JonathanS wrote: JanOlov wrote:Great stuff fellas! Which were the big ore railroads besides the DM&IR?While not generally considered an "Ore Road" the Pennsy actually carried more ore than many of the "Ore roads". Pennsy carried ore from Cleveland to Youngstown, Pittsburg, Wheeling, Steubenville and many other mills in Western PA, Northern WV and Eastern Ohio. Additionally there was a fairly famous move of ore that ran from Erie to Mount Carmel PA where it was turned over to the Lehigh Valley for delivery to Bethlehem Steel. Ore was also carried from Cleveland to Steelton and Harrisburg PA. Foreign ore was unloaded in Pennsy's facility in Philadelphia and hauled west to Coatesville, Steelton, Harrisburg, and quite a bit was hauled all the way across the state to Pittsburgh.Bessemer & Lake Erie was used by US Steel as a conveyor to bring ore from Lake Erie into the US Steel mills around Pittsburgh.The Reading also had considerable ore business. They carried ore from various mines, Grace and Cornwall being two of the majors, to the Bethlehem Steel plants in Bethlehem and Lebanon. Ore unloaded at the Reading's Port Richmond facility in Philadelphia was hauled to Bethlehem, Conshohocken, Phoenixville, Pottstown, Harrisburg and a number of other minor mills.
JanOlov wrote:Great stuff fellas! Which were the big ore railroads besides the DM&IR?
While not generally considered an "Ore Road" the Pennsy actually carried more ore than many of the "Ore roads". Pennsy carried ore from Cleveland to Youngstown, Pittsburg, Wheeling, Steubenville and many other mills in Western PA, Northern WV and Eastern Ohio. Additionally there was a fairly famous move of ore that ran from Erie to Mount Carmel PA where it was turned over to the Lehigh Valley for delivery to Bethlehem Steel. Ore was also carried from Cleveland to Steelton and Harrisburg PA. Foreign ore was unloaded in Pennsy's facility in Philadelphia and hauled west to Coatesville, Steelton, Harrisburg, and quite a bit was hauled all the way across the state to Pittsburgh.
Bessemer & Lake Erie was used by US Steel as a conveyor to bring ore from Lake Erie into the US Steel mills around Pittsburgh.
The Reading also had considerable ore business. They carried ore from various mines, Grace and Cornwall being two of the majors, to the Bethlehem Steel plants in Bethlehem and Lebanon. Ore unloaded at the Reading's Port Richmond facility in Philadelphia was hauled to Bethlehem, Conshohocken, Phoenixville, Pottstown, Harrisburg and a number of other minor mills.
On the "receiving end" of things (that is, the Lake Erie ore ports and RRs) don't forget the Pittsburgh and Lake Erie. The NYC managed to get a hold of this line and kept it out of the Pennsy's hands which netted it a handsome little dividend maker. I seem to recall that for some years it was considered one of, if not the most, profitable lines in the country for it's size (basically, just a mainline from the lake to the Ohio River, not much in the way of branches).
wjstix wrote:Didn't Upper Michigan ("Yooper Country") have some 3-1/2' gauged railroads??
I am not aware of any 3 1/2-ft.-gage, but the Atlantic & Lake Superior and the Hecla & Torch Lake were 49-inch-gage as I recall. There was some explanation for the odd gage, but I would have to look it up to refresh my memory. I think it had something to do with mistakenly building the first locomotive to that gage, and then building the railroad to match.
wjstix wrote: As far as the ore, except for a few steel plants (like US Steel's plant in Duluth MN) basically all steel production was done in Chicago or cities east of Chicago, so there really wasn't a market to send ore west from MN, WI or MI. I believe Union Pacific did serve some western ore mines, but not sure where that ore went??
As far as the ore, except for a few steel plants (like US Steel's plant in Duluth MN) basically all steel production was done in Chicago or cities east of Chicago, so there really wasn't a market to send ore west from MN, WI or MI. I believe Union Pacific did serve some western ore mines, but not sure where that ore went??
Many years ago the Union Pacific had its own fleet of 100-ton mini-gons in service to haul iron ore to the U.S. Steel mill in Provo, Utah. The ore originated at the South Pass City mine located about 70-miles north of Rock Springs, Wyo. U.S. Steel's own railroad, powered by a matched set of F-units, hauled the ore for the first 60-miles or so. U.P. power and crews took over on a connecting branch that ran north of Rock Springs. The mine eventually played out, U.S. Steel's track was ripped up, and the steelmaker sold its mill to an independent operator.
Colorado & Southern also had an iron ore movement between Sunrise Mine located in east central Wyoming and the C.F.& I. steel mill at Minnequa (south Pueblo), Colorado. The ore moved in some really ancient open top hoppers, 70-to-77 ton capacity and equipped with solid bearing journals. The cars carried C.B.& Q., C.& S., and F.W.& D. reporting marks plus "Everywhere West" and "Route of the Zephyrs" (?) slogans. The Sunrise Mine too eventually played out and the C.F.& I. mill converted to processing mostly scrap steel. Today, I believe, that mill is owned by Schnitzer Steel of Portland, Ore.
jimrice4449 wrote: Finally, Bob Fryml could have save the worry about those postal clerks w/ guns by just using the mail slot next to the door which was a feature of all RPOs
Finally, Bob Fryml could have save the worry about those postal clerks w/ guns by just using the mail slot next to the door which was a feature of all RPOs
Jim:- The envelope was too large and too thick to fit through the slot, and there was no way for me to hand the envelope up to the clerks because the platforms, of the mail and express tracks, in Chicago Union Station, on both sides of The Milwaukee Road's Fast Mail R.P.O., were elevated. The guys working the mail in that car were so busy, they probably wouldn't have noticed me unless I walked in!
Best wishes! /s/ Bob
In the 1920's Great Northern's 4-8-2 "Marathon" earned it's name by making the entire run from Seattle to St.Paul with a train of silk from Japan. A steam engine making that long a run was unheard of, but by not changing engines they made the run in record time.
Silk decays rapidly, so it needed to be shipped in express reefers and gotten to it's intended customer ASAP to avoid it's deterioration. Silk trains usually had top priority, on the Great Northern the Empire Builder would even be put 'in the hole' to allow a silk train to race by.
onebiglizard wrote: What's a silk train?First time I've been to this forum..I like it! I'll be back!Bill FieldModeling St. Louis 1960 - I know exactly where the MoPac Barrett Tunnel is.
What's a silk train?
First time I've been to this forum..I like it! I'll be back!
Bill Field
Modeling St. Louis 1960 - I know exactly where the MoPac Barrett Tunnel is.
Welcome Aboard, onebiglizard!!Silk trains were high priority express trains in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. They usually ran on expedited schedules {akin to the crack passenger trains of the day}, because their cargo was a precious and delicate commodity. In many ways, they were the pioneers of the "unit train" concept we take fore granted today; a single commodity, shipped on a fast reliable schedule that avoided all the hazards of "normal" {ie, loose or single-car} railroading like yards, classification, etc.
Sadly, this particular source of rail traffic was easy prey for the emerging trucking {and for a time, airline freight} industries, which is why we no longer have them.
Ore trains beyond our borders:
In Australia, the Pilbara ore haulers handle tonnages that make DMIR look like a small-time operation.
In Brazil, there are two sizable operations, both are subsidiaries of CVRD. EF Vitoria a Minas is the well-known meter-gauge operation (home of the DDM45's) and EF Carajas is a broad-gauge railroad that operates in Brazil's Northeast.
Ore trains in the West: Utah
I have no idea if there's any activity today, but Union Pacific used to move iron ore from a mine connected to the Cedar City branch, probably taking it up to the USS facility near Provo.
The only time I saw it was in 1969. After getting off #6 at Lund (the junction of that branch with the main, and jumping-off point for tours of the National Parks), I was waiting for #5 to arrive in the other direction so that the shuttle bus would haul me to Cedar City. During the delay, I saw a pretty good show of ore-hauling.
Perhaps someone else more familiar with the area can bring this story up to date.
Thanks for the info JonathanS!
As the steel buisness consolidated many of the smaller mills purchased ingots from the majors and a good amout of ingots were hauled. This continues today where Ingots from countries of the former Soviet Union are unloaded at the former PRR facility in Philadelphia and hauled west to Steelton and Pittsburgh to be rolled.
Of course there was the Kaiser Steel ore line out west that was known for its GE U-Boats.
There were some less known ore roads down in Alabama, I will have to let others tell about them.
passengerfan wrote: The Great Northern dieselized the Fast Mail initially with EMD FTs followed by F-3s and F-7s. After it was combined with the Western Star in its final years it operated with EMD SDP40s and and SDP45s. An all mail train named the Pacific Zip operated between Chicago and Seattle for several years using F45s and SD45s. This train was an all Piggyback mail train with trucking companies wanting to pay for this premium service welcome. This train operated over the GN and CB&Q. Later BN.
The Great Northern dieselized the Fast Mail initially with EMD FTs followed by F-3s and F-7s. After it was combined with the Western Star in its final years it operated with EMD SDP40s and and SDP45s.
An all mail train named the Pacific Zip operated between Chicago and Seattle for several years using F45s and SD45s. This train was an all Piggyback mail train with trucking companies wanting to pay for this premium service welcome. This train operated over the GN and CB&Q. Later BN.
I always think it's interesting that in the sixties it wasn't uncommon to see several loaded piggyback flats stuck on the tail end of a passenger train. If someone modelled that you'd think they were being "Thumbz" from the NMRA Bulletin cartoon or something.
wjstix wrote: If you get serious about iron ore railroads, you'll probably want to get the two Iron Ore books recently put out, one covers MN and the other WI-MI.
Great stuff Stix! I will look these up, cheers....
In Minnesota: Besides the Missabe, Great Northern served the Mesabi Range. BN/BNSF continues to do so. The Soo Line and Northern Pacific operated a joint operation serving the Cuyuna Range in Central MN up til about 1980. Erie Mining Co. (later LTV steel) and Reserve Mining (later Norshore Mining) operated taconite plants and ore docks of their own.
In Upper Michigan: Soo Line, C&NW/Milwaukee joint operation, Lake Superior & Ishpeming.
In Wisconsin: Soo Line, Duluth South Shore and Atlantic...CNW might have served some mines in WI but not sure.
In Ontario: CN ran ore trains to docks at Port Arthur (now Thunder Bay). Algoma Central served Ore mines on the other side of Lake Superior, bringing the ore to Sault Ste. Marie.
If you get serious about iron ore railroads, you'll probably want to get the two Iron Ore books recently put out, one covers MN and the other WI-MI.
Of all these, DMIR and GN/BN were the biggest operations. The largest ore dock was built by DMIR in Duluth, but the largest collections of ore docks is the GN/NP/BN facility across the harbor in Superior/Allouez WI.
JanOlov wrote:Great stuff fellas! Tell me, how was those trains powered, did they get the best engines besides those on the top of the line trains? Also, did any ore travel westwards to the west coast, or did all ore go east to be made to steel and then travel west?
Generally mail trains were hauled by passenger engines, GN used the same 4-8-2's on the silk trains (like the famous "Marathon") as they did on the Empire Builder. Mail trains would usually get passenger engines that maybe had been pulling the road's top passenger train a few years before...so say a 4-6-2 that was bought to run on the top train in the teens might by the thirties be pulling mail and fast freights after being replaced on the top run by Mountains or Northerns...and those engines would be hauling mail and express in the forties and fifties when they were replaced by diesels.
wjstix wrote: A quick follow-up...one thing to keep in mind is that United States Steel owns / owned a lot of everything regarding steel and iron ore. I'd guess maybe half the iron mining companies in Minnesota's Mesabi Range were owned by US Steel. Their ore was hauled by the Duluth Missabe and Iron Range Ry. - also owned US Steel. (non US Steel companies used Great Northern.) The ore would be loaded into ore boats owned by US Steel. The ore would be unloaded at docks they owned in the lower great lakes, and would be shipped to their steel mills by other railroads they owned, like the Bessemer & Lake Erie in Ohio or the Elgin, Joliet & Eastern in Chicagoland.Ford had something similar, they owned ore mines in Minnesota and quite a few in Upper Michigan, they shipped ore in their own boats to Detroit, made their own steel there and used the steel to make cars.
A quick follow-up...one thing to keep in mind is that United States Steel owns / owned a lot of everything regarding steel and iron ore. I'd guess maybe half the iron mining companies in Minnesota's Mesabi Range were owned by US Steel. Their ore was hauled by the Duluth Missabe and Iron Range Ry. - also owned US Steel. (non US Steel companies used Great Northern.) The ore would be loaded into ore boats owned by US Steel. The ore would be unloaded at docks they owned in the lower great lakes, and would be shipped to their steel mills by other railroads they owned, like the Bessemer & Lake Erie in Ohio or the Elgin, Joliet & Eastern in Chicagoland.
Ford had something similar, they owned ore mines in Minnesota and quite a few in Upper Michigan, they shipped ore in their own boats to Detroit, made their own steel there and used the steel to make cars.
Henry Ford built the DT&I to tap southern Ohio coal...for his Rouge Plant...the DT&I ran just that...Detroit and Toledo to Ironton Ohio at the very bottom of the state....it also became a "belt line" for Ford to a degree.....side note...Thoms. Edison convinced Ford to string wire....80 Years later some of the cement overhead supports still stand.....next tme im in Detroit ill get some pictures of that......lil sidenote...the Rouge Plant was not only the largest manufacturing site on Earth for a long time but it was also the first plant to have all aspects of automobile mass production in one place.....raw materials came in and complete model T's came out.....my point being that during them times the more of the whole process you could control the better the profits....USS and Ford etc...any monoploy realy....the PFE and other fruit and veggie concerns aligned themselves with RR's to have the longhaul fresh produce market.....one of the first things to go to trucks ..................but wasnt that why the UP needed BIG power? to haul fast blocks of PFE refers
JanOlov wrote:Why all this hassle, why didn't they keep it on the railroad?
Did that ever really happen? Does it still?
One train I would like to be able to go back and see was the "White Mail" which IIRC on the Burlington from Chicago to St.Paul, then west on the GN. It's cars were all cream colored with green letterboards. Must have been quite a sight behind a 4-6-0 at speed coming up the Mississippi.
BTW my Dad's first job for the Post Office (1943) was picking up mail at the GN and MILW depots in Minneapolis. He got to be friends with one of the older RPO clerks who as noted was required to carry a sidearm (as was my Dad). Like most veteran RPO clerks, this guy had "the shakes" pretty bad from all the years rattling along on trains. Dad always told his friend that if something ever happened he should let my Dad (who was an expert shot) do the shooting...God knows where the bullets would have gone if the RPO clerk had pulled out his pistol and started shaking it around!!
AN insight into the relative cost of bulk RR and marine shipping can deduced from the PRR Sandusky branch (one of the last big-time steam operations). During the lake boat navigation season PRR would recieve solid trains of coal from N&W and L&N (via Louisville) for transshipment at Sandusky, via lake boat, to Gary and S. Chicago. Talk about circuity! I don,t know about the economics but it might have something to do w/ the boats returning w/ some kind of load versus mty.
Some of the merch. trains survived well beyond LCL. The SP "Overnights" CME and CMW (Zippers to employees) reverted to TOFC and were still operated (as 1st class trains) when I left SP in 1975 and might still be going.
I can't speak for other RRs, but the NYC ran the RPO in the final section of the Century. Pre-WWII photos show the Hudsons W/O green flags when the first car of the train is the RPO and no RPO when the flags are displayed
An interesting note on mail contracts is that the fastest road between 2 points got the contract for that route. Hence, the photos of Milw trains between Chicogo and St Paul frequently show a GN head end car while pix of GN's Fast Mail always show some Milw cars between St Paul and the Coast.
The Milwaukee Road hosted two overnight schedules called The Fast Mail for many years between Chicago and Minneapolis. With passenger power on the point, these trains carried mail storage cars, one or two R.P.O.s, and a rider coach.
The Official Guide listed times for no. 57 (the westbound schedule) but the train did not carry passengers. My guess is that 57 would be held for late connections from the Union Station served PRR and G.M.& O. plus whatever cross town traffic there might be from the ATSF, B&O/C&O, EL, and NYC. Thinking that no. 56 might not have made any connections with eastbounds at the Twin cities, this train had a more reliable schedule. No. 56 did have a rider coach listed and did have published station stops and times.
It was the end of an academic quarter in college when Green Bay Packers football coach Vince Lombardi died. The Sunday Chicago Tribune ran a special section about his life and career; and thinking about one of my college classmates who is a rabid "Cheesehead" and who was also home in Milwaukee, Wisc. that day, I packed the stories into a large manila envelope and mailed them on. After seeing a movie in The Loop, I walked over to Chicago Union Station, snuck onto one of the east side mail-loading platforms, and walked right into the open door of no. 57's working R.P.O. car. Even though I saw that the mail sorting clerks were packing pistols, the sight of those firearms didn't bother me at all. When I explained what I was doing there in that car, the boys were only too happy to see to it that the envelope would be properly postmarked and set out at Milwaukee Union Station. Upon seeing my friend a couple of weeks later, he did say that the envelope and its contents arrived the very next morning in fine shape! As I recall, I spent less than a quarter for postage!
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