radio on the Pioneer Limited shows both earphones and a trumpet speaker.

[AgentKid]

Here is an article with two great pictures of radio's on CNR passenger trains.

http://www.cn.ca/about/company_information/history/CNRadio2.htm

Bruce

[Deggesty]

CSumption

Does anyone have an idea of what a radio would have looked like on a Pullman lounge car? Or thoughts about where I might look for a photo or illustration?

If you have access to Arthur D. Dubin's More Classic Trains, you can find six pictures of radios placed in lounge cars in the twenties and the thirties. Four of the radios look like the console radios of the thirties (which is probably just what they were). The two from the twenties look like what I expect were the top of the line in the twenties. And, there are three pictures of the interior of a car that broadcst a show from the Pioneer Limited in 1927. 

Also, as I recall, there is at least one picture of a radio in a CN lounge car in The Trains We Rode (I cannot place my hands on my copy at the moment, or I could give more detail).

[CSumption]

Does anyone have an idea of what a radio would have looked like on a Pullman lounge car? Or thoughts about where I might look for a photo or illustration?

[KCSfan]

It's been 45 years since the last of several trips I made across the Ohio River bridge on trains of the IC and the passage of time has dimmed my memories of the crossings somewhat. All IC trains stopped at the North Cairo station which as I recall was located on the embankment which was the northern approach to the bridge proper.  The bridge was always crossed at a reduced speed that I would estimate was about 30 mph max. There was definitely no squealing of wheel flanges as the bridge was crossed. While most of my trips were on the City of Miami, this info would apply to the Panama as well.

Marl

[Deggesty]

CSumption

How long did it take for the Panama Limited to cross the Mississippi? Did it have to slow down? Did it screech or squeal when it went over the bridge?

Except for the cars to/from St. Louis, the Panama Limited did not cross the Mississippi. It did cross the Ohio River at Cairo. Each approach to the bridge has a 90 degree turn, but the bridge itself has no sharp turns. I did  not take notice of a reduction in speed the two times I crossed in daylight (I have slept across the Ohio there several times), but that does not mean that there was none. The two times that I entered St. Louis on the MacArthur Bridge (used by the IC), we proceeded slowly.

Johnny

[CSumption]

How long did it take for the Panama Limited to cross the Mississippi? Did it have to slow down? Did it screech or squeal when it went over the bridge?

 

[Deggesty]

KCSfan

I'd be interested to learn when the parlor car services started. Did the unstreamlined Panama of the 1930's carry parlor cars, were they added in the early 40's when the train was streamlined, or were they added sometime after WWII?  Hopefully someone like Johnny who has OG's for a number of years in this time frame will research this and post a reply.

Mark

I’m sorry to be delayed in responding to the question about parlor cars on the Panama, but I was out of commission for three days last week.

The Guides and IC timetables that I have dated prior to 1942 show no parlor service between Chicago and New Orleans.

The earliest timetable I have with the new equipment, March, 1944, shows a parlor-lounge car between Jackson and Gulfport (no through sleeper), which is not what was asked about.

The March, 1947, timetable shows no parlor car at all.

The April, 1948, Guide shows a parlor-lounge St. Louis–Carbondale.

The December, 1948, timetable shows a parlor car (IC tickets) Chicago and Carbondale.

The 9/30/51 timetable shows a twin unit diner (owned and probably staffed by the IC) (the diners on the re-equipped train were owned by the IC) and parlor cars Chicago–Carbondale and Jackson–New Orleans.

The 4/26/53 timetable shows parlor cars Chicago–Carbondale and Memphis-New Orleans.

The 10/29/61 timetable shows only the Chicago-Carbondale parlor.

The 7-1-69 issue is the last timetable I have showing this parlor; thereafter a club-lounge is shown operating Chicago–Carbondale.

After one of the observation cars I do not remember if it was "Gulfport" or "Memphis") was wrecked in 1965, an IC parlor was operated in its place; I rode it Brookhaven to Jackson that July.

Many "all-Pullman" trains carried RR-owned and operated diners; I do not believe that a non-Pullman operated parlor disqualifies a train from being called "all-Pullman," since it was still a first-class only train.

Johnny

[wanswheel]

This link is to larger image of the 1942 New Haven ad that Stix posted above.

http://explorepahistory.com/images/ExplorePAHistory-a0c0k2-a_349.jpg

"Nelson Metcalf was just into his second year as a copywriter with the Colton agency in Boston when he was told to write an ad for its railroad client explaining how delays in passenger service, so irritating to regular riders, were due to the priority to move troops. The Kid In Upper 4 was scheduled for one insertion in the New York Herald Tribune. The day it appeared, Elmer Davis, head of the Office of War Information, ordered that it be run in newspapers around the country."

[KCSfan]

Up to about 1966 when coaches (which were billed as the Magnolia Star) were added to the Panama's consist I had always considered it to be an all Pullman train. However it did carry a parlor car between Chicago and Carbondale and another between Memphis and New Orleans. The note beside these two cars in the equipment section of circa 1950's OG's states "Illinois Central Tickets". This suggests the parlor cars were IC owned and operated which would technically drop the Panama from the ranks of the all Pullman trains of that time.

I'd be interested to learn when the parlor car services started. Did the unstreamlined Panama of the 1930's carry parlor cars, were they added in the early 40's when the train was streamlined, or were they added sometime after WWII?  Hopefully someone like Johnny who has OG's for a number of years in this time frame will research this and post a reply.

Mark

[wjstix]

Interesting !! I never heard about the blue sheets before. The IC trip would be an experience shared by thousands of blacks that migrated from the delta to Chicago, including many of the great postwar bluesmen.

Since WW2 travel was mentioned, I seem to recall that in troop movements sleeping cars were normally assigned with three soldiers or sailors per section. Two would sleep in the lower berth and one in the upper....

http://home.mindspring.com/~railroadimages/images/kidupper/kidupper.jpg

[zephyrocket]

Several comments on the Panama Limited in 1930:

The stop in Cairo was actually in North Cairo as, after the bridge was complete, the city was on a stub track.  Several  trains did go down the stub, but most did not. 

Generally, blacks were not allowed as passengers on the Panama – that’s what made all-Pullman trains popular in the Jim Crow South.  It’s not like many Delta sharecroppers rode in sleepers anyway, but blacks were shifted to other trains.  In Chicago, all people of color had tickets to the deep south stamped “Boulevard.”  This stood for South (now MLK) Boulevard, the heart of the city’s black belt.  For passengers going to Dixie, this steered then to a segregated coach – the railroad didn’t want to shuffle passengers to meet the required segregation laws when they crossed the Ohio River .  So segregation was practiced, to some extent, in the Land of Lincoln.   The major problem with this system was with passengers ticketed by and interchanging from other lines.

As for the Panama, it appears that most people of color were steered to the Creole, which in later years only had a sleeper as far south as Memphis.   By the way, in the South, black sleeping car patrons and porters slept on sheets dyed blue.  I’m told the Smithsonian has one in their collection, but know of no others .   The Illinois Railway Museum has a heavyweight Pullman , the John McLoughlin, that likely served to carry people of color and it would like to find a “Boulevard” ticket to display.

As for the diners, the separate Jim Crow section allowed them to be used in pool service, not just on the Panama.  The segregated dining section was only enforced south of the Ohio River, where it was required.  The 1941 Panama consist, the first streamlined set, originally was designed with a “Colored” sleeping section and a separate buffet.  It was not built to that design.  On trains other than the Panama,  several historians relate that there was a ritual for colored passengers migrating north.  On the Ohio River bridge, they would go to the dining car and buy a Coke.  Most had never sat at a table with a white people and this ritual was considered a rite of passage.

 

 

 

[CSumption]

 

Thank you! This is all helpful. I'm so grateful that you guys know these trains so well. I'm learning so much.

[Deggesty]

CSumption, in case you are interested, here is the consist of the Panama Limited from the November, 1937 Guide:

Chicago-New Orleans: 1 each--2 drawing room, 3 compartment observation, 8 section, 5 double bedroom, 14 section, diner, & club car

Chicago-Gulfport: 1 8 section, 5 double bedroom

St. Louis-Carbondale: cafe lounge

St. Louis-New Orleans: 1 10 section, 2 double bedroom, 1 compartment.

Johnny

[daveklepper]

The above is correct, but the most common Pullman sleeping car, from the 1920's until lightweights with roomettes predominated in the post-WWII era, was the 12-section one drawing room car, with men's room at one end, women's at the other, separate facilities in a annex for the drawing room.   With three berths in the drawing room and 24 berths in the sections, the total was 27 berths for the car.   These were the cars commonly called "dreadnaughts" or "twelve-and-one's."

The facing seats in the Pullman sections were actually wide enough for two people.  IN emergency use day service as parlors or a coaches, often four people would be assigned to a section if the train was sold out.   Experienced this directly or by first-hand report on the Day Express, the State of Maine equipment making a second trip during WWII (one round trip each day instead of just one way, WWII and shortly after only), and when a Florida streamliner, or the Southerner was very late northbound, it would be turned at Philadlephia, or even Washignton, and orten Pullman section heavyweight sleepers would be used as the make-up train to complete the passengers' journeys and to provide the southbound connection. 

[Deggesty]

CSumption

On a Pullman sleeper with chairs that pulled down into berths, how many berths would there be per car?

For a car that had sleeper space only, without lounge or restaurant space, there could have been anywhere from about twenty to thirty-two berths. The early sleepers had sixteen sections, each with a lower and an upper berth. If more room were taken for washroom/smoking lounge facilities, there would be two less sections. As more private rooms (drawing rooms, which had three berths, compartments and double bedrooms, which had two berths, or single bedrooms, which had only one berth) were built in cars, fewer open sections were in the cars. The private rooms took more space than the sections, and thus the overall capacity of a car would be decreased. If there were a lounge or a restaurant in the car, the number of berths would be reduced in accord with the amount of space that the non-revenue service required. Ten-section lounge cars, and eight section-restaurant lounge cars were common.

There was a great variety in the combinations of sections and private rooms, and some cars had only private rooms (such as seven compartments & two drawing rooms or six compartments & three drawing rooms).

Generally, until the bedroom (single or double) was designed, all of the berths in a car, except one lower in a drawing room, were based on the section--which had two seats facing each other that were made down into a lower berth, and had an upper berth that swung down from the wall. The third berth in a drawing room was a sofa seat with a back that was swung down to provide the berth.

Johnny

[CSumption]

On a Pullman sleeper with chairs that pulled down into berths, how many berths would there be per car?

[De Luxe]

It´s from the 20´s, but I thought it still might be interesting for you:

Here is a picture of a "Mardi Gras" parlor car of the Panama Limited in 1925:

 

 

[CSumption]

Thank you so much! This is enormously helpful! 

[Deggesty]

CSumption

 What stops would the Panama Limited make in 1937?

Here is the schedule for trains 7 & 8 from the November, 1937 Guide.

7	Train Number					8
Daily		Miles		Services		Daily
1 00P	Dp	0.0	Chicago, IL(Central Station)(CT)	R	Ar	9 00A
1 11P		6.6	63rd St., Woodlawn, IL			8 43A
XX		22.1	Homewood, IL	X		XX
2c07P		54.5	Kankakee, IL	R		7c46A
3 30P	Ar	126.5	Champaign-Urbana,IL	R	Dp	6 10A
3 35P	Dp				Ar	6 05A
4c20P		171.0	Mattoon, IL	R		5c14A
4c50P		197.9	Effingham, IL			4c45A
6 00P	Ar	251.1	Centralia,IL		Dp	3 45A
6 05P	Dp				Ar	3 40A
7 10P	Ar	306.9	Carbondale,IL Lv St L 4 45P, Ar St L 7 20A (through cars)	R	Dp	2 30A
7 18P	Dp				Ar	2 25A
8 35P	Ar	360.2	Cairo,IL	R	Dp	1 20A
8 40P	Dp				Ar	1 15A
XX	Ar	404.8	Fulton,KY		Dp	XX
XX	Dp				Ar	XX
XX		449.9	Dyersburg, TN			XX
12 10A	Ar	527.2	Memphis,TN	R	Dp	9 20P
12 20A	Dp				Ar	9 10P
XX		586.1	Batesville, MS			XX
2 22A-2 27A		626.3	Grenada, MS			7 05P-7 10P
XX		649.2	Winona, MS			XX
XX		679.3	Durant, MS			XX
4 18 A-4 21A		714.5	Canton, MS			5 25P
5 00A	Ar	737.7	Jackson,MS		Dp	4 45P
5 05A	Dp				Ar	4 40P
XX		771.3	Hazlehurst, MS	X		XX
XX		791.8	Brookhaven, MS	X		XX
6 31A-6 36A		815.7	McComb, MS	X		3 03P-3 08P
7 39A		867.8	Hammond,LA (Baton Rouge vialimo)			2 07P
8 50A		918.7	NewOrleans, LA (CarrolltonAvenue)	X		1 07P
9 00A	Ar	921.1	NewOrleans, LA (UnionPsgr. Tml.)(CT)	R	Dp	1 00P

 

I tried to enter the 53^rd Street (5.1 mi) stop in Chicago, but had difficulty, so here are its times: SB, 1 08 pm; NB 8 46 am. Of course, the old Union Station was used in New Orleans; NOUPT was built right next to the old station. "c" in a time indicates a conditional (more restricted than a flag) stop; "XX" indicates that the train did not stop. I failed to check on the Hammond-Baton Rouge connection (it is not shown in the Chicago-New Orleans schedule); there may have been none at that time. In the sixties, at least, the service was operated by a man known as "Panama" Pinton; I rode with him on 12/26/64 because the Panama was running late and I feared that I would not make my connection with the KCS in NOUPT.

Johnny

[Deggesty]

wanswheel

New Orleans Union Station 1892-1954

Thanks for the pictures, Mike. My only sight of the old Union Station came in 1953, when I arrived from Baton Rouge on the MoP, and hastened over to the Terminal Station to take the Pelican for Birmingham, so I saw very little. I was next in New Orleans in 1960, arriving at NOUPT on the L&N, leaving and arriving on the KCS, and leaving on the Southern.

Johnny

[Deggesty]

daveklepper

I should have not used the words "first lightweight diners" in a previous response.   If my memory is correct, all dining cars ever used on the streamlined Panama Limited in regular service were thoroughly rebuilt heavywieghts that matched the lightweight equipment in appearance but still ran on six-wheel trucks, thus indicating they remained heavyweights.   But they definitely had the end of seating area glass, with frosted glass decoration "Jim Crow" partition.

Dave, you are speaking of the early years of the streamlined Panama Limited, are you not? In the 1950, the IC acquired two twin-unit diners (56 seat diner, kitchen-dormitory) from the C&O and operated them on the Panama. I ate in at least one, and possibly both (I did not note the car numbers) in the sixties, when I was living in Mississippi.

Johnny

[daveklepper]

I should have not used the words "first lightweight diners" in a previous response.   If my memory is correct, all dining cars ever used on the streamlined Panama Limited in regular service were thoroughly rebuilt heavywieghts that matched the lightweight equipment in appearance but still ran on six-wheel trucks, thus indicating they remained heavyweights.   But they definitely had the end of seating area glass, with frosted glass decoration "Jim Crow" partition.

[wanswheel]

New Orleans Union Station 1892-1954

http://nutrias.org/exhibits/choochoo/unionstation.jpg

http://nutrias.org/exhibits/choochoo/franck122.jpg

http://www.louisianadigitallibrary.org/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/CLF&CISOPTR=9260&CISOBOX=1&REC=12

http://www.louisianadigitallibrary.org/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/CLF&CISOPTR=9270&CISOBOX=1&REC=12

http://www.louisianadigitallibrary.org/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/CLF&CISOPTR=9130&CISOBOX=1&REC=10

[CSumption]

 What stops would the Panama Limited make in 1937? The 1970 Official Guide lists the following stops, but would the train have stopped at all these places in the 30s?

 

5	Train Number					6
Daily		Miles		Services		Daily
5 00P	Dp	0.0	Chicago, IL (Central Station) (CT)	R	Ar	9 30A
5 10P		6.6	63rd St., Woodlawn, IL			9 05A
5 35P		22.1	Homewood, IL	X		8 43A
6 03P		54.5	Kankakee, IL	R		8 08A
7 02P	Ar	126.5	Champaign-Urbana, IL	R	Dp	7 10A
7 12P	Dp				Ar	7 05A
7 48P		171.0	Mattoon, IL	R		6 18A
8 13P		197.9	Effingham, IL			5 53A
9 00P	Ar	251.1	Centralia, IL		Dp	5 12A
9 05P	Dp				Ar	5 07A
10 05P	Ar	306.9	Carbondale, IL (St. Louis via bus)	R	Dp	4 10A
10 15P	Dp				Ar	4 00A
11 13P	Ar	360.2	Cairo, IL	R	Dp	3 00A
11 15P	Dp				Ar	2 58A
12 04A	Ar	404.8	Fulton, KY		Dp	2 10A
12 15A	Dp				Ar	2 00A
1 01A		449.9	Dyersburg, TN			1 08A
2 28A	Ar	527.2	Memphis, TN	R	Dp	11 35P
2 45A	Dp				Ar	11 25P
F 3 52A		586.1	Batesville, MS			F10 17P
4 34A		626.3	Grenada, MS			9 33P
F 4 55A		649.2	Winona, MS			F 9 10P
F 5 24A		679.3	Durant, MS			F 8 41P
6 00A		714.5	Canton, MS			8 11P
6 32A	Ar	737.7	Jackson, MS		Dp	7 39P
6 42A	Dp				Ar	7 24P
F 7 15A		771.3	Hazlehurst, MS	X		F 6 53P
7 34A		791.8	Brookhaven, MS	X		6 33P
7 57A		815.7	McComb, MS	X		6 11P
8 46A		867.8	Hammond, LA (Baton Rouge via limo)			5 20P
10 00A		918.7	New Orleans, LA (Carrollton Avenue)	X		4 22P
10 15A	Ar	921.1	New Orleans, LA (Union Psgr. Tml.) (CT)	R	Dp	4 15P

 

[icrr2613]

CSumption

I'm looking for information about the Panama Limited in the 1930s.

Of course, this would have been in the heavyweight era, so the cars would have been painted the drab Pullman green.  Power most likely would have been a 2400-class 4-8-2, along if the train was short, one of IC's later 4-6-2's might have been on the point.  Double heading would have been rare, unless the train was heavy with extra cars (ie, around the holidays) or running late.