Hmm, let's see. Metropolitan Railways (or its predecessors and successors) at various times had horse, cable, battery, compressed air and conduit electric operation. The battery and compressed air were attempts to avoid cable, but in the end cable was installed, even on a crosstown line considered "too light" for cable. New York still had horse operation on one line until the 1920s. Third Avenue Railway System experimented with battery cars in the Bronx in the 1920s, hoping that then-current batteries could hold enough charge for a Birney-sized car (They did, but the test ended without any further battery use).
You wandered all over the map. Metropolitan was the overall leasing company, but the various systems did retain ownership and reverted to operate their lines after Metropolitan went bankrupt. You mentioned all forms of power except one of the two most obvious and long-lasting in New York, and you mentioned one form of power that was only experimental and this was not battery. One of the systems, and only one, successfully did replace horsecars for a while with battery cars, but they were not much faster, battery costs and replacements exceeded estimates, and eventually one or two of these lines were very early bus converstion by a basically streetcar company, or just abandoned altogether, in a few cases taken over by a specific bus company. Note the time frame. Near the end and for many prior years, two forms, then one for the last few years. With your knowledge, should be obvious.
You might wish to do some research as to just which lines were operated for a time with battery cars. And what became of the specific cars used. You will find it of considerable interest.
Actually, the longest battery-car line was abandoned because of freight-train congestion, just about the time that plans were beginning to be considered for removal of the source of that congestion. The congestion existed on about 35% of the total rout.
All the company's battery-car lines were former horsecar lines, and the investment in the battery cars was by no means totally wasted.
Hint: One of the last battery-car lines was the 110th Street Crosstown. Its western end was at the 125th Street Ferry Terminal, and part of its rout was on 125th Street. The remenants of a disused switch gave evidence of its formet existance into 1947.
The transit service provided on most of the portion of 110th Street that this battery streetcar line covered, after the battery cars quit, was provided only by double-deck 5th Avenue coach buses.
This was NOT the battery car line subject to freight-train interference.
RC: Should I give you another hint or ask a new question? Maybe this topic is not of interest?
The battery and compressed air operation I noted both ocurred before some of the lines were converted to cable, so they were noted as experimental. I suppose some New York lines could have used steam dummies as well, though I don't recall any off hand.
I thought I told you already that one of the major companies that was for a time leased by Metroplitan, used battery cars, I believe there were a total, in successful revenue serviced. but that replacement battery costs, declining patronage, and in the case of the first abandonment, freight train interference, doomed the service.
So battery propulsion is one, and the other four are are obvious.
The unsuccessful battery operation on one of the Metropolitan's Broadway and Seventh Avenue Railway's crosstown lines was actually replaced by conduit operation in the 1890s. It was tried as an alternative to cable, in which the company was heavily involved at the time. Denver's successful test of conduit operation (technically successful, but not cost-effective - all later Denver Tramway electric lines used overhead wire) led to its trial and widespread adoption in New York, where overhead was not an option.
but this comjpany learned from the Metropolitan experience, had extensive condujit operation, did not wish to spend the money for lighter horse-car lines still running, and used 100 (at times) battery cars in regular operation for over six or seven years. The investment in these cars was not entirely lost. In fact, what became of them started a new approach on its other lines. All the battery lines except for one or two lost all sevice, but one or two see buses today.
Now just what company do you suppose it was. Then the other four power sources are obvious.
Some of the lines reverted to their former owners after Metropolitan lost control and then joined the Third Avenue Railway System or New York Railways.
There is enough information on this thread for you to choose between the two in answering the question. Don't guess, just study the posts and come up with the correct answer. Remember, the investment in the single-truck battery cars was not completely wasted.
110th st was TARS - part of it was originally cable. The lower Manhattan lines were New York Railways except for 42nd. There was also one line that crossed into the north end of Manhattan on overhead wire - the only one to do so on surface streets (the non-TARS Queensboro Bridge lines terminated below street level.)
A couple of notes: A major use of the battery cars (supplanting unworkable compressed-air cars, which had been tried as early as 1881 on the Third Avenue El) was crosstown service -- valuable because of their ease in crossing conduit, cable, etc. systems on the north-south routes at grade.
Mentioned was the problem with their battery chemistry. I haven't found a reference for the specific battery type used, but I was informed that 'fuming' was the problem, which made me think of Prof. Page's abortive chemistry as described in Silliman, the Daniell cell, and some other chemical whoppers for use 'in public'.
Interestingly enough, I see some indication that the Beach cars (which used nickel-iron batteries IIRC) were quite successful in their use on LIRR, working from 1912 straight through to installation of full third-rail (which permitted much heavier, longer, faster trains immediately) in 1926.
Was the 'subsequent use' of the battery investment related to use of the cars for fill-in service crosstown in bad weather, notably snow, where the conduit system became packed or unworkable? I could find no evidence that the battery cars were rebuilt into something like one-man operation or center sections of articulated cars after 1932, when the company stopped using them in Lower Manhattan.
rhc: The lower Manhattan lines that New York Railways operated and that did not get either conduit or battery operation remained horsecar lines. Third Avenue did use battery cars on the Belt line, and certain crosstown lines, that other operators took over for bus operation, and some of these did go into New York Omnibus, before city/state takeover. The part of 110 crosstown that was cable was the part on 125th Street shared with 125's X (crosstown), which got conduit. Well, you did finally name Third Avenue Railway System, so you can ask the next question.
TARS had 100 battery cars. The central body portions were spliced together to make the first 50, 101-150, of the home-built lightweights of 1935. This then set the pattern for making cars using new material, as well as used seats, trucks homemade to Brill E-177 patterns used scrap from scrapped maximum traction trucks, etc. The homebuit lightweights were 101-200, 301-400, 551 Brill aluminum peter-witt sample. 552-600 peter-witt aluminum, 601-125 peter-witt lightwieght steel with two corrigations below belt rail, 626-685, regular design, the last built for New York, 1939. 626-645 conduit originally, 1947 to pole, rest pole orginallly.
I'll come back with more info on the TARS battery cars. Meanwhle, look forward to your qestion.
There were two cities, both reachable by interurban from Chicago, where the interurbans shared dual-gauge track with the local streetcars. One of the two cities also ran wide-gauge cars on a large bridge shared with a major railroad.
Although it was physically possible to run an electric car on its own wheels to both cities, it was by no means a direct route to either one, and the route to one required a car equipped for dual voltage (600/1200) operation.
One city is Louisville, KY, reached by Chicago Surface, Gary Railways, Northern Indiana, Yona, and Indiana Railroad through Indianapolis. The Daisy Line interurban shared the bridge with the Indiana Railroad and was the same wide gauge as Louisville local streetcars, even ending its operations with the same kind of Peter Witt streetcars. Was the other city Erie, PA? With 1200V operation required on the Lake Shore?
Louisville is one of the correct answers - reached by Indiana Railroads ex-Interstate line which was equipped for 1200 volts. Louisville Railroads also shared the Big Four's bridge across the Ohio with a mixed gauge gantlet. Erie was standard gauge, with connections to both Ohio (short-lived, poorly built and early abandoned) and New York (well built and relatively long-lasting - into the 1930s, anyway). There were several other standard gauge cities in Pennsylvania. The remaining broad gauge city is one of the largest and most important cities in its state, and hosted several interurbans. Note that I'm NOT counting Pittsburgh PA, because it couldn't be reached on standard gauge track - you had to change gauges at New Castle PA even though you could get there under wire.
Youngstown, Ohio. Or were the Cincinnati streetcars broad gauge, since I know one interuban there was broad gauge. At time there was something very unusual there, triple-gauge track. But I am unsure whether the narrow gauge was steam or an interurban. The interurban to Dayton connecting to Chicago eventurally was standard gauge and became part of the C&LE. Actually there were two standard gauge routes to Dayton, if my memory is correct.
Are you sure the Intrerstate line though Seymore to Louisville was 1200V? I do not remember the Indiana RR High Speeds being dual-voltage, and they ran the regular service for nine years before abandonment. Or did Indiana RR change the electrification?
Name at least 5 steam locomotives when built were originally in some form of green paint.................
markreeveerName at least 5 steam locomotives when built were originally in some form of green paint...
I am tempted to be a wiseacre and say "D16a, E6s, K4s, K5s and T1" (those being five out of a great many more locomotive classes that featured the G in DGLE...)
Or mention an equivalent number of classes on the English Southern Railway (after which, it is said, our Southern had its own 'green' scheme that is part of the actual question being asked) -Russian P36, the Polish streamliner, apple-green LNER including no few A4s ...
But I suspect you mean locomotives built in North America that were in green paint (and not green Russia iron jackets, either, although the D&RGW passenger power in the late '20s built to imitate that look ought to count...)
Southern Ps4, various Northern Pacific classes including the Northerns and the class O high-speed Mikado, and the B&O Presidents spring to mind as qualifying, if PRR is ruled out as being excessively black or only counts as one railroad. If I recall correctly, the massively-underrated A2a Berkshires came in green, and so did the Rutland's last Mountains.
Baldwin had a 'house color' that was a kind of olive green, and plenty of locomotives were delivered to various roads in it. Isn't the recent switcher finished at Steamtown in that color, or equivalent?
Oh great...Brunswick Green vs. it's Black for the millioneth time.
I would say the Pennsy as well, and a lot more than 5. CNR Mountains and streamlined Northerns, Reading, D&H, B&O, lots of Northern Pacific and the quintessential aforementioned Southern Ps4. Lots in Great Britain.
Youngstown was standard gauge. Cincinnati did have broad gauge track (I should have remembered that from a photo of Cincinnati Car Co.'s test track, with dual overhead wire). I was actually looking for Columbus OH, which had a fair amount of dual gauge track. Since Dave got the correct answer, even though it wasn't the one I was looking for, it's his question.
As built, what became the Indiana RR line between Indianapolis and Louisville was electrified at 1200V between Seymour and Sellersburg, about 40 miles. IRR lessor Indiana Service Corp may have converted it to 600 prior to IRR lease, though I can't find any documentation either way. IRR High Speed 65 at the Illinois Railway Museum has HL-15E12 control which would indicate 1200V capability.
I never heard of an NP steam locomotive with green paint, but I believe that certain GN and SOU steam had green paint.
Ed Burns
NP-BN-BNSF from Minneapolis.
NP EddieI never heard of an NP steam locomotive with green paint, but I believe that certain GN and SOU steam had green paint.
And he, of all people on this forum, would certainly know!
This must be a Mandela Effect thing, but I was certainly thinking of GN with the green boiler and red cab roof
And why I left out the bullet-nosed Australian 3805, I do not know (and have no reasonable excuse...)
Meanwhile: when I was younger, I was absolutely sure that the ACL R-class 4-8-4s had tenders in two-tone green, a sort of 'mint' and a darker green. But modern wisdom says they were black and dark aluminum grey.
Yes, thanks NP Eddie...Great Northern not NP...only have a group of these in N Scale! I went down the same rabbit hole.
Staying with the Indiana Railroad. there is one successor railroad, not the bus companpy but the railroad that operates a bit of track once operated by IR.
What railroad is it, where located, what kind of business?
Southern Indiana Railroad (SIND) operates (or did until very recently) a bit of IRR track between Sellersburg IN and Speed IN to service a cement plant. GE 44-tonners replaced the former IRR motors in 1946. The 44-tonners were replaced at some point by Alco S-2s. There was also a gravel operation that had formerly been operated by IRR in Anderson IN that lasted until 1953.
Correct. As far as I know, Southern Indian still operates, although the name may be different and it may a be a one-shipper owned operation.
In addition to the small operation in Anderson to 1953, there was the Bickly Mine operation with a piece of the Terre Haut - Indianaplis line that lasted longer, including some center-of-the-road paved track. It may have continued until after 1953.
Now you have two questions to ask.
The Binkley Mine operation only lasted a couple of years after passenger service ended. It was IRR's last rail operation.
Here's a hanging curve. Only two of Indiana Railroad's "High Speeds" survived, one going east, one going west. Which interurbans bought them?
Easy as pie, and interestingly both were replacements for damaged or destroyed ex-C&LE cars. One was bought straight from the Anderson yards, either from the scrapper or directly from IR, the other from the Interstate Power company, which continued to run one trip each way each day Indianapolis - Seymore until a head-on meet wrecked the line car and one of the two High Speeds preserved for this service, because of a misunderstanding by the dispatcher-shop-forman-lineman of a telephone conversation between him and the one operator concerning the repair of a broken trolley rope after a dewirement. The operator had repaired the rope and the foreeman-dispatcher throught he was wanted to do the repair. Indiana Railroad itself never had a fatal accident or such a collision because orders were written down or when verbal repeated back from the operator to the dispatcher, and all movements requried formal orders except insulated track speeders.
One went to Crandic, Ceder Falls and Iowa City, the other to the Liberty Bell Line, Lehigh Valley Transit. Both operations survived well into the post WWII period.
The one that went to the Crandic is at Union, Illinois Railway Museum, while that from the LVT is at Kennebunkport, Seashore Trolley Museum. Branford-East-Haven (Shore LIne Trolley Museum) has an ex-Crandic C&LE car.
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