I'm looking for information about the Panama Limited in the 1930s. What was the journey like? How fast did the train go? What would a passenger see out the window at various places along the way? Any personal experiences you're willing to share would be most welcome. And if you can recommend any good books or websites, I'd really appreciate that too.
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I can't give you any great detail about the Panama Limited of the thirties beyond what two Official Guides of the period show. Other posters may well have more information, especially as to where to find accounts of riding this great train in that period.
In January of 1930, the Panama Limited was all-Pullman, and offered sections, compartments, and drawing rooms. "Ladies maid, also bath, barber and valet service" (not found on every train) were provided. An extra fare was charged. Besides the cars that were sleeper space only, it carried an observation car which had private rooms, a diner, and a buffet car.
It was scheduled to leave both Chicago and New Orleans at 12:30 p. m., and arrive at 9:30 a. m. Southbound, you could expect it to be dark by the time you reached Centralia, and you might see daylight from McComb on in to New Orleans. Northbound, you could expect the sun to set north of Canton, and to rise north of Champaign. Of course, in the summer you would have more daylight than in the winter. You would certainly see the west shore of Lake Pontchartrain and the comparatively flat land between there and New Orleans, and the hills and farming country north of Centralia.
Chicago to New Orleans was 921 miles, so the average speed was not quite forty-four miles an hour. Sixty miles an hour may have been the fastest it went.
In November of 1937, its services were not quite as posh, still all-Pullman with extra fare, of course, but with only bath and valet service shown, and a club car instead of a buffet car. The schedule was a little faster, leaving at 1:00 p. m., and arriving at 9:00 a. m., with an average speed of forty-five and a half miles per hour.
Johnny
Thanks so much for your help. What are the "Official Guides" of the period and where would I be able to find them?
Do you know what happened when the train got to Cairo? It sounds like in the early days the passengers had to cross the river on a ferry. Was this still the case in the late 30s?
The Official Guide was a big book printed regularly (monthly??) that listed all US railroads and connections, their passenger trains, number of locomotives, cars, employees etc. Old ones turn up from time to time on ebay or flea markets. I think a few have been reissued over the years.
If there was a time when passengers had to ferry at Cairo IL it must have been back before the Civil War.
One thing to consider when imagining the trip is that in 1930 segregation laws still existed. Once the train coming from Chicago got into the South it would have to have either segregated cars with dividers, or separate "Jim Crow" cars for black passengers to ride in. If you were white the only blacks you'd probably see would be a Pullman porter or a steward in the dining car.
The full name of the "Guide" was The Official Guide of the Railways and Steam Navigation Lines of the United States Porto Rico Canada, Mexico and Cuba. It was published monthly and was of great value to railroad officials, passenger and freight agents, and the traveling public. As stix said, it contained almost all the information anyone concerned with rail transportation needed (in 1955, an issue contained more than 1500 pages). From time to time, back copies are republished (the ads are usually in Trains Magazine).
As to the crossing of the Ohio at Cairo, a new line, which connected the IC with a system of roads that went to New Orleans, was completed in 1873. Before this new line was built, the IC had a connection with the Mobile and Ohio Railroad which used a carferry between Columbus, Kentucky, and Cairo. The M&O carried traffic between Coulumbus and Jackson, Tennessee, where it connected with a system of roads that led down to New Orleans. In 1874, the IC took control of these other roads and, eventually, they were merged into the IC. Even then, there could be no through service between Chicago and New Orleans because the track south of Cairo was five foot gauge (in keeping with southern practice). On July 29, 1881, all five foot gauge track in the South was changed to standard (four feet, eight and a half inches) gauge.
Wikipedia tells us: The Panama Limited was inaugurated February 4, 1911, and was operated by the IC until Amtrak came into operation. Also, the train was temporarily discontinued from 1932 to 1935 because of low ridership. The service was reinstituted on December 2, 1935, on an eighteen hour schedule.
wjstixOne thing to consider when imagining the trip is that in 1930 segregation laws still existed.
I recall seeing or reading somewhere that IC was one of the first US railroads to allow blacks to move up from fireman to engineer. Apparently this seemed to work OK, except through Kankakee Ill. If the locals found out that a black engineer was working with a white fireman with less seniority, they would start shooting at the cab! The engine crews' soon learned that the black crewman had to be sitting on the left side of the cab when they went through that town.
AgentKid
So shovel the coal, let this rattler roll.
"A Train is a Place Going Somewhere" CP Rail Public Timetable
"O. S. Irricana"
. . . __ . ______
The only segregation I recall the Pullman company practicing was segregation of sections. The would not allow one white and one black to share one section and tried to avoid having blacks in a section across from whites, doing this by assinging blocs of numbers in cars. In private rooms, if a black could afford a private room, he could be in the same car as whites, because the privacy of the room provided segregation. The first lightweight diners for the still all-Pullman Panama had the usual Jim Crow glass separating without door the two tables at the end of the car nearest the kitchen, and when blacks rode the train, that is where they would be served in the diner, but without black patronage, the two tables would be available for general use.
During the day of Apartheteid in South Africa, the Blue Train was operated similarly. Otherwise, pretty much separate trains!
And when the trolleybuses were still running in Johannesburg, I was told I could not ride them because they were only for blacks, and there were only diesel buses for whites.
In some of the reading I've done, they talk about the Pullman Porters responding to a call bell. They would apparently see which passenger had rung their bell by looking at an annunciator panel. Any idea what this annunciator panel would look like? And where would it be located on the train?
CSumption In some of the reading I've done, they talk about the Pullman Porters responding to a call bell. They would apparently see which passenger had rung their bell by looking at an annunciator panel. Any idea what this annunciator panel would look like? And where would it be located on the train?
Deggesty As to the crossing of the Ohio at Cairo, a new line, which connected the IC with a system of roads that went to New Orleans, was completed in 1873. Before this new line was built, the IC had a connection with the Mobile and Ohio Railroad which used a carferry between Columbus, Kentucky, and Cairo. The M&O carried traffic between Coulumbus and Jackson, Tennessee, where it connected with a system of roads that led down to New Orleans. In 1874, the IC took control of these other roads and, eventually, they were merged into the IC. Even then, there could be no through service between Chicago and New Orleans because the track south of Cairo was five foot gauge (in keeping with southern practice). On July 29, 1881, all five foot gauge track in the South was changed to standard (four feet, eight and a half inches) gauge.
The M&O did ferry cars across the Mississippi River between Columbus, KY, and Cairo, IL (and across to Bird's Point, MO). This service lasted from the 1850's until the M&O extended its line from Columbus to East Cairo, KY, which opened on Nov. 1, 1881. At that point the Columbus ferry service was abandoned.
In late 1873 the Mississippi Central (not to be confused with the MC that was taken over by the IC in 1967) completed its line to Filmore, KY, which is across the Ohio River from Cairo, IL. At that point the IC began ferrying cars across the river on its own ferry boat. On the Kentucky side of the river there was a steam powered winch, which raised each car so that the trucks underneath could be swapped out. This allowed cars to run through from Chicago to New Orleans. Of course, this was a rather slow process, which was eliminated when the "Southern Lines" were changed to standard gauge.
Incidentally, after IC opened its Cairo bridge in 1889, the M&O continued to use its East Cairo-Cairo ferry until 1899, when it was granted trackage rights across the bridge. When that happened, IC bought the M&O ferry "W.B. Duncan" and then moves it to IC's Ohio River ferry service between Paducah, KY, and Brookport, IL. The "Duncan" is also known to have briefly served the Helena-East Helena ferry, and perhaps at Henderson, KY.
CSumptionI'm looking for information about the Panama Limited in the 1930s.
Of course, this would have been in the heavyweight era, so the cars would have been painted the drab Pullman green. Power most likely would have been a 2400-class 4-8-2, along if the train was short, one of IC's later 4-6-2's might have been on the point. Double heading would have been rare, unless the train was heavy with extra cars (ie, around the holidays) or running late.
What stops would the Panama Limited make in 1937? The 1970 Official Guide lists the following stops, but would the train have stopped at all these places in the 30s?
New Orleans Union Station 1892-1954
http://nutrias.org/exhibits/choochoo/unionstation.jpg
http://nutrias.org/exhibits/choochoo/franck122.jpg
http://www.louisianadigitallibrary.org/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/CLF&CISOPTR=9260&CISOBOX=1&REC=12
http://www.louisianadigitallibrary.org/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/CLF&CISOPTR=9270&CISOBOX=1&REC=12
http://www.louisianadigitallibrary.org/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/CLF&CISOPTR=9130&CISOBOX=1&REC=10
I should have not used the words "first lightweight diners" in a previous response. If my memory is correct, all dining cars ever used on the streamlined Panama Limited in regular service were thoroughly rebuilt heavywieghts that matched the lightweight equipment in appearance but still ran on six-wheel trucks, thus indicating they remained heavyweights. But they definitely had the end of seating area glass, with frosted glass decoration "Jim Crow" partition.
daveklepper I should have not used the words "first lightweight diners" in a previous response. If my memory is correct, all dining cars ever used on the streamlined Panama Limited in regular service were thoroughly rebuilt heavywieghts that matched the lightweight equipment in appearance but still ran on six-wheel trucks, thus indicating they remained heavyweights. But they definitely had the end of seating area glass, with frosted glass decoration "Jim Crow" partition.
wanswheel New Orleans Union Station 1892-1954
CSumption What stops would the Panama Limited make in 1937?
7
Train Number
8
Daily
Miles
Services
1 00P
Dp
0.0
Chicago, IL(Central Station)(CT)
R
Ar
9 00A
1 11P
6.6
63rd St., Woodlawn, IL
8 43A
XX
22.1
Homewood, IL
X
2c07P
54.5
Kankakee, IL
7c46A
3 30P
126.5
Champaign-Urbana,IL
6 10A
3 35P
6 05A
4c20P
171.0
Mattoon, IL
5c14A
4c50P
197.9
Effingham, IL
4c45A
6 00P
251.1
Centralia,IL
3 45A
6 05P
3 40A
7 10P
306.9
Carbondale,IL Lv St L 4 45P, Ar St L 7 20A (through cars)
2 30A
7 18P
2 25A
8 35P
360.2
Cairo,IL
1 20A
8 40P
1 15A
404.8
Fulton,KY
449.9
Dyersburg, TN
12 10A
527.2
Memphis,TN
9 20P
12 20A
9 10P
586.1
Batesville, MS
2 22A-2 27A
626.3
Grenada, MS
7 05P-7 10P
649.2
Winona, MS
679.3
Durant, MS
4 18 A-4 21A
714.5
Canton, MS
5 25P
5 00A
737.7
Jackson,MS
4 45P
5 05A
4 40P
771.3
Hazlehurst, MS
791.8
Brookhaven, MS
6 31A-6 36A
815.7
McComb, MS
3 03P-3 08P
7 39A
867.8
Hammond,LA (Baton Rouge vialimo)
2 07P
8 50A
918.7
NewOrleans, LA (CarrolltonAvenue)
1 07P
921.1
NewOrleans, LA (UnionPsgr. Tml.)(CT)
I tried to enter the 53rd Street (5.1 mi) stop in Chicago, but had difficulty, so here are its times: SB, 1 08 pm; NB 8 46 am. Of course, the old Union Station was used in New Orleans; NOUPT was built right next to the old station. "c" in a time indicates a conditional (more restricted than a flag) stop; "XX" indicates that the train did not stop. I failed to check on the Hammond-Baton Rouge connection (it is not shown in the Chicago-New Orleans schedule); there may have been none at that time. In the sixties, at least, the service was operated by a man known as "Panama" Pinton; I rode with him on 12/26/64 because the Panama was running late and I feared that I would not make my connection with the KCS in NOUPT.
Thank you so much! This is enormously helpful!
It´s from the 20´s, but I thought it still might be interesting for you:
Here is a picture of a "Mardi Gras" parlor car of the Panama Limited in 1925:
On a Pullman sleeper with chairs that pulled down into berths, how many berths would there be per car?
CSumption On a Pullman sleeper with chairs that pulled down into berths, how many berths would there be per car?
There was a great variety in the combinations of sections and private rooms, and some cars had only private rooms (such as seven compartments & two drawing rooms or six compartments & three drawing rooms).
Generally, until the bedroom (single or double) was designed, all of the berths in a car, except one lower in a drawing room, were based on the section--which had two seats facing each other that were made down into a lower berth, and had an upper berth that swung down from the wall. The third berth in a drawing room was a sofa seat with a back that was swung down to provide the berth.
The above is correct, but the most common Pullman sleeping car, from the 1920's until lightweights with roomettes predominated in the post-WWII era, was the 12-section one drawing room car, with men's room at one end, women's at the other, separate facilities in a annex for the drawing room. With three berths in the drawing room and 24 berths in the sections, the total was 27 berths for the car. These were the cars commonly called "dreadnaughts" or "twelve-and-one's."
The facing seats in the Pullman sections were actually wide enough for two people. IN emergency use day service as parlors or a coaches, often four people would be assigned to a section if the train was sold out. Experienced this directly or by first-hand report on the Day Express, the State of Maine equipment making a second trip during WWII (one round trip each day instead of just one way, WWII and shortly after only), and when a Florida streamliner, or the Southerner was very late northbound, it would be turned at Philadlephia, or even Washignton, and orten Pullman section heavyweight sleepers would be used as the make-up train to complete the passengers' journeys and to provide the southbound connection.
CSumption, in case you are interested, here is the consist of the Panama Limited from the November, 1937 Guide:
Chicago-New Orleans: 1 each--2 drawing room, 3 compartment observation, 8 section, 5 double bedroom, 14 section, diner, & club car
Chicago-Gulfport: 1 8 section, 5 double bedroom
St. Louis-Carbondale: cafe lounge
St. Louis-New Orleans: 1 10 section, 2 double bedroom, 1 compartment.
Several comments on the Panama Limited in 1930:
The stop in Cairo was actually in North Cairo as, after the bridge was complete, the city was on a stub track. Several trains did go down the stub, but most did not.
Generally, blacks were not allowed as passengers on the Panama – that’s what made all-Pullman trains popular in the Jim Crow South. It’s not like many Delta sharecroppers rode in sleepers anyway, but blacks were shifted to other trains. In Chicago, all people of color had tickets to the deep south stamped “Boulevard.” This stood for South (now MLK) Boulevard, the heart of the city’s black belt. For passengers going to Dixie, this steered then to a segregated coach – the railroad didn’t want to shuffle passengers to meet the required segregation laws when they crossed the Ohio River . So segregation was practiced, to some extent, in the Land of Lincoln. The major problem with this system was with passengers ticketed by and interchanging from other lines.
As for the Panama, it appears that most people of color were steered to the Creole, which in later years only had a sleeper as far south as Memphis. By the way, in the South, black sleeping car patrons and porters slept on sheets dyed blue. I’m told the Smithsonian has one in their collection, but know of no others . The Illinois Railway Museum has a heavyweight Pullman , the John McLoughlin, that likely served to carry people of color and it would like to find a “Boulevard” ticket to display.
As for the diners, the separate Jim Crow section allowed them to be used in pool service, not just on the Panama. The segregated dining section was only enforced south of the Ohio River, where it was required. The 1941 Panama consist, the first streamlined set, originally was designed with a “Colored” sleeping section and a separate buffet. It was not built to that design. On trains other than the Panama, several historians relate that there was a ritual for colored passengers migrating north. On the Ohio River bridge, they would go to the dining car and buy a Coke. Most had never sat at a table with a white people and this ritual was considered a rite of passage.
Interesting !! I never heard about the blue sheets before. The IC trip would be an experience shared by thousands of blacks that migrated from the delta to Chicago, including many of the great postwar bluesmen.
Since WW2 travel was mentioned, I seem to recall that in troop movements sleeping cars were normally assigned with three soldiers or sailors per section. Two would sleep in the lower berth and one in the upper....
http://home.mindspring.com/~railroadimages/images/kidupper/kidupper.jpg
Up to about 1966 when coaches (which were billed as the Magnolia Star) were added to the Panama's consist I had always considered it to be an all Pullman train. However it did carry a parlor car between Chicago and Carbondale and another between Memphis and New Orleans. The note beside these two cars in the equipment section of circa 1950's OG's states "Illinois Central Tickets". This suggests the parlor cars were IC owned and operated which would technically drop the Panama from the ranks of the all Pullman trains of that time.
I'd be interested to learn when the parlor car services started. Did the unstreamlined Panama of the 1930's carry parlor cars, were they added in the early 40's when the train was streamlined, or were they added sometime after WWII? Hopefully someone like Johnny who has OG's for a number of years in this time frame will research this and post a reply.
Mark
This link is to larger image of the 1942 New Haven ad that Stix posted above.
http://explorepahistory.com/images/ExplorePAHistory-a0c0k2-a_349.jpg
"Nelson Metcalf was just into his second year as a copywriter with the Colton agency in Boston when he was told to write an ad for its railroad client explaining how delays in passenger service, so irritating to regular riders, were due to the priority to move troops. The Kid In Upper 4 was scheduled for one insertion in the New York Herald Tribune. The day it appeared, Elmer Davis, head of the Office of War Information, ordered that it be run in newspapers around the country."
KCSfan I'd be interested to learn when the parlor car services started. Did the unstreamlined Panama of the 1930's carry parlor cars, were they added in the early 40's when the train was streamlined, or were they added sometime after WWII? Hopefully someone like Johnny who has OG's for a number of years in this time frame will research this and post a reply. Mark
I’m sorry to be delayed in responding to the question about parlor cars on the Panama, but I was out of commission for three days last week.
The Guides and IC timetables that I have dated prior to 1942 show no parlor service between Chicago and New Orleans.
The earliest timetable I have with the new equipment, March, 1944, shows a parlor-lounge car between Jackson and Gulfport (no through sleeper), which is not what was asked about.
The March, 1947, timetable shows no parlor car at all.
The April, 1948, Guide shows a parlor-lounge St. Louis–Carbondale.
The December, 1948, timetable shows a parlor car (IC tickets) Chicago and Carbondale.
The 9/30/51 timetable shows a twin unit diner (owned and probably staffed by the IC) (the diners on the re-equipped train were owned by the IC) and parlor cars Chicago–Carbondale and Jackson–New Orleans.
The 4/26/53 timetable shows parlor cars Chicago–Carbondale and Memphis-New Orleans.
The 10/29/61 timetable shows only the Chicago-Carbondale parlor.
The 7-1-69 issue is the last timetable I have showing this parlor; thereafter a club-lounge is shown operating Chicago–Carbondale.
After one of the observation cars I do not remember if it was "Gulfport" or "Memphis") was wrecked in 1965, an IC parlor was operated in its place; I rode it Brookhaven to Jackson that July.
Many "all-Pullman" trains carried RR-owned and operated diners; I do not believe that a non-Pullman operated parlor disqualifies a train from being called "all-Pullman," since it was still a first-class only train.
How long did it take for the Panama Limited to cross the Mississippi? Did it have to slow down? Did it screech or squeal when it went over the bridge?
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