ןMy guess is that I was confused by the fact that the PRR actually had two Camden-Atlantic City lines, one the former direct narrow gauge, and the other through Glassboro?, more round-about, but I believe at one time electrified at 600V dc, trolley wire, the whole way, but then cut back to a suburban service out of Camden. I had forgotten that the PRR had a direct route in addition, and assumed lately that it was partly the old Reading direct line. The original electrification had wood railroad-roof mu cars, sort of a midway between classic interurbans and regular mu suburban, and then the PRR added steel MP54s with standard MP54 railroad roof bodies and owl-eyes ends, but with trolley poles instead of a pantograph and the same dc traction and control equpment as LIRR MP54s. The woods and steels ran in multple with each other. The woods were condemned as unsafe by some government authority, and there were not enough steels to make continiued electric operation worthwhile, so the remaining suburban service was converted to diesel.
The PRR also owned the Atlantic City streetcar system and the Ocean Electric interurban from Atlantic City to Ocean City. The Atlantic City streetcars system was noted for its "Miss America Fleet," the only bulk order for Brilliner streetcars that Brill recieved. These were the PCC's only competition and comparable in every way. They had a PRR type classification. Other systems, like Baltimore and Philadelphia, had one sample Brilliner but no more.
I should have noted that when the Clark Equipment - St, Louis Car Co. PCC Bluebird equipment was ordered, the system was private, BMT. During operation and scrapping, the BMT was city-owned, part of the New York City Transit System, NYCTA, or TA for short. The MTA and NY State involvement came after the Bluebirds were scrapped.
daveklepperthe PRR actually had two Camden-Atlantic City lines, one the former direct narrow gauge, and the other through Glassboro?, more round-about, but I believe at one time electrified at 600V dc, trolley wire,
Actually most of the line was 600 VDC third rail. The trolley wire was used in the towns where there were too many grade crossings for the third rail to be reliable, and where the towns mandated overhead wire for safety.
You are correct, and I think Ocean Electric may have used third rail also, not of course where in ran with the streetcars in Atlantic City.
The Atlantic City and Shore was the electric interurban between Atlantic City and Ocean City via Pleasantville and Somers Point. They used overhead wire while on the trackage of the Atlantic City streetcar system, third rail on the former WJ&S (PRR) to Pleasantville where they swung off onto the Somers Point branch and used overhead wire for the remaining run to Ocean City. The Somers Point branch freight service was provided by steam powered locals of the PRSL. The Somers Point branch was originally built to 42" gauge as a branch of the Philadelphia and Atlantic City Railroad. The P&AC became part of the Philadelphia & Reading empire and was standard gauged and upgraded to become an arch rival of the older Camden & Atlantic, which became part of the West Jersey & Seashore (PRR). The Somers Point branch became part of a West Jersey & Seashore predecessor during some of the legal manuevering which resulted in the P&AC ending up in the Reading's camp. The West Jersey and Seashore's alternate route into Atlantic City was the long-way-around line via Glassboro and Newfield. This was the subject of the third rail electrification of 1906, which also included the branch down to Millville. This line used overhead wire through Gloucester. Overhead wire was also used for a short time between Newfield and Millville and for a while in the City of Camden until Camden traffic was rerouted via the Van Hook Street line. The WJ&S discontinued electric service between Newfield and Atlantic City in 1931, but the third rail remained in place between Atlantic City and Pleasantville for the Atlantic City & Shore trolleys as long as such service ran (1948). The Camden-Millville electric service ended in 1949, mostly because of a PUC ban on the use of the wooden MU cars.
On to something new... This railroads passenger trains reached their western terminal from the east by travelling southwest, northwest, north, east, north and east before finally arriving, having crossed the main lines of all four of the station's other owners.
oops! I think?
rcdryeOn to something new... This railroads passenger trains reached their western terminal from the east by travelling southwest, northwest, north, east, north and east before finally arriving, having crossed the main lines of all four of the station's other owners.
I have to admit you guys did a great job of filling the time before I came up with the new question (reposted above for your convenience). The number of things I find out about on this forum is incredible.
Not certain, but I think the railroad with that circuitous route in Chicago was the Grand Trunk Western, the CN subsidiary.
After vacating Grand Central, the B&O in its last days of independent passenger service before Amtrak, had an even more round-about route to the C&NW station.
Or the answer to the quesiton might be the B&O to begin with. I will now do the reasearch if the Internet can help.
Yes, the B&O, not the GTW, and the actual trackage was owned by the B&OCT, the B&O Chicago Terminal, which had other owners at times besides the B&O and which still exists as a CSX subsidiary. The GTW route was relatively direct to Deaborn (?) if my memory is correct, just hot quite as direct as the PRR, NYC, and Erie, from the East. If my memory is correct, the Erie actually had the most direct and fastest rout. I remember riding the Capitol Limited into both Grand Central and into the Nothwester Station.
Grand Central, was in my opinion, by far the most beautiful, architecturally, of all Chicago stations, and it a reall shame that the building was destroyed. It should have been recycled as some kind of museum or art gallery with office space and restaurance. The concourse could have become another Chicago concert hall.
The GTW route was relatively direct, it just swung a bit further west. It entered the Chicago area at Griffith, crossed the C&EI at Thornton Junction, ducked under the Rock Island and crossed IHB/B&OCT at Blue Island, headed north between Western and Kedzie Avenues, crossing the Wabash at Ashburn and BRC at Hayford, turning east at 49th Street to connect with CWI just south of 47th Street.
Paul has the correct answer. GTW was one of the five owners of the Chicago and Western Indiana, and by extension Dearborn Station. On its way into Chicago via Valparaiso, Indiana it crossed the Erie, the Monon, the Chicago and Eastern Illinois and the Wabash before taking a hard right at 49th St and going east a few blocks to pick up the C&WI. AT&SF was a tenant at Dearborn, as was C&O (Indiana) before 1926, which GTW also crossed just east of the Indiana line.
The B&O's passenger route was east of GTW's south of 47th St and west of GTW's from 47th to Ogden along Western Avenue, then turned east for a straight shot to the B&O Bridge and Grand Central. The 1969 change to C&NW Station added only about 4 miles to B&O's route, but the only additional railroad crossed was the CMStP&P at Western Avenue. B&OCT was wholly owned by B&O, so there were no other owners (only tenants PM, CGW and WC(Soo)).
Pennsy's PCC&St.L (Panhandle) crossed every railroad entering Chcago except the CMStP&P and the C&NW, but the only other owner's lines it crossed entering Union Station were PRR(PFW&C) and CB&Q, since C&A was a tenant and it shared the CMStP&P approach.
SHOULD HAVE STAYED WITH MY FIRST ANSWER. CONGRATULATIONS PAUL!
CONSOLATION, AT LEAST I KNEW IT WAS CHICAGO.
It's hard to believe that this meets the 50-year rule. C&O's successful bid for control of South Shore was contested by another road before the ICC approved C&O's bid. Who was the other railroad and what did they get as a consolation prize?
The Monon bought up a bunch of CSS&SB stock in the early 1960s and even put the South Shore on its system map in some of its publications. South Shore fought off Monon control, eventually accepting C&O control instead. South Shore in turn granted Monon trackage rights to Burns Harbor (a major steel mill area) via Michigan City. Monon eventually sold its stock to the C&O. The trackage rights grant was seldom, if ever, used. The other points where the Monon was near the CSS&SB did not have direct track connection between the C&WI (Monon's entry to Chicago) and the CSS&SB. Those were Burnham Jct, in the Hegewisch (!) section of Chicago, and State Line Crossing, where the Monon joined the C&WI.
rcdrye, you've got it right. You get the next question.
The Monon trackage rights ran from State Line to Michigan City, and were exercised only once, as a demonstration. South Shore and CWI had an interchange at South Shore's Burnham Yard, which ran between Burnham Crossing and State Line. Up to about 1962, there was also a small interchange yard in Hegewisch, north of 134th Street.
interesting. Until sometime after WWII, the C&O did offer Cincinnati - Chicago passenger service of sorts. It was a daily daytime local, powered usually by an Atlantic. And it got no further than Hammond to Chiicago, with passengers expected to use the South Shore for the rest of the trip, tickets honored. Through passengers off the FFV, Sportsman, and George Washington wee expected to use the New York Central, which carried the through Pullmans. I do not know if there were any through coaches from the C&O on the Central, however, Apparenlty. the C&O and South Shore stations in Hammond were near each other.
One of the last interurbans buit, this line had two divisions, one sharing a steam road main line. Abandoned after 12 years and auctioned off for $500, its demise left two interurbans in its major city, one of which was gone in another two years.
The Western Ohio Railway and Power Co., one division east and north from Lima and the other division south to Piqua, with connection on the Dayton & Troy to Dayton, and with branches to Fort Laramie and Collina. The next interurban to quit was the Fort Wayne Lima RR Co., leaving the Cincinnati and Lake Erie.
Not sure where the joint use of steam-road tracks was.
The Ohio interurbans were fairly early (00s or 10s). This interurban didn't even begin operations until 1920.
In response to daveklepper, the C&O and South Shore stations in Hammond are about a mile apart. The South Shore station is on Hohman Ave. just south of Gostlin and I assume that C&O used the Erie/Monon station on Douglas just east of Hohman.
The Southern Pacific's interurban subsidiary in Portland. OR?
Wait, of course,
SP's Interurban Electric, with Sacramento Northern's interurban passenger service gone after two years and Key system remaining. The major city being Oakland, not SF, unless you include the SP ferries.
IE dated back to the teens. To recap, and add a couple of hints:
The system I'm looking for opened for business in 1920, with two divisions, running out of its home city in different directions, one division running mainly on a class 1 railroad's main line. When it folded in 1932, fetching $500 at auction, its main city had two remaining interurbans, of which one folded in 1934.
Additional hints:
Neither of the other lines ever got any all steel cars, and both of them ran limited services with colorful names. The one remaining line after 1934 had an end-to-end length of over 160 miles making it almost as long as the SN, but it never offered through service through the large city. Finally, all three lines shared the same terminal in the major city.
Well, it is obvious that the one remaining line with that end-to-end length was the Indiana Railroad, and the major city was Indianapolis. k
I will have to take some time to do what research I can on other interubans....
'Or do you mean the 160-mile long interurban never had all-steel cars, but still lasted until sometime after 1934? That would rule out Inianapolis and the Indiana Railroad. Maybe Dallas and Texas Electric as the survivor.
Reght. Texas Electric was the survivor, and the interurban you want is Texas Intgerurban,with one line to Denton almost entirely on Katy tracks, and the purpose-built line to Terrill. Have not looked up the name of the line abandoned in 1934. Texsas Interurban was sold in 1932.
You got it. Texas Interurban really had no business being built at all, and never covered either it its operating or capital costs. Texas Electric had "Bluebonnet" service to Waco, and the other line, Northern Texas Traction, had "Crimson Limited" service to Ft. Worth. The interurban terminal was owned by Dallas Railway and Terminal, the city system. Stone and Webster was involved in both DR&T and NTT in the early years. Texas Interurban's line to Denton was owned and dispatched by M-K-T. Two DR&T lines built for Texas Interurban service outlasted the interurban, in one case by more than 20 years. The Interurban Terminal was still in use by Trailways until their operations fizzled in the 1990s. Some TI work equipment, along with a lot of parts, ended up on DR&T. Texas Electric's rail operations lasted until 1948.
An amusement park was located on the outskirts of a certain medium-sized city. From downtown, and close by the railroad station, one could ride a lightweight one-man streetcar to the amusement park, and these came in two varieties, one variety being more modern with semi-automotive styling. An alternative was to ride a wood interurban car, one of only two wood cars remaining on this interurban line's roster, with the two wood cars being the only operationally double-end cars. The standard car on the interurban line, with hourly runs to a distant middle-sized city, were steel cars, with doors and traps at both ends, but normally setup for single-end operation, two-man for either one-car or two-car trains (mu), and a loop at each terminal. But the ride to the amusement park, on a branch of the interurban, involved a reverse move and switch from third-rail to trolley-wire power.
Name: Citiy 5 points
Distant City 4 points
Interurban line nickname: 4 points
Interurban line full name 4 points
Amusement Park name 3 points
Car builder of the more modern of the lightweigiht streetcars: 3 points
Name of the other streetcar lines running in the city in 1949-1950: 1 pt each
Additional rail and amusement park information on either city or both or between, 1 point for each item. (Paint, other stations, connecting railroads, conditions today, etc.)
I'm doing this without the book, so let's see how well it goes:
City: Scranton PA
Distant City: Wilkes-Barre PA
Interurban nickname: Laurel Line
Interurban Full Name: Lackawanna and Wyoming Valley
Amusement Park: Nay Aug Park
Car builder: Osgood-Bradley
Other Scranton streetcar lines: Petersburg, Green Ridge
The Laurel Line tunnel in Scranton, at 4700+ feet a third again longer than Pittsburgh's Mt. Washington Tunnel, is now part of the Steamtown/Electric City site. I seem to remember there being a big amusement park directly on the Lurel Line, at Wilkes-Barre?
There were a number of connecting interurbans, and the Scranton system itself had some long suburban/interurban lines, including one to Pittston. The Scranton sytem itself was a very early (1886) Van Depeole installation, with their usual platform-mounted motors and balky chain drive. Like the other VanDepeole systems, the cars were eventually replaced with Sprague-type cars.
Most of the Laurel Line ROW is intact, though without rails.
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