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LAX to San Diego service interrupted again.

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LAX to San Diego service interrupted again.
Posted by blue streak 1 on Saturday, April 29, 2023 2:48 PM

This post involves both passeger and freight.

This slide approximately 2 miles north of the other slide but above the tracks.  This time above the tracks and still sliding toward tracks.  If this closes the tracks to freight as well that becomes serious.  The route is listed as a strategic route to San Diego naval base and Camp Pendlton.  What are the solutions?  The Japaneese would certainly like to have cut the route in WW-2.  Now the Chineese have the capability to blast the bluffs shutting down route for months.

Would suggest a 4 pronged attack to reduce vulnerability.

1.  Rebuild the SAN Diego & Arizona East RR to ElCentro.  ReBuild to plate "H" clearances .  Some engineering work already one so work could start almost immediately especially in Mexico.

2.  Re build the Perris Valley tracks on the previous Santa Fe track ROW from there to Fallbrook - Oceanside.

3. Start the tunnel work now.

4.  Do engineering utility location work to enable emegency track work on the street on the city streets bypassing the bluffs. 

Some of this work would require emergency federal legislation to bypass all present legal impediments.

Expanding landslide still threatens San Diego railroad connection - The San Diego Union-Tribune (sandiegouniontribune.com)

 

 

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Posted by MidlandMike on Saturday, April 29, 2023 7:45 PM

blue streak 1
2.  Re build the Perris Valley tracks on the previous Santa Fe track ROW from there to Fallbrook - Oceanside.

The line was abandoned early in its lifetime for worse damage problems.  The SD&AE also is earthquake prone, but as a fan, I'de like to see it rebuilt.

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Posted by Erik_Mag on Saturday, April 29, 2023 8:09 PM

blue streak 1

2.  Re build the Perris Valley tracks on the previous Santa Fe track ROW from there to Fallbrook - Oceanside.

The original Perris to Oceanside line would require taking out the Railraod Canyon dam and reservoir, moving at least one pylon of an SCE 500kV line and require moving some of the Orange Empire's (now SCRM) trackage. An alternative route might be a ROW paralleling I-215 between Perris and Temecula, or rebuild the Corona to Temecula line.

3. Start the tunnel work now.

If you are refering to the Del Mar bluffs bypass, that wouldn't be a bad idea, but keep in mind that housing prices in Del Mar are in the nosebleed levels when comes for acquisition of ROW. OTOH, it would make it a bit easier establishing a station for the Del Mar fairgrounds.

4.  Do engineering utility location work to enable emegency track work on the street on the city streets bypassing the bluffs. 

There really isn't much of the way of streets in San Clemente that would be suitable for conversion to street running without a lot of earthwork and taking out a lot of very expensive houses. Would be much cheaper to get the SD&AE route back in shape.

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Posted by CMStPnP on Sunday, April 30, 2023 11:47 AM

MidlandMike
The line was abandoned early in its lifetime for worse damage problems.  The SD&AE also is earthquake prone, but as a fan, I'de like to see it rebuilt.

Same here and you would think it also makes logical sense to build a line due East from San Diego over the mountains to connect in Arizona for shipments to KC, Chicago and Eastwards versus a 3 hour dogleg to Los Angeles.   Yet nobody wants to put the money down to do it.

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Posted by n012944 on Tuesday, May 2, 2023 4:04 PM

CMStPnP

 

 
MidlandMike
The line was abandoned early in its lifetime for worse damage problems.  The SD&AE also is earthquake prone, but as a fan, I'de like to see it rebuilt.

 

Same here and you would think it also makes logical sense to build a line due East from San Diego over the mountains to connect in Arizona for shipments to KC, Chicago and Eastwards versus a 3 hour dogleg to Los Angeles.   Yet nobody wants to put the money down to do it.

 

 

Logica sense to whom?  For sure not for anyone looking to make a profit.

An "expensive model collector"

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Tuesday, May 2, 2023 9:26 PM

Does this new slide mean the whole bluffs are becoming unstable?  Once again another alternate route needs to be completed.

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Posted by azrail on Wednesday, May 3, 2023 1:52 AM

If you have ever driven I-8 between El Centro and San Diego (with several summits that can and do get heavy snow) you know why the SD&AE was built down through Mexico. With all of the problems south of the Border do you think Amtrak would run a train on that line?

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Posted by azrail on Wednesday, May 3, 2023 1:54 AM

How did Santa Fe (and BNSF) keep it open for over 100 years, yet when turned over to a gov't agency they can't keep it open?

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Posted by BaltACD on Wednesday, May 3, 2023 8:06 AM

azrail
How did Santa Fe (and BNSF) keep it open for over 100 years, yet when turned over to a gov't agency they can't keep it open?

Manpower - in mass quantities, as compared to today's employment levels.

The days of the 10 man Section Gang headquartered every 8 to 10 miles along the right of way are long gone.  Those section gangs lived within walking distance of their reporting point and could show up for work in any kind of weather and took care of their territory in minute detail on a daily basis - tighten up joint bars, tamp up a minor low spot before it becomes a major mud pumping problem area.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

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Posted by CMStPnP on Wednesday, May 3, 2023 11:18 AM

blue streak 1
Does this new slide mean the whole bluffs are becoming unstable?  Once again another alternate route needs to be completed.

I thought they had a plan already for that for the San Diego Surf Line and it was just waiting on State or Federal Financing.    This is not a new problem.   I read somewhere the line relocation would get rid of the tunnel or tunnel(s) as you approach San Diego..........seem to remember there was at least one of them and at some point the line climbs the bluff and rides on top of the bluff just before San Diego somewhere.

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Posted by CMStPnP on Wednesday, May 3, 2023 11:22 AM

azrail
How did Santa Fe (and BNSF) keep it open for over 100 years, yet when turned over to a gov't agency they can't keep it open?

#1. Check the history of the local climate via the Internet.

#2.  Check what the sea level was back then.

A lot of people deny that our climate changes (not affiliated necessarily with the whole Global Warming debate).    But I did #1 for the Dallas area and noticed over the last 50 years or so it  we are definitely getting hotter temps in the Summer in Dallas at least.   I researched it because some bozo posted on another forum how todays adults in Dallas cannot handle the heat like he could when he was a kid.   Well.........because we have signifcantly higher temps now.

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Posted by OWTX on Wednesday, May 3, 2023 11:33 AM

Do either of those bases have an active railhead?

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Posted by York1 on Wednesday, May 3, 2023 11:47 AM

CMStPnP
But I did #1 for the Dallas area and noticed over the last 50 years or so it  we are definitely getting hotter temps in the Summer in Dallas at least.   I researched it because some bozo posted on another forum how todays adults in Dallas cannot handle the heat like he could when he was a kid.   Well.........because we have signifcantly higher temps now.

 

I also checked the average summer temperatures of Dallas from the 1940s to 2010s.

The temps are about 2°F higher.

How much of that increase can be linked to the massive increase in the square miles of city versus farmland over the past 30 years?

How much has the sea level risen in California over that time?

I'm willing to bet that BNSF had just as much trouble with landslides and unstable coastal lands as we do now.

York1 John       

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, May 3, 2023 12:23 PM

Your 'long-term solution' to the access issue looks like this:

https://hsr.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/docs/newsroom/maps/LA_to_San_Diego.pdf

Whether or not it's cost-effective to provide a freight main along part of this route remains to be seen -- it would have to be planned and built by a freight carrier or out of CARB's little escrow funds, and I don't really see that much value in it.

Certainly a freight railroad east out of the San Diego area following interstate 8 would involve some heroic base tunnels... through what I believe is a seismically active area.  That becomes more achievable if functional electrification is provided (as I expect California would demand by that point in the 22nd Century.)

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Posted by MidlandMike on Wednesday, May 3, 2023 9:35 PM

azrail

How did Santa Fe (and BNSF) keep it open for over 100 years, yet when turned over to a gov't agency they can't keep it open?

 

Back then there were actually some lonely sections along that coast.  Now it's totally developed (except at Camp Pendelton) with construction on the bluffs, roofs and parking lots shedding rain, lawn and garden watering, and all other things that destabilize the slopes, plus more shore erosion undercutting with the passage of time since AT&SF built the line.

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Wednesday, May 3, 2023 9:48 PM

Not a geologist.  Have to wonder if these slides happen by some earth slipping but not enough yet to cause an earthquake?

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Posted by Erik_Mag on Wednesday, May 3, 2023 11:37 PM

Overmod

Your 'long-term solution' to the access issue looks like this:

https://hsr.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/docs/newsroom/maps/LA_to_San_Diego.pdf

Whether or not it's cost-effective to provide a freight main along part of this route remains to be seen -- it would have to be planned and built by a freight carrier or out of CARB's little escrow funds, and I don't really see that much value in it.

The "Corona" option looks a bit better as it would be following the ROW for AT&SF's Corona to Temecula line. The route from Temecula to Miramar (where the split in the final leg starts) looks like it has a couple of 2-3 mile tunnels, one east of downtown Fallbrook (Rainbow) and the next east of beautiful downtown Bonsall. The section of I-15 by the latter involved moving some 27 million cu yds just to get down to 3 to 4% grades versus the 7% on hwy 395. This tunnel would be about 1.5 miles west where I used to live.

I suspect there would be another tunnel between Lawrence Welk's village and Escondido, with elevated ROW from Escondido to Miramar. After Miramar, the most logical route would be down Rose Canyon to parallel the Surf Line.

This line would not be a good one for freight, as even with tunnels there are a lot of ups and downs along the route.

I don't see the coast line being abandoned.

Certainly a freight railroad east out of the San Diego area following interstate 8 would involve some heroic base tunnels... through what I believe is a seismically active area.  That becomes more achievable if functional electrification is provided (as I expect California would demand by that point in the 22nd Century.)

I think a route following CA 94 would be more practical, heading south from downtown SD to the Otay Valley, then up to Dulzura, with tunneling and bridging needed between Dulzura and Campo. From there it would generally follow the SD&AE line to Jacumba and perhaps a tunnel from Jacumba to Ocotillo if you want to avoid Carrizo Gorge.

I would think that simply rehabilitating the SD&AE line would be cheaper than either the Del Mar bypass of San Clemente bypass.

My personal favorite would be constructing the San Diego, Cuyamaca & Eastern...

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Posted by azrail on Thursday, May 4, 2023 12:24 AM

It would also mean abandoning LA/San Diego passenger and freight service which is not going to happen. And any rail traffic heading East would be negligible...I-8 is still faster, which is why the SD&AE was never successful. 

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Posted by MidlandMike on Thursday, May 4, 2023 8:31 PM

blue streak 1

Not a geologist.  Have to wonder if these slides happen by some earth slipping but not enough yet to cause an earthquake?

 

Erosion is enough to cause a landslide.  The ocean waves lapping at the base of the bluff could undercut and cause a landslide.  Water run-off from roofs and parking lots could saturate a bluff and cause slumping.

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Thursday, May 4, 2023 10:41 PM

Now a slide south of San Luis Obisbo,Ca It has blocked startlight #11 which now has  backed up to SLO.  #11 has not moved from SLO for 5 hours.

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Posted by azrail on Saturday, May 6, 2023 2:31 AM

This is what happens in a wet year.

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