The thread title is a copy of a headline from the Long Beach Post of Tuesday August 30,2011 and is accompanied by a story written by by Greggory Moore..
Article linked:http://www.lbpost.com/life/greggory/12188
I find the story troubling on several levels, but I also realize it has a somewhat incendiary nature with some of the Posters here, but this type of incident seems to be part of our lives in this day and time. AMTRAK's photographic policies have been well discussed around here on a number of occasions.
The fact that it seems to become a part of an OFFICIAL Police policy , seems to take the whole photographic policy to a level of individual interpretation which can lead to any number of individual interactions. It apparently does not mention fans taking pictures of Trains, but you have to wonder how far behind can those interpretations be when the policy seems to be very broad in its writing?
FTA: "...9:45am | Police Chief Jim McDonnell has confirmed that detaining photographers for taking pictures "with no apparent esthetic value" is within Long Beach Police Department policy.
McDonnell spoke for a follow-up story on a June 30 incident in which Sander Roscoe Wolff, a Long Beach resident and regular contributor to Long Beach Post, was detained by Officer Asif Kahn for taking pictures ofa North Long Beach refinery.1
"If an officer sees someone taking pictures of something like a refinery," says McDonnell, "it is incumbent upon the officer to make contact with the individual." McDonnell went on to say that whether said contact becomes detainment depends on the circumstances the officer encounters..."
FURTHER FTA:"...This policy apparently falls under the rubric of compiling Suspicious Activity Reports (SAR) as outlined in the Los Angeles Police Department's Special Order No. 11, a March 2008 statement of the LAPD's "policy … to make every effort to accurately and appropriately gather, record and analyze information, of a criminal or non-criminal nature, that could indicate activity or intentions related to either foreign or domestic terrorism."
There is additional information in the linked article. Which those interested can read and post their own conclusions. I think the discussion of the story and its potential implications to photographers who read and post here will be of interest.
In the minds of cops, I suspect that subjects with no aesthetic value will include railroads as well as refineries. Actually I am kind of a refinery fan myself. There are not too many of us.
When I was very young, my dad was a freelance industrial photographer, and he took me along sometimes. We went into some pretty heavy-duty industrial plants. We once got a really close-up tour of a refinery, and it was mighty impressive. We went through some boiler houses that I will never forget.
I have thought about contacting them to see if they might have an historical archive that might have photos of some of those dim memories. But I just don’t dare to ask them that question. I would probably hang up the phone and there would be a knock on the door.
Actually, I can see the aesthetics that the photographer in the article was going after in his refinery shot.
I guess they will have to do something about the Google Maps cars.
"No soup for you!" - Yev Kassem (from Seinfeld)
ericsp I guess they will have to do something about the Google Maps cars.
OT, but that is one brave person that dares to park his/her car in front of the bumping block like that....
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
samfp1943 FURTHER FTA:"...This policy apparently falls under the rubric of compiling Suspicious Activity Reports (SAR) as outlined in the Los Angeles Police Department's Special Order No. 11, a March 2008 statement of the LAPD's "policy … to make every effort to accurately and appropriately gather, record and analyze information, of a criminal or non-criminal nature, that could indicate activity or intentions related to either foreign or domestic terrorism."
I started 'serious' photography back in 1977. During my years of practice, I have taken photos of just about everything, from fire hydrants to cracks in the sidewalk to buildings to factories (and, of course, trains), all in the name of "art". These days, there are very few places where I feel comfortable taking photos, hence I do not go out to photograph very often anymore.
These types of policies sure seem rather misplaced, as just about everybody has a cell phone, and most of the phones have cameras in them. And unless a bad person is attempting to stage a bold double-bluff, someone who is standing out in the open during daylight, with his camera on a tripod is most likely NOT someone with misguided ambitions. More likely, a bad guy would use as discrete as possible methods of information gathering, such as the above-mentioned street maps online, or the nifty spy gear that is already available online: (http://www.pcworld.com/article/201703/12_top_spy_gadgets.html and http://007spygear.com/categories/Spy-Gadgets/) that can do a much better job of obtaining data than standing next to a factory or train track.
And now we citizens of the western world are doing to ourselves things beyond the best hope of any Big Brother--we are spying on each other: http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/onepercent/2011/08/facial-recognition-identifies.html and soon there will be an app for your phone (http://www.good.is/post/facial-recognition-app-enables-next-level-web-stalking/) that you can use to scan anybody's face and it will do a search and find out who the person is. Yikes!
Bin Laden and his ilk have indeed succeeded with their plan: they have nearly completely upset, destroyed, or drastically changed so many aspects of life in this once-great country. Consider the BS most people are willing to go through in order to feel secure, such as airport "security" and police road blocks; now you can add "Detain and investigate photographers" to the above. Do you ever wonder where it will end? If so, may I sugest reading George Orwell's 1984; the actual calendar years predicted are a bit off, but the gist of the story is all too real.
And yet, on the other hand, I do understand the need for security. There are many extreme philosophies that are intolerant of other ways of life, and the adherents to those philosophies are indeed a threat to what remains of our way of life. I most certainly do not want my "freedom to take photos unchallenged" to make it easier for some nutjob to cause suffering or death.
My issue is the huge holes in the security systems we now have. Sure, grandma has to take off her shoes to board the plane, but what about the baggage handlers? The mechanics? The fuelers? All of these positions afford almost unlimited access to airplanes. How many containers are offloaded into this country every day, and how many of them are scrutinized?
In some ways, we have too much security in the wrong places, while at the same time we have too little security where it is more likely to be needed. I want to BE secure, not just FEEL secure.
with no apparent esthetic value Wouldn't this phrase alone bring a lot of legal wrangling into the mess? Who is to decide what is of eshtetic value to the photographer?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
It amazes me. It brings up some important questions we should have about our police departments, the leaders, and the employees....and they should be, too, because they have an image problem which is handcuffing them from being taken seriously and being effective.
1) Are they really that stupid?
2) Are they really that paranoid?
3) Are they really that insecure in their jobs?
4) Are they really that insecure within themselves?
5) Are they really that insecure amongst their colleagues and superiors?
6) Are they toting ego's that need to be checked at the door?
7) Can they be trusted?
8). Is the donut eater as a stereotype for real?
Really, they have to start looking at themselves to see how they are being viewed and interpreted by the public if they want to be respected and taken seriously. I don't pose these questions in jest or to poke fun, but to point out how they are being percieved and to point out what they have to consider to be respected as police officers and not as living Keystone Cops!
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
Murphy Siding said on his post: "...with no apparent esthetic value Wouldn't this phrase alone bring a lot of legal wrangling into the mess? Who is to decide what is of eshtetic value to the photographer? "
"...with no apparent esthetic value Wouldn't this phrase alone bring a lot of legal wrangling into the mess? Who is to decide what is of eshtetic value to the photographer? "
Response to: Murphy Siding:
If you go to the linked PDF from the previous post
[quoted} "...This policy apparently falls under the rubric of compiling Suspicious Activity Reports (SAR) as outlined in the Los Angeles Police Department's Special Order No. 11, a March 2008 statement of the LAPD's "policy … "
Read some of the definitions under the SAR (Suspicious Activity Report).
They will indicate that it is the investigating /or arresting officer, who is going to make the determination of qualifying circumstances. The definitions seem to be written with a very broad and interpretative meanings.
As I indicated in my original posting that presents some imagined and scary scenarios for the individual who is confronted by a LEO who may be rational, or may be at the end of a shift and/or circumstances that have put the officer in a potentially confrontational mind set and/or an irrational frame of mind .
Potentially a group of problematic circumstances that might contribute to an outcome that the Supreme Court would have to split 5/4 on.
It is these kinds of policies that have changed the World we live in, since 9/11.
henry6 It amazes me. It brings up some important questions we should have about our police departments, the leaders, and the employees....and they should be, too, because they have an image problem which is handcuffing them from being taken seriously and being effective. 1) Are they really that stupid? 2) Are they really that paranoid? 3) Are they really that insecure in their jobs? 4) Are they really that insecure within themselves? 5) Are they really that insecure amongst their colleagues and superiors? 6) Are they toting ego's that need to be checked at the door? 7) Can they be trusted? 8). Is the donut eater as a stereotype for real? Really, they have to start looking at themselves to see how they are being viewed and interpreted by the public if they want to be respected and taken seriously. I don't pose these questions in jest or to poke fun, but to point out how they are being percieved and to point out what they have to consider to be respected as police officers and not as living Keystone Cops!
BTW, I answer these based on my own personal observations both in public, and observing a relative, who is an actual suburban Chicago cop.
Your answers, Z, are the perceptions I fear that exist agains police officers and departments, perceptions they have to start dealing with or there will be real trouble in River City.
Zardos,
Being friends with several deputies I can vouch they are not paranoid. Can't say the same for RR cops or local police officers. Most of the latter I've met are cordial, but I can't speak for all of them.
Norm
I have had personal and professional relationships with all levels of police for well over 50 years. There have been some I would trust and respect and others I fear in the way they wear their powers. Each one I would have to evaluate as an individual and each one would have a different outcome based on the questions I asked above, no two would answer the questions the same,nor would any ten of them. This problem with photography is scarey as it is something any of them could pull at any time with aplomb and no reason. And it is a worse problem if it is beyond the taking of pictures of trains. Top Cop, you've got a problem, a real problem...get the picture and get the corrections developed!
Have know may policemen over the years. Their competence has run the entire spectrum, as it would in any profession. However, the profession tends to draw the personality type that WANTS to exert power over other people....the home for the schoolyard bully in sanctioned adult life. Many outgrow being the bully, some do not and feel that they have any power if the are not capriciously imposing that power on someone. Some of the bully types even get promoted to the top jobs in their departments. Such is life.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I am a retired police officer and the current interactions between the police and the citizens they are SWORN TO PROTECT scares ME.
If you can't see where it is headed you are blind.
What can possibly be construed as suspicious about a person who is taking pictures of something that is in plain sight of everyone who is walking by?
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
henry6 I have had personal and professional relationships with all levels of police for well over 50 years. There have been some I would trust and respect and others I fear in the way they wear their powers. Each one I would have to evaluate as an individual and each one would have a different outcome based on the questions I asked above, no two would answer the questions the same,nor would any ten of them.
I have had personal and professional relationships with all levels of police for well over 50 years. There have been some I would trust and respect and others I fear in the way they wear their powers. Each one I would have to evaluate as an individual and each one would have a different outcome based on the questions I asked above, no two would answer the questions the same,nor would any ten of them.
But as the definition of paranoid is: Exhibiting or characterized by extreme and irrational fear or distrust of others, I would say that most of the cops do indeed fit the description.
Page 8 of the October issue of Trains talks about this issue. The question, "what law am I breaking?" would, on the surface, make an officer stop and think instead of just reacting. The good ones will realize where they were heading, the bad ones, not so much.
I'm sorry sir, but I don't see any apparent esthetic value in these photos. They're a little out of focus, and the lighting is from the wrong angle. I'm afraid I'll have to ask you to come with me to the station.
Murphy Siding I'm sorry sir, but I don't see any apparent esthetic value in these photos. They're a little out of focus, and the lighting is from the wrong angle. I'm afraid I'll have to ask you to come with me to the station.
"But sir... I teach photography and I was making some bad examples."
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
If "Chiefy" is a political appointee, as most of them are, then the local citizens should start raising cain with the mayor and the town council. They're the ones he works for, they should have the common sense to keep him in line. Interestingly, as sheriffs are elected officials, you don't often hear of any abusing their authority. If they louse up, the voters turn them out pretty quickly.
Semper Vaporo "But sir... I teach photography and I was making some bad examples."
detaining photographers for taking pictures "with no apparent esthetic value" is within Long Beach Police Department policy.
So if I take a picture of my wife I can be detained?
LOL
Thx IGN
I was trackside recently in my hometown, sitting on the trunk of my car, on a public street in view of the tracks, video camera at my side. A local police officer arrived, followed shortly by a back-up officer. First i must mention the officers were very nice, they gave me the standard what are you doing? why? can i see some i.d. etc. I explained I was filming freight trains to share with friends. As i was fumbling thru my wallet, the second officer did a walk around inspection in my car windows. Before i could hand over my license, he says, "Theres a copy of TRAINS magazine on the dash". With that I got, "Have a good day John, stay safe". I just want to thank TRAINS for being my "on the spot lawyer".
Now we need a sexy model in a spandex and lace bodysuit in every shot!
Andrew
Watch my videos on-line at https://www.youtube.com/user/AndrewNeilFalconer
sd45-2 I was trackside recently in my hometown, sitting on the trunk of my car, on a public street in view of the tracks, video camera at my side. A local police officer arrived, followed shortly by a back-up officer. First i must mention the officers were very nice, they gave me the standard what are you doing? why? can i see some i.d. etc. I explained I was filming freight trains to share with friends. As i was fumbling thru my wallet, the second officer did a walk around inspection in my car windows. Before i could hand over my license, he says, "Theres a copy of TRAINS magazine on the dash". With that I got, "Have a good day John, stay safe". I just want to thank TRAINS for being my "on the spot lawyer".
Your experience is exactly the way an interaction with law enforcement should be. They wondered what you were doing there and why, checked you out and went on their way. No one (police nor citizen) had an attitude and everybody continued on with their day. Some cops (I was a sheriff's deputy for 14 years) do have a bad attitude. However, a lot of the people police interact with also have a bad attitude. If you are railfanning and are approached by the police, be polite and answer their questions and things SHOULD work out fine.
As for being detained just for taking pictures, I would think that most judges would take a dim view of that. If you are on public property I don't think a judge would convict you for taking pictures. If you are on a station platform then that is a different story. While a station platform is open to the public, it is not public property. It is owned by the railroad or whatever agency is in control of it and they can stipulate what is allowed on that property.
Andrew Falconer Now we need a sexy model in a spandex and lace bodysuit in every shot! Andrew
I'll forward you my card.
zugmann Andrew Falconer: Now we need a sexy model in a spandex and lace bodysuit in every shot! Andrew I'll forward you my card.
Andrew Falconer: Now we need a sexy model in a spandex and lace bodysuit in every shot! Andrew
There is never a forum policeman around when you need one!
Bruce
So shovel the coal, let this rattler roll.
"A Train is a Place Going Somewhere" CP Rail Public Timetable
"O. S. Irricana"
. . . __ . ______
The Don Phillips article in the October issue of TRAINS on page 11; is an excellent read. It is point and counterpoint to this Thread.
Railfans when questioned and maybe 'threatened' need to ask [politely],
" Officer, What law am I breaking?'
[ Remembering that the SCOTUS has said that photography of many things, when done from a public area is NOT illegal.]
A small personal recording device might be a good thing to be able to prove that the railfan when confronted was NOT confrontational. But it would not be a good thing to wave it in the officer's face and make a major issue of turning it on. That could have ramifications!
There are many LEO types who are doing great jobs under difficult circumstances, but there are also some out there who have inflated opinions of their powers and authorities; individual officers who are all to ready to practice escalation on the most minimal situation.
Joining efforts like BNSF's and AMTRAK's fan registration programs are probably a good thing for the individuals into doing lots of filming and railfaning. The best tact seems to be able to proactively judge your circumstances and make sound judgement calls in each situation.
samfp1943 A small personal recording device might be a good thing to be able to prove that the railfan when confronted was NOT confrontational. But it would not be a good thing to wave it in the officer's face and make a major issue of turning it on. That could have ramifications!
But depending on a state's wiretapping laws, could not telling the officer have ramifications as well?
Corollary - Are cops with dashboard cams notifying parties they come in contact with that they are being recorded?
zugmann samfp1943: A small personal recording device might be a good thing to be able to prove that the railfan when confronted was NOT confrontational. But it would not be a good thing to wave it in the officer's face and make a major issue of turning it on. That could have ramifications! But depending on a state's wiretapping laws, could not telling the officer have ramifications as well?
samfp1943: A small personal recording device might be a good thing to be able to prove that the railfan when confronted was NOT confrontational. But it would not be a good thing to wave it in the officer's face and make a major issue of turning it on. That could have ramifications!
Again we have one side of a news paper story.
Did the photographer cause a fuss or was it a mutual confrontational? We will never know since news agencies tend to be blind sided in dealing with police matters..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
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