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Canadian wildfire smoke. Ongoing missed traffic for Amtrak.

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Canadian wildfire smoke. Ongoing missed traffic for Amtrak.
Posted by blue streak 1 on Thursday, June 8, 2023 9:46 AM

The NE had cancellations of airplane flights yeserday due to the smoke. It may be some airpors will be below landing minimums for some aircraft or low time pilots. Also many locations auto traffic slowed as well.  This smoke problem will occurr at various locations through out the northern part of the US this summer.  Just depends on how the upper winds will move from week to week. If Amtrak had a surge fleet now it could serve many otherwise stranded residents. 

NY & New England now who next?

This is not going to be just a problem this year.  Unless a drastic change in the weather these smoke alerts will happen for next few  summers. 

Pls excuse post.  Have to run no time to edit. 

 

 

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Thursday, June 8, 2023 9:55 AM

It's also possible that many of these cancelled flights went to destinations that were never served by Amtrak so even if Amtrak could afford the luxury of a surge fleet it still couldn't serve those locales.

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Posted by Gramp on Thursday, June 8, 2023 5:53 PM

A mission group from our church were flying back from Puerto Rico through NYC.  Daytime flight from NYC postponed to nighttime to be able to fly.  Flew to Chicago, and were bussed back here rather than flying here as originally planned.  So busses picked up the slack. 

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Posted by CMStPnP on Friday, June 9, 2023 7:51 AM

I wonder if the haze or lack of visibility impacts railroad track speeds in places?  

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Posted by Backshop on Friday, June 9, 2023 3:20 PM

Two low-time pilots wouldn't be paired together, so not a problem.

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Posted by BaltACD on Friday, June 9, 2023 4:28 PM

CMStPnP
I wonder if the haze or lack of visibility impacts railroad track speeds in places?  

No more so than fog does.  While what was broadcast on TV is bad, it is no where near as bad as fog can be.  I have lived/worked in both Cincinnati and Pittsburgh in the early Fall of the year - the time when the various rivers retain the Summer time heat and the near freezing Fall nights create sever 'River Fog'; heat generated water vapor from the warm rivers entering the atmosphere in the river valleys - virtually PACKING the valleys full of fog in the early morning hours and until such time as the Sun is able to rise and burn the fog off.

The only place fog affects Main Line railroading is when trains for rules compliance reasons must operate at Restricted Speed - 1/2 the range of vision and not exceeding 20 MPH.  Fog shortens the range of vision.

Clear signal indications convey the authority to operate at maximum authorized speed to the next signal.  Approach signal indications convey authority to reduce speed and approach the next signal PREPARED TO STOP unless that signal can be observed as conveying an indication that is not STOP or Restricted Proceed.

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Posted by Gramp on Friday, June 9, 2023 7:55 PM

Thx, BaltACD. 

A friend from north Jersey today told me the air there has been color coded. The last three days, red. Today and tomorrow, orange. Sunday, yellow. When she left her office on Tuesday, she thought the building next door was on fire, was going to flag down a cop, then realized smoke was everywhere. Today wearing mask outside but not inside. Winds are carrying the smoke into Michigan now. She said Brace yourself for red day. 

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Saturday, June 10, 2023 2:31 AM

Backshop

Two low-time pilots wouldn't be paired together, so not a problem.

 

 
It is if Captain is low time high miniums until 100  hours.  Yes in that casee co-pilot needs higher time.  Some airline 500 hours.
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Posted by BaltACD on Monday, June 12, 2023 8:32 AM

Backshop
Two low-time pilots wouldn't be paired together, so not a problem.

My understanding is that Commercial Airline Pilots need a minimum of 1500 hours to be hired in the US.  Foreign carriers have a lower limits.

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Posted by NittanyLion on Monday, June 12, 2023 1:14 PM

CSSHEGEWISCH
It's also possible that many of these cancelled flights went to destinations that were never served by Amtrak so even if Amtrak could afford the luxury of a surge fleet it still couldn't serve those locales.

Virtually all of them would have.  I went to Flight Aware and pulled the next 20 departures and arrivals for LGA, as an example.

The next 20 departures:

GPD434 Westchester County (HPN)
JBU1942 Denver Intl (DEN)
JBU371 Fort Lauderdale Intl (FLL)
UAL704 Houston Bush Int'ctl (IAH)
EDV5226 Buffalo Niagara Intl (BUF)
SWA1844 William P Hobby (HOU)
EDV5295 Binghamton (BGM)
AAL1290 Reagan National (DCA)
RPA5721 Boston Logan Intl (BOS)
EDV5386 Birmingham-Shuttlesworth Intl (BHM)
SKW5617 Chicago O'Hare Intl (ORD)
JBU832 Boston Logan Intl (BOS)
RPA4698 Wilmington (NC) Intl (ILM) 
EDV4992 Montreal-Trudeau (YUL)
DAL478 Hartsfield-Jackson Intl (ATL)
EDV4914 Cleveland-Hopkins Intl (CLE)
RPA4775 St Louis Lambert Intl (STL)
JZA8991 Toronto Pearson Int'l (YYZ)
SWA1276 Chicago Midway Intl (MDW)
RPA5657 Nashville Intl (BNA)

I've struck through the airports that can't be readily reached by Amtrak on a time horizon that is not significantly worse than "flight time plus substantial delay." You've got Westchester (which is a 12 minute flight, there's no train that's time competitive there), DC, and Boston.  That's it.

The inbounds aren't any better:

RPA4614 Indianapolis Intl (IND)
EDV4932 Gerald R Ford Intl (GRR)
ASH6155 Houston Bush Int'ctl (IAH)
JBU2088 Nashville Intl (BNA)
EDV5470 Cleveland-Hopkins Intl (CLE)
RPA4260 Greenville/Spartanburg Intl (GSP)
RPA5712 Milwaukee Mitchell Intl Airport (MKE)
EDV5131 Myrtle Beach Intl (MYR)
RPA5806 John Glenn Columbus Intl Airport (CMH)
SWA10 Dallas Love Fld (DAL)
DAL550 Hartsfield-Jackson Intl (ATL)
COL854 Philadelphia Intl (PHL)
EDV4903 Birmingham-Shuttlesworth Intl (BHM)
DAL1262 Houston Bush Int'ctl (IAH)
CNS24 Boston Logan Intl (KBOS)
RPA4382 Toronto Pearson Int'l (YYZ)
ASH6236 Washington Dulles Intl (IAD)
DAL680 Dallas-Fort Worth Intl (DFW)
DAL2485 Miami Intl (MIA)
RPA4326 Norfolk Intl (ORF)

It also wasn't much more disruptive than a regular old thunderstorm moving through too. LGA only saw about 120 flights cancelled, compared to 2,000 delays.  The planes were still moving, only a couple hours behind.  And a lot of the delays were because they were holding arrivals in the air. They're currently (right now, on June 12th, at 14:00) holding arrivals at their departure airports for 65 minutes because of a thunderstorm moving in.  "Smoke" is an unusual cause, but the actual operational disruption is not.

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Posted by rdamon on Monday, June 12, 2023 2:36 PM

Someone would probably not hop on a train to Florida, but getting them to a hub city with better weather is an option.  

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Tuesday, June 13, 2023 3:30 AM

blue streak 1
Backshop

Two low-time pilots wouldn't be paired together, so not a problem.

 

 

 It is if Captain is low time high miniums until 100  hours.  Yes in that case co-pilot needs higher time.  Some airline 500 hours.
 

Clatification.  These times are as being Captain on that type aircraft.
CAT 2 and CAT 3 landing minimums are requiring more flight time for the Captain.
 
Back in my day had to have 500 hours as Captain in that type before allowed to make CAT 3 landings.  It may have changed for some airlines.
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Posted by NittanyLion on Tuesday, June 13, 2023 9:27 AM

rdamon

Someone would probably not hop on a train to Florida, but getting them to a hub city with better weather is an option.  

 

That doesn't work either. The closest hub cities to NYC are Boston (3hr 22m, not including travel time to the nearest Amtrak station and wait time for a train) and DC (2hr 55m). If you're delayed less than five hours, you're better off staying put and waiting it out. Really significant delays are tied to weather systems large enough to be impacting two or three of those hub cities at the same time too.

Hubs are spread out at ranges that are specifically tied to maximize the flight distances, which works against the idea of moving between hubs.  That's the basis of the hub and spoke model.  As an example:

You're at Newark and your United flight to Los Angeles is delayed six hours because of thunderstorms. LGA and JFK are seeing the same delays.  The system is moving southwest to northeast. The next closest United hub is Dulles, four hours and 43 minutes away (door to door), assuming you leave right now this second. Dulles is still seeing residual delays of 90 minutes from the same storm system moving off.  Even with the delays, you won't be able to make it to Dulles in time to make it for the last departure for the day, which means moving to Dulles is actually costs you ten hours. Or you could take the 23 hour Amtrak trip to Chicago, the next closest United hub, if you're insane.

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Posted by rdamon on Thursday, June 15, 2023 5:41 PM

NittanyLion

 

 
rdamon

Someone would probably not hop on a train to Florida, but getting them to a hub city with better weather is an option.  

 

 

 

That doesn't work either. The closest hub cities to NYC are Boston (3hr 22m, not including travel time to the nearest Amtrak station and wait time for a train) and DC (2hr 55m). If you're delayed less than five hours, you're better off staying put and waiting it out. Really significant delays are tied to weather systems large enough to be impacting two or three of those hub cities at the same time too.

Hubs are spread out at ranges that are specifically tied to maximize the flight distances, which works against the idea of moving between hubs.  That's the basis of the hub and spoke model.  As an example:

You're at Newark and your United flight to Los Angeles is delayed six hours because of thunderstorms. LGA and JFK are seeing the same delays.  The system is moving southwest to northeast. The next closest United hub is Dulles, four hours and 43 minutes away (door to door), assuming you leave right now this second. Dulles is still seeing residual delays of 90 minutes from the same storm system moving off.  Even with the delays, you won't be able to make it to Dulles in time to make it for the last departure for the day, which means moving to Dulles is actually costs you ten hours. Or you could take the 23 hour Amtrak trip to Chicago, the next closest United hub, if you're insane.

 

 

6 Hours, I agree This last winter I had flights cancelled and rebooked 2-3 days later.

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