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Amtrak budget and National Security

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Posted by BaltACD on Friday, September 15, 2023 8:52 PM

Overmod
 
BaltACD
Brightline will be starting scheduled service between Orlando and Miami.  170 mile in 3 hours including stops along the way.  Less than 60 MPH between the points is not high speed rail by any stretch of anybody's imagination. 

Factor in deceleration, acceleration, and station dwell and the numbers don't look as bad.  Much of the current FEC joint trackage still has speed restrictions, a couple of which are severe: look at the timings on the new section between Orlando and the first scheduled stop after the train turns south for a better idea of sustainable operating speed.

Excuses, excuses, excuses. IF you are advertising that you are starting HIGH SPEED RAIL and your end to end times don't even exceed the highway allowed speed limit, you have a lot of work to do.

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Posted by CMStPnP on Friday, September 15, 2023 8:52 PM

BaltACD
Brightline will be starting scheduled service between Orlando and Miami.  170 mile in 3 hours including stops along the way. Less than 60 MPH between the points is not high speed rail by any stretch of anybodies imagination.

So thats their initial schedule and plan for startup.   When you built or purchased your first house was it high speed?     So that is how I look at the project.   It is still a work in progress.

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Posted by Overmod on Friday, September 15, 2023 7:54 PM

BaltACD
Brightline will be starting scheduled service between Orlando and Miami.  170 mile in 3 hours including stops along the way.  Less than 60 MPH between the points is not high speed rail by any stretch of anybody's imagination.

Factor in deceleration, acceleration, and station dwell and the numbers don't look as bad.  Much of the current FEC joint trackage still has speed restrictions, a couple of which are severe: look at the timings on the new section between Orlando and the first scheduled stop after the train turns south for a better idea of sustainable operating speed.

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, September 15, 2023 8:03 AM

In an emergency, non-absolutely-essential regular service would be suspended to cover the emergency.

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Posted by BaltACD on Thursday, September 14, 2023 10:59 PM

Brightline will be starting scheduled service between Orlando and Miami.  170 mile in 3 hours including stops along the way.

Less than 60 MPH between the points is not high speed rail by any stretch of anybodies imagination.

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Posted by BaltACD on Thursday, July 20, 2023 4:18 PM

Amtrak doesn't have enough equipment to operate all their currently scheduled trains with those trains traditional amount of equipment on a daily basis.  The thought of throwing together additional equipment and crews as the answer to any form of emergency is totally ludicrous at this point in time.  Maybe at some point in time when Amtrak has a surplus of both equipment and crews they can be a emergency resource - that day is not today.

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, July 20, 2023 12:18 PM

n012944
daveklepper

I disagree:

In the event of a really serious National Emergency, example, a cyber-attack that shuts down all airport traffic control, all effective ground transportation will be of use, Brightline as well as Amtrak, and buses.

We would be better off spending money to keep such a thing from occurring, vs spending money in case it does.

Any serious "National Emergency" that transiently affects ATC would be solved or addressed long before Amtrak could get extra trains in position, let alone for the first of those trains to begin delivering air passengers to where they could be presumably bussed or Ubered to their actual destinations.

Something more protracted, perhaps a TOT EMP strike over the continental United States, may have affected effective rail operations just as it would flight operations.  We saw at Cayce just how well Amtrak could figure out running under much less uncertain 'emergency' signal-outage conditions.  It has been established here time and time again that nothing Amtrak or a combination of regional operators could do will substitute for dispatch of aircraft to cover multiple sequential daily routes... even on the proposed expansion of the LD network it would only serve a tiny subset of destination pairs on ridiculous-even-in-emergencies time.  And that before any freight-railroad delays or increased freight priorities impaired Amtrak's ability to operate equipment.

One place that railroads were supposed to make a positive difference was in rapid response to weather-required evacuation.  As I recall, part of the response to Rita, so soon after Katrina, was to use various trainsets including Amtrak equipment as a shuttle "out of harm's way".  The logistics didn't work particularly well, then, with both high political motivation and several days' lead time -- I can't really imagine the situation is improved now, or that it is particularly amenable to improvement without enormous capital and staff outlays for events that may never occur, and for which any response would be nearly laughable in magnitude of importance.

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Posted by n012944 on Thursday, July 20, 2023 11:20 AM

daveklepper

I disagree:

In the event of a really serious National Emergency, example, a cyber-attack that shuts down all airport traffic control, all effective ground transportation will be of use, Brightline as well as Amtrak, and buses.

 

 

We would be better off spending money to keep such a thing from occurring, vs spending money in case it does.

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Posted by rdamon on Tuesday, July 18, 2023 5:36 PM

blue streak 1

 

 
Backshop

 The situation of a sunspot CME is a whole another possibility not likely but a slight possibility,

What do GPS satellites have to do with credit card transactions?

 

 

Gas pumps for one are linked to GPS time signals.  Credit csrds can only be approved with the proper time signal.  Some other CC card terminals as well but not sure where it works.

 

4G and 5G phones need strict timing.  GPS antennas for clocks can be found and almost every cell tower.

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Tuesday, July 18, 2023 4:37 PM

Backshop

 The situation of a sunspot CME is a whole another possibility not likely but a slight possibility,

What do GPS satellites have to do with credit card transactions?

Gas pumps for one are linked to GPS time signals.  Credit csrds can only be approved with the proper time signal.  Some other CC card terminals as well but not sure where it works.

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Posted by Backshop on Tuesday, July 18, 2023 3:24 PM

blue streak 1

It is more likely that a rouge country will disable the GPS satelites or at least reception.  Every thing will shut down especially credit card transactions at  gasoline pumps.  So, do not know what most RRs are doing but our local CPs have both Verizon satellite dishes and land lines connected.

The situation of a sunspot CME is a whole another possibility not likely but a slight possibility,

 

What do GPS satellites have to do with credit card transactions?

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Posted by BaltACD on Tuesday, July 18, 2023 3:07 PM

blue streak 1
It is more likely that a rouge country will disable the GPS satelites or at least reception.  Every thing will shut down especially credit card transactions at  gasoline pumps.  So, do not know what most RRs are doing but our local CPs have both Verizon satellite dishes and land lines connected.

The situation of a sunspot CME is a whole another possibility not likely but a slight possibility,

CSX had a similar 'attack' about 20 years ago.  A 'bug' virus or influenza got into the main headquarters Main Frame computer.  The 'bug' attacked the various communications links that the Main Frame had with other computer systems with which the Main Frame shared data that benefitted both systems.

The CSX Computer Aided Dispatching System was one such computer.  CADS got data such as crew names and train loading specifics from systems that operated on the Main Frame.  In turn the CADS computer sent tracking data to the Main Frame where it could be accessed by users that had terminals connected to the Main Frame.  CADS also used the communications network that the Main Frame supported to all the terminals and printers attached to it to send Train Messages and other forms of CADS data to locations in the field.  The Main Frame also supported the 'CSX Technofax' system to be used when the system printer network was down for routine weekly maintenance.

The attack on the computer to computer communications links 'busyed' them to the point that the CADS computer would crash.  Rebooting the CADS computer would allow it to operate 'normally' for 15 to 20 minutes when its comm links would get overloaded and it would crash again.  With the frequent crashing it got to the point that Train Dispatcher COULD NOT keep track of the trains on their territories and the entiere railroad ground to a halt.

The crashing started happening about 0300 or 0400 on a weekday morning.  Needless to say, the Experts, were notified and responded.  My understanding is that it took until about 1500 or 1600 for the Experts to understand WHAT was happending without a clue as to why it was happening.  At that point in time the CADS computer had its comm lines with the Main Frame diabled.

Once the comm lines were diabled it became a 'All Hands On Deck' deal will ALL Extra Board Dispatchers being called in to work to 'act' as the communications links.  Getting appropriate data off the Main Frame and manually imputting the data into the CADS system.  Train Messages were being printed out locally and then 'hand faxed' to destination, since the hand faxed messages DID NOT contain the notation 'Sent via CSX Technofax' at the bottom of the messages, by rule they had to be read back over the telephone to the Dispatcher to confirm accurate receipt.  This hodge poge of a operation continued for about 24 to 36 hours until the actual cause could be found and eliminated from the Main Frame system.

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Posted by rdamon on Tuesday, July 18, 2023 3:02 PM

FEMA trains full of Toliet Paper using Train Orders?

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Tuesday, July 18, 2023 1:42 PM

It is more likely that a rouge country will disable the GPS satelites or at least reception.  Every thing will shut down especially credit card transactions at  gasoline pumps.  So, do not know what most RRs are doing but our local CPs have both Verizon satellite dishes and land lines connected.

The situation of a sunspot CME is a whole another possibility not likely but a slight possibility,

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Posted by CMStPnP on Tuesday, July 18, 2023 12:43 PM

zugmann
If there was a massive hacker attack - where is everyone going to go? 

The last thing I would do is board an Amtrak train.   That would be analogous to getting on an Elevator when there is a fire. 

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Posted by zugmann on Tuesday, July 18, 2023 12:07 PM

If there was a massive hacker attack - where is everyone going to go? 

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any

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Posted by CMStPnP on Tuesday, July 18, 2023 11:57 AM

daveklepper
THere is no way you can hard wire a link control tower - airplane.

You can increase the security of those communications with the proper security measures to a large extent.   The issue is that private companies tend to take a min approach to security until there is a major breech then they throw more money at the issue.

You cannot employ a jammer that goes across all radio frequencies because then your shooting yourself in the foot.   Likewise some radio transmission encryption approaches are so complex that the chances of decryption are very remote.   Still, nothing is impossible I guess nor are any of these solutions cheap.   So I can see why a private company would not resort to them unless there was no other option.

As a rule, hackers go to the weakest link in the communications or data processing chain instead of attempting to take security software head on because they value stealth more than anything.

Maybe AI will put a lot of these technologies more in the financial reach of Class I railroads and it won't be an issue.   We'll see.

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Posted by rdamon on Tuesday, July 18, 2023 10:54 AM

We saw an example of this with 9/11.  There wasn't a rental car to be found for days. 

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Posted by BaltACD on Tuesday, July 18, 2023 9:21 AM

daveklepper
But most rairoads do have hard-wire bachup.  If they don't, they definitely bshould.  The radio links permit the hacking.

In going wireless - be it satellite or radio - THE WIRES ARE GONE.  If not taken down by the railroads, stolen by theives.

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, July 18, 2023 8:16 AM

THere is no way you can hard wire a link control tower - airplane.

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, July 18, 2023 8:15 AM

But most rairoads do have hard-wire bachup.  If they don't, they definitely bshould.  The radio links permit the hacking.

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Posted by BaltACD on Tuesday, July 18, 2023 8:02 AM

daveklepper
I disagree:

In the event of a really serious National Emergency, example, a cyber-attack that shuts down all airport traffic control, all effective ground transportation will be of use, Brightline as well as Amtrak, and buses.

I see you disagree and raise another disagreement.

Railroads have adopted new technologies and in many, many places have replaced their wire line based CTC signalling equipment with Satellite based signalling equipment.  Likely any Cyber attack capable off knocking air transportation out of the skies could also halt the railroads in grid lock.  The Class 1's non-signalled territory could also be affected through attacks that end up attacking the computers that support the carriers Computer Aided Dispatching Systems.

One step further along, in many if not most, metropolitan areas the controlling authorities have in place many highway signalling and signage that has been installed to permit managing the flow of highway traffic.

The 21st Century USA is dependent on computer and wireless control of so many aspects of our daily lives that a Cyber attack could cripple the country on many levels, nationwide.

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, July 18, 2023 4:24 AM

I disagree:

In the event of a really serious National Emergency, example, a cyber-attack that shuts down all airport traffic control, all effective ground transportation will be of use, Brightline as well as Amtrak, and buses.

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Posted by spsffan on Tuesday, July 18, 2023 1:00 AM

Yes, I think we need to understant that Briteline is a real estate company branching out into the railway feild. Reminds me of Pacific Electric. 

Now, I very much appreciate what they have done, and wish them all the success in the world, but we need to remember that Briteline gets to pick and choose what routes and services it provides, and is not expected or required to operate  unprofitable services. Amtrak is required to do both, plus maintain the NEC. 

Furthermore, and related to the thread, none of Briteline services or proposed services affect national security. The NEC, at least, does. 

 

David

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Monday, July 17, 2023 8:44 PM

Operating expenses (no overhead) compared to farebox revenues plus any allocated subsidies is how Iwould interpret it, but I'm not a CPA or CFA .

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Posted by Gramp on Monday, July 17, 2023 7:31 PM

Overmod

 

 
Gramp
Why is "below the above-the-rail" cost not included as a charge in assessments?  Only because the charge would throw all assessments into the red?  Those charges would include capitalized expenses, would they not?  Not gross investments.

 

Your train makes money because 'farebox recovery' exceeds operating expenses.  Maintenance counts.  What you paid to acquire rights to and build the track doesn't, and neither does the unamortized first cost of the equipment.  Very little depreciation would likely apply to Brightline even with creative accounting.

 

Perhaps PJS1 will look at this and opine in better detail what Fortress might mean by 'unexpectedly profitable'.

 

So they're only looking at marginal revenue and cost?

 

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, July 17, 2023 12:01 PM

Gramp
Why is "below the above-the-rail" cost not included as a charge in assessments?  Only because the charge would throw all assessments into the red?  Those charges would include capitalized expenses, would they not?  Not gross investments.

Your train makes money because 'farebox recovery' exceeds operating expenses.  Maintenance counts.  What you paid to acquire rights to and build the track doesn't, and neither does the unamortized first cost of the equipment.  Very little depreciation would likely apply to Brightline even with creative accounting.

Perhaps PJS1 will look at this and opine in better detail what Fortress might mean by 'unexpectedly profitable'.

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Posted by Steven Otte on Monday, July 17, 2023 11:22 AM

Keep politics out of this Forum, please. A post has been deleted.

--
Steven Otte, Model Railroader senior associate editor
sotte@kalmbach.com

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, July 17, 2023 3:16 AM

I think other readers are also interested in exactly what food and drink and their quality.  And ditto for your forthcoming trip.

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