D.CarletonThe Midwest Venture fleet is owned by Illinois, Michigan, Wisconsin and Missouri so Amtrak is contractually obligated to keep that equipment in those states. Minnesota will have to wait until the Airo sets arrive to get the new stuff.
That maybe true but also Amtrak has a policy that all new state supported trains will run with Horizon equipment potentially with an Amfleet car for cafe / business class if a Horizon car is not setup that way. Their plan is to use Horizon cars until 2026 at which point they think they should have enough other equipment available.
GrampWhat type of equipment will it have?
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There's dozens that could support additional service-- they just don't have a cooperating RR to work with as CPKC has been in this cae.
Today's News Wire indicates that the "Borealis" got off with a bang. CPKC has been a co-operative host through the whole process and it appears that the demand is there. Any suggestions on other routes that could support additional service?
charlie hebdoNorth of Kenosha the line is not in repair suitable for 79mph.
I know this and WisDOT knows. This is only a study given via Inflation Reduction Act money. Earlier they projected several hundred million to get the line and signaling upgraded and to buy equipment. The City of Milwaukee owns the small plot of land where the former C&NW passenger line used to connect to the Milwaukee Road Chicago to Milwaukee Corridor just South of the Amtrak Depot in Milwaukee............which was formerly the joint Milwaukee Road / C&NW depot Milwaukee Depot from 1965 to Amtrak Formation.
So they are at a minimum preserving the options to bring this service back.
CMStPnPDoesn't seem like they want to go to Chicago and prefer the cross-platform transfer in Kenosha.
Kenosha is on the Metra UP North line, formerly C&NW. North of Kenosha the line is not in repair suitable for 79mph.
charlie hebdoMetra has always operated to Kenosha.
Doesn't seem like they want to go to Chicago and prefer the cross-platform transfer in Kenosha. They floated the idea of Amtrak as a contract of the trains North of Kenosha in the link below. I would think using Amtrak as a contractor negates the state border issue:
https://www.milwaukeemag.com/krm-commuter-rail-study-mitchell-international-airport/
CMStPnPI also think they will lift the cross border restriction METRA has currently for operations in Wisconsin North of the Border.
Metra has always operated to Kenosha.
charlie hebdo Preview of actual service. https://www.facebook.com/share/v/nh7rNBXYrW7iamzi/?mibextid=oFDknk
Preview of actual service.
https://www.facebook.com/share/v/nh7rNBXYrW7iamzi/?mibextid=oFDknk
I posted a link to Amtraks FY24 to whenever service plan. States in there that all new state supported or for that matter all new trains will start with Horizon coaches due to equipment shorthandedness. I believe they plan to switch it over to new equipment in 2026 or 2027, does not state that last part explicitly in the plan though.
CMStPnP I also think they will lift the cross border restriction METRA has currently for operations in Wisconsin North of the Border. Getting closer to that as population and sprawl both increase. METRA inclination is it wants the restriction lifted.......my interpretation as they seem to keep falling over themselves to get involved with any rail passenger project North of the border which has any potential to include more trains into Chicago. Once that restriction is lifted I think the track speed / service level issue fades between Amtrak and METRA between Chicago and Milwaukee at least.
I also think they will lift the cross border restriction METRA has currently for operations in Wisconsin North of the Border. Getting closer to that as population and sprawl both increase. METRA inclination is it wants the restriction lifted.......my interpretation as they seem to keep falling over themselves to get involved with any rail passenger project North of the border which has any potential to include more trains into Chicago. Once that restriction is lifted I think the track speed / service level issue fades between Amtrak and METRA between Chicago and Milwaukee at least.
OvermodThose on a tight schedule coming north will probably understand how far they are from the station, and quick passage followed by reasonable brisk braking down to close to the platform would translate into better perceived service.
They can't raise the speed into Milwaukee that much as they have a S curve before the station which restricts it and a very tight curve at the last point into the station which also restricts to about 10-15 mph. I think where I was going with this is they intend to extend CTC through the station which should increase a tiny bit of the restricted speed into the station. Primarily the large gap in CTC is with the Empire Builder and Twin Cities leaving the Milwaukee Station for the Twin Cities. That has always been a METRA like crawl until cutoff tower where Muskego Yard leads join the mainline. The biggest improvement will be moving the Freight trains off the main and routing through Muskego Yard. There was some interference there getting into and out of Milwaukee some times.
Without a doubt though the very worst issue right now with Chicago to Milwaukee fluidity are METRA operations South of the Wisconsin border. They want to fix in part but some of the projects are stalled on the Illinois side for various reasons.
Personally, I don't think they will ever get serious attention due to METRA's various political and financial issues and it would be far more expedient to put down a third track where they would dedicate to Amtrak and express. Long-Term, METRA prefers triple track for more efficient station skip express service so possibly joint interest there. However, priorities on the METRA side I don't think is at the point yet. So will probably wait for more Chicago to Milwaukee frequencies or someone or some agency to champion it.
Do not get me wrong. Those last mile creepings into some stations is madening. Absolutely agree that getting into stations quickly means getting rid of those slow approches and leaving quickly is also important.
blue streak 1Just get rid of the slow sections to reduce schedule times,
Those on a tight schedule coming north will probably understand how far they are from the station, and quick passage followed by reasonable brisk braking down to close to the platform would translate into better perceived service. Yes, it's more important to get all the 'fast' segments contiguous so high road speed can be maintained. But 90 is not that far different from 110 unless you're experienced. Delays and poking close to the end, however -- that your clientele would notice. (Or would notice the absence of sloth...)
Likewise, if there is reasonable maintenance of slow speed without checks or halts all the way through the Chicago 'short final' it would count for more than even short hitches and velocity changes. For those with watches, the idea would be that arrival at the actual platform would be 'on the advertised' (even if that advertising is an in-car display showing xxx minutes late) without further surprise or uncertainty.
CMStPnP WisDOT plans to spend a bunch to speed up last mile in Milwaukee.
WisDOT plans to spend a bunch to speed up last mile in Milwaukee.
OvermodYou're not going to meaningfully speed up those last miles to and from the terminal no matter how fancy you try to make your trains or locomotives.
Not sure I agree 100%. METRA is making improvements in the South and shifting some trains between stations I noticed already. Double track the CSS line which is of course not Metra but Amtrak apparently sees it might get improvement in switching to CSS.
The long term plan which is wishful thinking at this point is to get CPKC to switch freight trains over to C&NW from Milwaukee all the way to Bensenville. I suspect they have a decent plan to get around the METRA trains though they have not formally rolled it out yet. I agree we will not see speeds above 110 mph South of the border but I think they can do a lot better with the delays and congestion which is there now.
The Chicago and Alton improvement was four-gate crossings with medians, for 110mph. There are a LOT of grade crossings on that line, which can't be closed and couldn't practically be grade-separated.
110 is the hard FRA maximum for 'gated' crossings. For speed between 110 and 125, you need 'impenetrable barriers', like hydraulically-raising bollards or those barriers you see in Washington and Georgetown where a 10' section of the approach pivots up 3 or 4 feet with a steel and concrete wall appearing in front of you. (Above 125mph no grade crossings of any kind, locked and alarmed or otherwise...)
The only thing likely to improve the 'last-mile' METRA situation is going to be precision scheduling and operation of the longer-distance trains, combined with equally 'scheduled' path and hold of the various METRA trains -- both in terms of running-schedule delays and actual short-term waits to minimize long-distance dwell. You're not going to meaningfully speed up those last miles to and from the terminal no matter how fancy you try to make your trains or locomotives.
'Sealed Corridor' traditionally involves quad or long gates, median separators, an 'early warning system' for crossing-equipment malfunction "as soon as it occurs", and in some cases video monitoring and enhanced ticketing for grade-crossing violations. In California the 'sealed corridor' also involves careful traffic fencing and full-width gates for pedestrian crossings, sometimes involving those nasty bicycle barriers.
North Carolina, probably along with others, also extends 'sealed' to private crossings -- they say this includes better signage, but to be fully sensible it would involve some kind of positive gate and lock arrangement (with the alternative being formal closure of some kind).
CMStPnPWisDOT is planning on the upgrade to 90 mph North of the Wisconsin Border and potentially to a "sealed corridor" which I think is some dual use term referring to RR Crossing (quad gate upgrades) rather than fencing it off or elevating it.
I think that is the method the Chicago to StL line was upgraded to 115, along with fencing.
CMStPnPI am pretty confident they will come up with a solution at some point to get the METRA trains out of the way from their current role of unnecessarily tieing up other traffic to do whatever it is they do during the long pauses.
Doubtful. You seem to denigrate the needs of ~20,000 daily commuters. I would hope a solution can be found that allows for both Amtrak and Metra to operate properly
charlie hebdo The majority of the mileage, CHI to MKE, is within Illinois, so obviously IDOT will have a lot to say about route improvements and frequency of service. Already Hiawatha service is 90 minutes (60 mph including 3-4 stops) one way, very competitive with driving and similar to timings back when the Milwaukee Road and C&NW raced. On a 90 mile route, improving top speed to 115 (as on the Chicago to StL speedway) doesn't cut much off the timing. Given the average number of daily riders on the Milw North Metra line (22,100) and altogether on the three Metra lines sharing trackage up to (and even beyond) Western Avenue (48,300) your complaints about Metra "lunch pailers" are not going to go very far.
The majority of the mileage, CHI to MKE, is within Illinois, so obviously IDOT will have a lot to say about route improvements and frequency of service. Already Hiawatha service is 90 minutes (60 mph including 3-4 stops) one way, very competitive with driving and similar to timings back when the Milwaukee Road and C&NW raced. On a 90 mile route, improving top speed to 115 (as on the Chicago to StL speedway) doesn't cut much off the timing. Given the average number of daily riders on the Milw North Metra line (22,100) and altogether on the three Metra lines sharing trackage up to (and even beyond) Western Avenue (48,300) your complaints about Metra "lunch pailers" are not going to go very far.
I believe the requests for improvement are backlogged on both sides though we still seem to be still trying to accomodate the NIMBY folks in Glenview with the requested CPKC improvements there. Still no plan they find acceptable and so no funding can be applied for the South of Wisconsin border projects until we reach that point.
Regardless, WisDOT is planning on the upgrade to 90 mph North of the Wisconsin Border and potentially to a "sealed corridor" which I think is some dual use term referring to RR Crossing (quad gate upgrades) rather than fencing it off or elevating it. Additionally WisDOT is paying for Siemens Venture cab cars, I believe through a Wisconsin only supplimental. So it does appear that WisDOT is not completely dependent on IL DOT.
I am pretty confident they will come up with a solution at some point to get the METRA trains out of the way from their current role of unnecessarily tieing up other traffic to do whatever it is they do during the long pauses. I read they want to double track part of the FOX LAKE line that switches onto the Chicago Milwaukee Corridor so they can hold METRA trains at the point of junction. I think they were going to put in a double crossover as well but not sure (they really need a flyover but that would be really expensive, my guess triple track in places might be cheaper than a flyover) So my take on that plan is they might finally come up with an Amtrak trully takes priority over METRA operating scheme at some point which is how the operating plan should be on that section of railroad.
Overmod I can almost assure you that nothing between Chicago and the Twin Cities would be 'true' HSR (i.e. over even a pathetic 125mph). I'd be surprised even if they were discussing extended contiguous 'Empire Corridor'-style 110mph... and that in the usual sections almost useless for accelerating operational average speed or reducing time by more than the odd couple of minutes here and there. We had an extensive discussion on whether Madison was better served via its own dedicated branch or as a stop on a Chicago-Twin Cities route. Someone with patience should find the thread and link it here. Personally I think the question is moot because the new train is an explicit counterpart to the Builder, wherever or however that train runs, providing Amtrak's beloved 'transportation' at twice the current frequency in different dayparts, never mind the perceived levels of service or daypart amenities...
I can almost assure you that nothing between Chicago and the Twin Cities would be 'true' HSR (i.e. over even a pathetic 125mph). I'd be surprised even if they were discussing extended contiguous 'Empire Corridor'-style 110mph... and that in the usual sections almost useless for accelerating operational average speed or reducing time by more than the odd couple of minutes here and there.
We had an extensive discussion on whether Madison was better served via its own dedicated branch or as a stop on a Chicago-Twin Cities route. Someone with patience should find the thread and link it here. Personally I think the question is moot because the new train is an explicit counterpart to the Builder, wherever or however that train runs, providing Amtrak's beloved 'transportation' at twice the current frequency in different dayparts, never mind the perceived levels of service or daypart amenities...
Completely agree and WisDOT has already come to the conclusion that high speed is not needed between Milwaukee and Chicago and the corridor can become self sustaining without it. My guess is the highest they will go is 90-100 mph in the near term and I have a strong hunch they are going to experiment with no or limited stop express trains in the near future once they increase the train frequencies more between Chicago and Milwaukee. Saw them experimenting with peak and non-peak pricing already. First goal of WisDOT seems to be to try and make the corridor cover it's costs and ridership goals first before really pushing for any great leaps in speed. Even then I don't ever see the current ground level alignment increasing much higher than 100 to 110 mph.
One obstacle they are currently working around seems to be the METRA part of the corridor and METRA's unwillingness to increase speed or maintenence levels on the track they own. Though that issue can be overcome I feel but only with a lot of money.
wjstixThe original proposal back in the Obama administration was to develop a high-speed Chicago-Twin Cities train; when that fell through (largely because of Wisconsin) the 'plan B' was adding a second regular Amtrak train. From that point to now wasn't all that long. Based on the newsletters I have, the change was in February 2019; the MN legislature approved funding in 2021.
Just noticed this and I think it is slighly off....
You sure it wasn't Milwaukee to Madison proposed? Because I am really sure that Minnesota wasn't even part of that whole debate and Illinois didn't have much input on it either. BTW, when I was in college, Milwaukee to Chicago cost estimates were $4-5 Billion for true HSR. So I am not sure $800 million would have covered much beyond groundbreaking costs for Chicago to Twin Cities and the entire project for that route would have bankrupted probably all three states together if they attempted it without massive up front support from the Feds.
Afternoon from CHI would enable all inbound trains to CHI to make connections. Afternoon from MSP no connections. Am afraid that would not be a very high riders desire??
BaltACDWill we get to the point of a 'Morning Borealis' and a 'Afternoon Borealis'?
Possibly, Amtrak has one more in the agreement with CPKC. My guess is if the ridership is strong enough WisDOT & MnDOT would go for it. Not sure about where Illinois stands on it.
Probably not since the "Empire Builder" covers the other half of the morning-afternoon schedules. MILW had a similar situation when the "Olympian Hiawatha" was combined with the appropriate "Twin Cities Hiawathas".
wjstixPer Amtrak, it will have Cafe service with Coach class and Business class seating. https://www.amtrak.com/Borealis The original proposal back in the Obama administration was to develop a high-speed Chicago-Twin Cities train; when that fell through (largely because of Wisconsin) the 'plan B' was adding a second regular Amtrak train. From that point to now wasn't all that long. Based on the newsletters I have, the change was in February 2019; the MN legislature approved funding in 2021.
https://www.amtrak.com/Borealis
The original proposal back in the Obama administration was to develop a high-speed Chicago-Twin Cities train; when that fell through (largely because of Wisconsin) the 'plan B' was adding a second regular Amtrak train. From that point to now wasn't all that long. Based on the newsletters I have, the change was in February 2019; the MN legislature approved funding in 2021.
Will we get to the point of a 'Morning Borealis' and a 'Afternoon Borealis'?
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Per Amtrak, it will have Cafe service with Coach class and Business class seating.
GrampWhat type of equipment will it have? Would be nice if it runs on time and is kept clean.
So I am going to take a wild guess here because someone was complaining earlier on YouTube about a AmCafe car in the Hiawatha Pool that was half Business class. So my expectation is they will use an Amcafe car plus the regular cars in the Hiawatha Pool which are a mixture of Venture Cars and Horizon Cars last I checked. I have not seen a Venture Cafe Car.........heard they were on order along with Cab cars but have not seen any yet. So it would be a big surprise if it was an all Venture Car trainset with a new Loco.
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