We've all heard of 20th Century Limited, Empire Builder, Olympian and what not, right? We also know the importance of mail coming and being delivered in time and hopefully at the right destination. Which were the Century, Builder and Olympian of the US Mail trains back in the day? Which were the hottest ones?
One of the Milwaukee's famous BiPolars tows the Olympian backwards towards Tacoma Washington in this scene from the 30's.
Ore trains..... Is it true that I remember seing somewhere that ore trains were loaded at the mines and unloaded on to Lake Erie boats, only to unloaded on to new ore trains just some x amount of miles away further down the line? Why all this hassle, why didn't they keep it on the railroad? How did the ore traffic work up there in the ore district? How many railroads carried ore?
DM&IR ore dock.
Now just a question for fun here.... Is there a sort of "Railroad Hall Of Fame" for railroad photographers? We all have our favorites, who would you like to see in this if there isn't such a thing?
Richard H. Kindig, seen here on the right on his 90th birthday on February 13, 2006.
Jan - Even though many of the famous name trains would have an express mail car in the consist, I don't believe the railroads actually gave a name to the mail trains. They would normally just assign a number to it, and the railroad men would dub it "the fast mail"...AMTRAK still runs solid mail trains up and down the NEC.
The Great Lakes freeze up, and the steel mills in the rust belt need a steady diet of taconite pellets to run year round, hence the need for the big Lake boats and storage facilities. It is actually a shorter distance by water...
O. Winston Link actually has a museum dedicated to him in Roanoke, Virginia.
Cheers mate
But wasn't there a lot of hassle because of this, with all the different railroads trying to get access to the ore docks etc.?
I see thanks.
So no railroad had their own ore docks then?
About the mail trains, was there anyone that rose above the rest? I mean, most have probably heard of the Uganda Mail, supposed to be famous mailtrain. Could they sometimes have the right of way over the crack limiteds?
Baltimore had a bit of Ore I think it was the PRR that offered it with thier dock. Im not clear on the precise work but I can tell you that the B&O tried to load coal with thier dock and set records for speedy loading.
The seaport that offers the fastest service for the least cost to the Shipping Lines will get the business.
the Whiskey Island ore docks in Cleveland where built by the PRR i believe i know the old ore docks (C & P Docks) were Pennsy's......the Pennsy also had docks in Sandusky,Ashtabula and maybe Erie Pa........i remember seeing the Whiskey Is Huelett Unloaders working in the early 80's......that was a sight
Cheers lads... appreciated!
Those Huelett's, are they still standing or are they dismantled?
Many Railroads operated Fast Mail trains, the Great Northern, Chicago Burlington & Quincy and Santa Fe come immediatly to mind.
Most of these fast mail trains operated only with a rider coach or two on the rear. In the case of the Santa Fe the coach operated only across the state of Kansas. These trains were among the fastest scheduled trains on the RR. They stopped frequently to unload the mail and express often exceeding the time allowed for a particular stop than had to run like a bat out of **** to get to the next stop. All of these trains carried working mail cars as well.
In the last few years of the GN Fast Mail it ran combined with the Western Star complete with streamlined Observation. Unfortunately the Observation operated mid-train as the Western Star part of the combined train was mid train. The makeup was generally working mail and express cars behind the power than the passenger equipment of the Western Star and finally storage mail cars on the rear. At some stations it was necessary to stop twice and even three times. During the heavy Christmas Mail season the two trains were operated separatetly.
The Empire Builder, Super Chief and Denver Zephyr the premier trains of those three railroads also operated working Post Office cars. I know many other railroads operated Fast Mail trains but these three I am most familiar with.
Hope this helps Passengerfan
Let's not overlook the Fast Mail's little brother - the express / merchandise runs!!!The Pennsy, New York Central, MoPac, SP/Cotton Belt and Union Pacific {among many others} ran dedicated merchandise trains - on VERY tight schedules - in an attempt to win back less-than-carload {LCL} traffic that had been bled off by the emerging trucking industry during the late 1940's and early '50's.
By far the most famous example was Cotton Belt's original Blue Streak Merchandise{r}; it's original intent was the movement of expedited LCL freight. As the LCL business "hit the rubber" and moved off the rails, the SSW expanded the BSM's "mission statement" to include ANY time-sensitive freight. Still quite clear in my memory are the times my brother and I would railfan along the SSW-MP jointly-owned Chester Subdivision, usually basing our camp just south of Dupo. The BSM made frequent appearances, and was easily recognizable for the 4-7 big SD's on the point, and for the long cuts of PFE/UPFE reefers in the consist. And in two separate instances, the BSM was an ad-hoc unit train; nothing but a solid string of reefers.
SSW's parent Southern Pacific also had it's own version of the BSM briefly - The Overnighter. A typical fast LCL train of the day, it boasted uniquely painted boxcars, and usually drew passenger power {both steam and diesel} to ensure an expedited schedule. Like all other LCL trains, save the BSM, SP's Overnighter didn't survive the 1950's.
And on a final note, I've long been a fan of the LCL trains, as my avatar and signature line here indicate. The railroads actually pioneered the "get it there yesterday" concept long before UPS, FedEx, et. al even existed. The LCL legacy has had sporadic revivals since the original mid-20th-century salad days; Santa Fe's Super C, C&NW's Falcons, the old Central Vermont Rocket; and the leagacy has even evolved and grown - witness Norfolk Southern's Triple Crown RoadRailer subsidiary.
In Philadelphia the Pennsy and the Reading each had thier own ore unloading facilities. And add to that mix the US Steel plant just up river had its own unloading docks.
But to answer your original question as to why load the boats, only to unload them onto other trains... That was done for cost. Even with all the extra handling, the cost of the unloaders and all the rest, the lake boats are still much less expensive than an all rail trip.
The famous passenger trains often ran in multiple sections, and according to postal regulaions, mail had to be carried in the first section.
Dan
JanOlov wrote: I see thanks. So no railroad had their own ore docks then?About the mail trains, was there anyone that rose above the rest? I mean, most have probably heard of the Uganda Mail, supposed to be famous mailtrain. Could they sometimes have the right of way over the crack limiteds?
I don't know about the receiving end, but iron ore railroads own their own docks. The Missabe built multiple ore docks in Two Harbors and Duluth MN, Great Northern built several ore docks at Superior/Allouez Wisconsin, Northern Pacific built an ore dock next to the GN ones that for many years they shared with the Soo Line. Later Erie Mining Co. and Reserve Mining in Minnesota built their own ore docks for taconite pellet loading.
In recent years, "all rail" ore trains have become fairly common, but it generally was more economical to haul ore by boat. A typical ore train would run around 150 cars, it would take maybe 8-10 trains (or more) to fill an ore boat. Plus 24' ore cars weren't really built for long distance travel, and railroads needed to be sure to have enough empty cars around to serve the various mines - they probably didn't want to send their ore cars across the country. I suppose it would be hard to find a back load too, although some ore cars have been used to haul coal...although coal usually arrived in Duluth / Superior by boat.
Great Northern ran silk trains from Seattle to St.Paul in the 20's-30's that were often given top priority due to the fragile nature of the cargo, it wasn't unheard of for the Oriental Limited or later the Empire Builder to go "in the hole" to allow a silk train to pass.
A quick follow-up...one thing to keep in mind is that United States Steel owns / owned a lot of everything regarding steel and iron ore. I'd guess maybe half the iron mining companies in Minnesota's Mesabi Range were owned by US Steel. Their ore was hauled by the Duluth Missabe and Iron Range Ry. - also owned US Steel. (non US Steel companies used Great Northern.) The ore would be loaded into ore boats owned by US Steel. The ore would be unloaded at docks they owned in the lower great lakes, and would be shipped to their steel mills by other railroads they owned, like the Bessemer & Lake Erie in Ohio or the Elgin, Joliet & Eastern in Chicagoland.
Ford had something similar, they owned ore mines in Minnesota and quite a few in Upper Michigan, they shipped ore in their own boats to Detroit, made their own steel there and used the steel to make cars.
The Milwaukee Road hosted two overnight schedules called The Fast Mail for many years between Chicago and Minneapolis. With passenger power on the point, these trains carried mail storage cars, one or two R.P.O.s, and a rider coach.
The Official Guide listed times for no. 57 (the westbound schedule) but the train did not carry passengers. My guess is that 57 would be held for late connections from the Union Station served PRR and G.M.& O. plus whatever cross town traffic there might be from the ATSF, B&O/C&O, EL, and NYC. Thinking that no. 56 might not have made any connections with eastbounds at the Twin cities, this train had a more reliable schedule. No. 56 did have a rider coach listed and did have published station stops and times.
It was the end of an academic quarter in college when Green Bay Packers football coach Vince Lombardi died. The Sunday Chicago Tribune ran a special section about his life and career; and thinking about one of my college classmates who is a rabid "Cheesehead" and who was also home in Milwaukee, Wisc. that day, I packed the stories into a large manila envelope and mailed them on. After seeing a movie in The Loop, I walked over to Chicago Union Station, snuck onto one of the east side mail-loading platforms, and walked right into the open door of no. 57's working R.P.O. car. Even though I saw that the mail sorting clerks were packing pistols, the sight of those firearms didn't bother me at all. When I explained what I was doing there in that car, the boys were only too happy to see to it that the envelope would be properly postmarked and set out at Milwaukee Union Station. Upon seeing my friend a couple of weeks later, he did say that the envelope and its contents arrived the very next morning in fine shape! As I recall, I spent less than a quarter for postage!
AN insight into the relative cost of bulk RR and marine shipping can deduced from the PRR Sandusky branch (one of the last big-time steam operations). During the lake boat navigation season PRR would recieve solid trains of coal from N&W and L&N (via Louisville) for transshipment at Sandusky, via lake boat, to Gary and S. Chicago. Talk about circuity! I don,t know about the economics but it might have something to do w/ the boats returning w/ some kind of load versus mty.
Some of the merch. trains survived well beyond LCL. The SP "Overnights" CME and CMW (Zippers to employees) reverted to TOFC and were still operated (as 1st class trains) when I left SP in 1975 and might still be going.
I can't speak for other RRs, but the NYC ran the RPO in the final section of the Century. Pre-WWII photos show the Hudsons W/O green flags when the first car of the train is the RPO and no RPO when the flags are displayed
An interesting note on mail contracts is that the fastest road between 2 points got the contract for that route. Hence, the photos of Milw trains between Chicogo and St Paul frequently show a GN head end car while pix of GN's Fast Mail always show some Milw cars between St Paul and the Coast.
Finally, Bob Fryml could have save the worry about those postal clerks w/ guns by just using the mail slot next to the door which was a feature of all RPOs
One train I would like to be able to go back and see was the "White Mail" which IIRC on the Burlington from Chicago to St.Paul, then west on the GN. It's cars were all cream colored with green letterboards. Must have been quite a sight behind a 4-6-0 at speed coming up the Mississippi.
BTW my Dad's first job for the Post Office (1943) was picking up mail at the GN and MILW depots in Minneapolis. He got to be friends with one of the older RPO clerks who as noted was required to carry a sidearm (as was my Dad). Like most veteran RPO clerks, this guy had "the shakes" pretty bad from all the years rattling along on trains. Dad always told his friend that if something ever happened he should let my Dad (who was an expert shot) do the shooting...God knows where the bullets would have gone if the RPO clerk had pulled out his pistol and started shaking it around!!
JanOlov wrote:Why all this hassle, why didn't they keep it on the railroad?
Did that ever really happen? Does it still?
wjstix wrote: A quick follow-up...one thing to keep in mind is that United States Steel owns / owned a lot of everything regarding steel and iron ore. I'd guess maybe half the iron mining companies in Minnesota's Mesabi Range were owned by US Steel. Their ore was hauled by the Duluth Missabe and Iron Range Ry. - also owned US Steel. (non US Steel companies used Great Northern.) The ore would be loaded into ore boats owned by US Steel. The ore would be unloaded at docks they owned in the lower great lakes, and would be shipped to their steel mills by other railroads they owned, like the Bessemer & Lake Erie in Ohio or the Elgin, Joliet & Eastern in Chicagoland.Ford had something similar, they owned ore mines in Minnesota and quite a few in Upper Michigan, they shipped ore in their own boats to Detroit, made their own steel there and used the steel to make cars.
Henry Ford built the DT&I to tap southern Ohio coal...for his Rouge Plant...the DT&I ran just that...Detroit and Toledo to Ironton Ohio at the very bottom of the state....it also became a "belt line" for Ford to a degree.....side note...Thoms. Edison convinced Ford to string wire....80 Years later some of the cement overhead supports still stand.....next tme im in Detroit ill get some pictures of that......lil sidenote...the Rouge Plant was not only the largest manufacturing site on Earth for a long time but it was also the first plant to have all aspects of automobile mass production in one place.....raw materials came in and complete model T's came out.....my point being that during them times the more of the whole process you could control the better the profits....USS and Ford etc...any monoploy realy....the PFE and other fruit and veggie concerns aligned themselves with RR's to have the longhaul fresh produce market.....one of the first things to go to trucks ..................but wasnt that why the UP needed BIG power? to haul fast blocks of PFE refers
JanOlov wrote:Great stuff fellas! Tell me, how was those trains powered, did they get the best engines besides those on the top of the line trains? Also, did any ore travel westwards to the west coast, or did all ore go east to be made to steel and then travel west?
Generally mail trains were hauled by passenger engines, GN used the same 4-8-2's on the silk trains (like the famous "Marathon") as they did on the Empire Builder. Mail trains would usually get passenger engines that maybe had been pulling the road's top passenger train a few years before...so say a 4-6-2 that was bought to run on the top train in the teens might by the thirties be pulling mail and fast freights after being replaced on the top run by Mountains or Northerns...and those engines would be hauling mail and express in the forties and fifties when they were replaced by diesels.
As far as the ore, except for a few steel plants (like US Steel's plant in Duluth MN) basically all steel production was done in Chicago or cities east of Chicago, so there really wasn't a market to send ore west from MN, WI or MI. I believe Union Pacific did serve some western ore mines, but not sure where that ore went??
JanOlov wrote:Great stuff fellas! Which were the big ore railroads besides the DM&IR?
In Minnesota: Besides the Missabe, Great Northern served the Mesabi Range. BN/BNSF continues to do so. The Soo Line and Northern Pacific operated a joint operation serving the Cuyuna Range in Central MN up til about 1980. Erie Mining Co. (later LTV steel) and Reserve Mining (later Norshore Mining) operated taconite plants and ore docks of their own.
In Upper Michigan: Soo Line, C&NW/Milwaukee joint operation, Lake Superior & Ishpeming.
In Wisconsin: Soo Line, Duluth South Shore and Atlantic...CNW might have served some mines in WI but not sure.
In Ontario: CN ran ore trains to docks at Port Arthur (now Thunder Bay). Algoma Central served Ore mines on the other side of Lake Superior, bringing the ore to Sault Ste. Marie.
If you get serious about iron ore railroads, you'll probably want to get the two Iron Ore books recently put out, one covers MN and the other WI-MI.
Of all these, DMIR and GN/BN were the biggest operations. The largest ore dock was built by DMIR in Duluth, but the largest collections of ore docks is the GN/NP/BN facility across the harbor in Superior/Allouez WI.
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