CMStPnP My Older Brother and Older Sister did in 1970 to Oshkosh at least and they were just kids back then. My Mother and Aunt both rode the 400 between Oshkosh where they lived and Marquette University in Milwaukee back in the steam era. They are both alive still. They even told me about the oscillating headlight on the E-Unit in front.
My Older Brother and Older Sister did in 1970 to Oshkosh at least and they were just kids back then. My Mother and Aunt both rode the 400 between Oshkosh where they lived and Marquette University in Milwaukee back in the steam era. They are both alive still. They even told me about the oscillating headlight on the E-Unit in front.
My grandmother lived three blocks from the Oshkosh Northwestern station. When we visited her in the late 50's through sixties, we'd always spend time at the station. I remember those Mars lights. Always liked the sidewalk automatic gates. Always will remember the trip there when the station platform roofing was torn down. So many poignant impressions.
My dad would talk about how he would commute from Oshkosh to Menasha on the night trains during summer breaks to work a grave yard batchmaker's helper job at the paper mill there.
OvermodDoesn't seem like it would be hard to find evidence or even confirming recollections of running as fast as 118mph, especially with passenger equipment not designed or (somewhat scrupulously) maintained for it.
Agree with Charlie Hebdo but I will go a step further. Highly unlikely at any point in time in Wisconsin except maybe between Chicago and Milwaukee. The C&NW line is just not engineered for that speed, IMO. I could believe 90-100 but 118 on both C&NW routes to Green Bay is highly questionable. I would also have to ask, were the Diesel locomotives even geared to attain that speed? The top speed of the remaining Union Pacific E Units is 98 mph.
As it has been over 50 years since there was passenger rail service to GB, it's doubtful there are many folks left who ever rode it. Plus the interstate was built.
I remember the superelevations on curves on the Northwestern through the Fox Cities. They were significant, but the idea that trains ran at super high speeds north of Milwaukee in the 60's is farfetched. The accounts from books like Life on a Locomotive during the glory years where the Soo Line and Northwestern often raced each other are a different story.
OvermodWhen was the actual time IC was running the 120mph with Es that I recall being mentioned in connection with one of the Steffee speed surveys?
The IC fastest track was south of Champaign but even north almost to Kankakee, the limit was 100mph in mid 60s when I was riding. I actually saw the speedometer in a City of Miami parlor car go past 100, maybe 110? Hiwever I have serious doubts about both CNW routes Milwaukee to GB having speeds above 90. Chicago to Milwaukee, yes, maybe over 100.
When was the actual time IC was running the 120mph with Es that I recall being mentioned in connection with one of the Steffee speed surveys?
Doesn't seem like it would be hard to find evidence or even confirming recollections of running as fast as 118mph, especially with passenger equipment not designed or (somewhat scrupulously) maintained for it.
The original Nystrom Hiawatha equipment was notable, for example, for having a severe trade off between ride quality and speed (in part from some of the same physics that made Decelakrons/Decelostats essential on fast Streamliners. Cars built for smooth ride above 80mph were harsh at 40 or below. (I believe Nystrom published his results, possibly as an SAE paper in the late '30s). Equipment as late as those fancy New Haven OSH trucks might have this same concern; it was "solved" to an extent with those pendulum cars, and more definitively by air-bag secondary suspension... but those are cheating a bit. You'd probably need some very long outside secondary springs, like the arrangement on an AEM-7... and doing that on a typical passenger-car shell would involve all sorts of fun...
It's not clear in what decade the 118 mph was ocurring but Fs weren't used regularly in passenger service AFAIK much before 1960. The CNW had plenty of Es and steam was running to mid 50s on some services.
Thanks! That alone was worth the price of admission.
To be honest, I've always thought it fair to allocate the high-speed track expenses - that is, all the expense above that for 'freight high speed' which might for some railroads be "passenger-train speed" on others - to passenger service. That includes the higher super elevation and all the rail and other wear that implies, the cost of more careful or frequent line and surface, higher rail weight, etc. Since C&NW as I recall standardized much of its operation around 2-speed cab-signal ATC, only the additional system cost for mandated higher-speed equipment would 'count' as a passenger-only charge... unless freight speed were pegged at 59mph or below.
I see nothing impossible about peak speed north of Milwaukee being as high as 118 if gearing permitted -- ATSF operated its early units with the Bloomberg-designed swing-hanger B trucks in that speed range, and even if I make fun of the E4b pretensions there was certainly high speed from the 400 on. Key might be to determine if track maintenance records substantiate physical ability to run that fast safely -- the time to look for would be in the late '40s, before the ICC order reimposing speed limits took effect. There are some occasionally hair-raising tales of how fast some engineers let their new diesels 'stroll out'.
I wasn't mocking the C&NW questions. Just intending to note that they were SERIOUS about questioning the degree of actual fandom. I asked much the same 'open-ended' question as they did on the old steam_tech group -- to see what humans actually wrote to show their interest as much as to keep bots and spammers out.
CSSHEGEWISCH Regarding the claim that the C&NW service north of Milwaukee did or did not lose money, it comes down to the matter of "fully allocated" vs. "solely related" expenses. This was a major item in the discussion over passenger train profitability in the mid to late 1960's.
Regarding the claim that the C&NW service north of Milwaukee did or did not lose money, it comes down to the matter of "fully allocated" vs. "solely related" expenses. This was a major item in the discussion over passenger train profitability in the mid to late 1960's.
No secret they lost their financial shirts on Wisconsin service at least from 1960 onwards. If they could have chopped all their passenger service in 1967-68 and probably earlier they would have. So not buying it was successful after 1960. Never saw a C&NW E or Alco in passenger service in the 1970's not saying they did not run them but the consists were fairly short by then unless perhaps on a holiday or some other event.
charlie hebdoIt discussed very briefly the large number of pre-Amtrak trains the CNW ran Chicago to GB, on two routes north of Milwaukee. Included was a reference to said trains reaching speeds of 115 north of Milwaukee. I found that claim unlikely.
Yes, I find that hard to believe, the highest speed train in Wisconsin in the 1960's and 1970's that I am aware of was the Hiawatha and it's top speed was between 90-100 mph on Track through or West of the Dells, not sure where that was exactly.....Camp Douglas?
I thought we had a former C&NW employee on here from Wisconsin? He might know more.
The C&NW passenger lines are mostly torn up now but the line along the lakefront to Green Bay at some or most major cities C&NW had an outer freight bypass line and a passenger line that would branch out on a curve and enter each city to the closer to downtown depot and then curve back and rejoin the mainline. I think Sheboygan was like this and Manitowoc as well not sure about the other cities. No way could they run fast on that track as the curves were pretty sharp at each city and in the city until the line rejoined the mainline. I saw old remnants of those lines as we used to drive up to Door County (Wisconsin Thumb) taking the route parallel to the C&NW lakefront line. The line to Fond Du Lac was as straight diagnol shot from far North Milwaukee to West Bend then to Fond Du Lac but it had curves in it as well and you can see them if you take a parallel road as now it is a bike path. Again the curves were not high speed design. The line through Oshkosh went right through downtown and then crossed the Fox River so train had to slow for that. Fond Du Lac it just skimmed past on the side of the city but unfortunately there was a frieght yard there so yard limit speed probably.
My Brother and Sister road the Train from Milwaukee to Oshkosh in 1970. Too young to remember if the train had any name but the internet says the 400 names were chucked at that point.... but it was pulled by a single F unit and it was 100% bi-level with no single level cars at all. I believe it was 4-5 cars at that point. I was not on the train but my Brother and Sister rode the second level and said it was just like riding a bus as far as they were concerned, the train was fairly spartan inside and I do remember they carried their luggage on board as there was no checked baggage. They never left their seats so can't tell you if it even had a snack car. The trip took 2 and a half hours in the 1970's compared with 1 and a half hours from the former C&NW Lakefront station in early 1950's, time started to slip by early 1960s in the timetable and C&NW probably dropped the single level diner long before 1970.
My opinion was the ACF Passenger cars bought by the C&NW did not wear well either and were probably also the cheapest they could get for a streamliner.
C&NW was hit the hardest by the transfer to the auto because their new cars were basically Chicago Gallery cars but with highback seats that reclined a little very spartan inside. I think because at the time of order in the 1960's C&NW knew it would exit all but Commuter service and wanted to be able to convert them cheaply.
Milwaukee's accomodations were far more comfortable but the Milwaukee started making compromises for coach cars as well to cut maintenence costs. Laminate square tile floors on steel floors for example and I remember the laminate squares becoming unattached in places and sliding around the floor of the car under the seats about 1970-1971 on a trip to Chicago. Remember the conductor even on the Chicago to Milwaukee train hurriedly walking to lock the restrooms right before each station stop because the toilets still dropped on the tracks on the coaches at least. In the sleepers for their night train I saw a photo from the Milwaukee station where they put buckets under the occupied sleepers so passengers could board the sleeper at night before the train arrived to pick it up. The buckets were to catch the restroom discharge that otherwise would drop on the tracks in the Milwaukee Station and these were the late model streamliner Pullmans bought in the 1950's. Curious who got the bucket job?
It discussed very briefly the large number of pre-Amtrak trains the CNW ran Chicago to GB, on two routes north of Milwaukee. Included was a reference to said trains reaching speeds of 115 north of Milwaukee. I found that claim unlikely.
I don't think the questions are hard, just designed to discourage trolls and bots.
"Green Bay roundhouse December 1970. Notice the "replacement" fans. No really unusual but different. I just had to put something beside an another Alco on here. Just for a change. These units were used on passenger trains at this time. Green Bay had a lot of service right up to Amtrak day. I have been told by officials that they did not lose money on them. but the accountants made it look like that. Things like ALL track maintenance needed for high speed put against passenger service, even though the freights could go faster as well with the high quality track. A friend (Okie Mullen for those who have old C&NW magazines) who ran them said he could, did and had to get 118mph out of these passenger F units to make the schedule between Milwaukee and Green Bay on either route. Notice the units in front of the roundhouse. Think Beloit WI and OP diesels."
charlie hebdoSorry if it's beneath your lofty standards, based on your smarmy comment.
As it happens, I mentioned the questions because I filled them out, and am waiting to see if they allow me to join, so I can see what your link actually points to. (I don't use Facebook for anything social, but I have an account for just such times as this.)
Will advise further when I know something.
wjstixI think most planners assume most traffic will be the other way anyway - folks from northern MN / NW Wisconsin coming to "the cities" for shopping, major league sports, etc. That being said, many Twin City folks are fond of Duluth, and I'm sure would go on weekend "mini-vacations" there, particularly in the summer when the Duluth temps are 20-30 degrees lower than that of Mpls-St.Paul!
Overnight train to Duluth from St. Paul, in which case not many people would care about running time as they would be sleeping. Return to St. Paul with an early morning departure from Duluth. This could be done with one trainset based in St.Paul and folks from Duluth could spend a good part of a day in the Twin Cities.....running time in this direction might be an issue but compensation in part is folks would arrive downtown and not have to worry about City parking.
I think the above would partly compensate for the shortcommings of routing from St. Paul.
Overmod charlie hebdo CMStPnP: If you can open this link, you might enjoy. https://www.facebook.com/groups/206063886270649/permalink/2159495007594184/?mibextid=Nif5oz The link goes to a group for C&NW fans, with almost 6,000 members. Unfortunately it's a private group, which means not only that you can't see anything unless you're a Facepalm member, but you have to answer questions three to cross their equivalent of the Bridge of Death. Why are you a C&NW fan? What are the commuter trains out of Chicago called? Be imaginative in your replies...
charlie hebdo CMStPnP: If you can open this link, you might enjoy. https://www.facebook.com/groups/206063886270649/permalink/2159495007594184/?mibextid=Nif5oz
The link goes to a group for C&NW fans, with almost 6,000 members. Unfortunately it's a private group, which means not only that you can't see anything unless you're a Facepalm member, but you have to answer questions three to cross their equivalent of the Bridge of Death. Why are you a C&NW fan? What are the commuter trains out of Chicago called? Be imaginative in your replies...
I primarily posted the link for CMStPnP's benefit. Sorry if it's beneath your lofty standards, based on your smarmy comment.
kgbw49One unique factor about the geography of the Twin Cites is that for about 50% of the population, by the time they drive to a Minneapolis station they could be about halfway to Duluth up I-35 at freeway speeds on every day except bad weather days.
That's a bit of an exageration. Per Google Maps, depot to depot, St. Paul to Duluth is 150 miles, takes 2 hr 12 min. I live 15 miles from St. Paul Union Depot, and drove past it every day going to and from work before I started working from home due to the pandemic. Even in M-F "rush hour" it took around 15-20 min. to get to SPUD. Plus I can walk a block and a half and take a bus directly to SPUD in around the same time.
I think most planners assume most traffic will be the other way anyway - folks from northern MN / NW Wisconsin coming to "the cities" for shopping, major league sports, etc. That being said, many Twin City folks are fond of Duluth, and I'm sure would go on weekend "mini-vacations" there, particularly in the summer when the Duluth temps are 20-30 degrees lower than that of Mpls-St.Paul!
charlie hebdoCMStPnP: If you can open this link, you might enjoy. https://www.facebook.com/groups/206063886270649/permalink/2159495007594184/?mibextid=Nif5oz
CMStPnPSo I would not give the current Amtrak routing proposal much credibility at this point. Personally, I think the most car competitive proposal would be relaying the C&NW track along the lakefront and using that exit route from Milwaukee and then diagnol to West Bend but I don't think Amtrak would spend the money and I am not sure the State would either. When they bring this specific coordor back they really need to look at the route out of Milwaukee if they ever want it to be even remotely viable.
CMStPnP: If you can open this link, you might enjoy.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/206063886270649/permalink/2159495007594184/?mibextid=Nif5oz
The line to Ashland has not been open for about five years, since a bridge was washed out between Park Falls and Ashland.
The BNSF line to Ashland is gone as well as the Duluth, South Shore & Atlantic.
The only line left that goes to Ashland is owned by Watco now, having puchased it in 2022 from CN who in turn got ownership of it when they purchased Wisconsin Central.
kgbw49it is too bad the direct rail bridge between Superior and Rice's Point in Duluth was removed - it would save probably 20 minutes and maybe more in travel time.
Thats a shame because Duluth and Superior are twin cities and having a train stop at both is convienence for the passenger. So I take it that BNSF also abandoned the ex-Northern Pacific between Duluth - Superior and Ashland, WI. Historically interesting because the Ashland connection to then Wisconsin Central I am sure was used by NP when it controlled WC.
I count at least two stupid rail removals in Wisconsin. The former C&NW Milwaukee to Waukesha line AND the former Milwaukee Road branch from Brookfield, WI to Waukesha. Both would have come in handy for any future Milwaukee to Waukesha rail commutte route.....saving mileage.
The Flambeau 400 lasted all the way to Amtrak. My father rode it numerous times from Green Bay to Chicago before the interstates were built out.
Summer is busier up north, but summer is really, really short up there. I have biked numerous former rail ptrails in the region.
The busy season is about 10 weeks between when schools are out in early June and Labor Day.
Cabin activity tends to last into October, however, through hunting season.
If I-35 had not been built the railroad would definitely be faster to Duluth. I have driven the "old roads" adjacent to the BNSF route to Duluth and the travel time is much longer than on I-35.
it is too bad the direct rail bridge between Superior and Rice's Point in Duluth was removed - it would save probably 20 minutes and maybe more in travel time.
kgbw49In Minnesota property taxes go to the county and municipalities.
The state is able to add a levy, regardless the state still has an interest via the sales tax levy in promoting travel and tourism:
https://www.revenue.state.mn.us/understanding-property-tax.
kgbw49Glad the Downeaster works. Hope the Northern Lights Express will work. Know a second MSP-MKE-CHI frequency will work if it can hold to its trip time.
This is the basic mistake made when people review both corridors. The assumption that nothing will ever change in schedule or infrastructure and the first start up frequency is how things will forever be. It's never happened that way and from a pure accounting perspective the first train is always the most expensive with the fixed costs and the need to reopen and potentially staff depots. Subsequent trains share the fixed costs and their startup costs are lower as is their subsidy is lower than the first train. Additionally and incrementally, even if the state makes zero improvements....Amtrak tends to spend money improving stations and sometimes on right of way to speed up transit times over the corridor. So you either see a speed up in trains or more stations open along the route and the speed stays generally the same, either of those two items will result in increases in ridership.
Also, lets not forget that just 60 miles to the East of Duluth is Ashland, WI which was found by C&NW to be a viable terminus for the "Flambeau 400" from Chicago, for so many years (it was a 1950 start-up). So while I agree in part on the population density argument between the Northeast and this corridor in the Midwest. There is very significant patronage opportunity on this route in the Summer, it's not exactly sparsely populated.
In Minnesota property taxes go to the county and municipalities.
The BNSF line to Duluth is all welded rail. Lots of grain heads in that direcation.
Regarding the Downeaster, the Boston Metropolitan Statistical Area at 5.0 Million persons is about 40% larger than the Twin Cities Statistical Area at 3.5 Million persons. Downeaster also feeds from Amtrak coming up from New York City where many residents don't own automobiles, making the train a more viable option.
Glad the Downeaster works. Hope the Northern Lights Express will work. Know a second MSP-MKE-CHI frequency will work if it can hold to its trip time.
One unique factor about the geography of the Twin Cites is that for about 50% of the population, by the time they drive to a Minneapolis station they could be about halfway to Duluth up I-35 at freeway speeds on every day except bad weather days.
GrampIt's interesting what's happening in Milwaukee. Northwestern Mutual has announced it will be moving 2,000 employees from its suburban Franklin campus to its downtown headquarters (which it's revamping and expanding). Milwaukee Tool is also moving HQ downtown. And new housing is going up a few blocks from the intermodal station. More potential traffic for Amtrak?
Make sure you swing by Central Standard Distillery and Restaurant nearby. Good food and drink. https://thecentralstandard.com/ Not a long walk from the train station either. You can see the Post Office and Station from one of the roof shots.
I heard a while back they were going to turn the huge main post office right at Intermodal Depot into some new retail development or something of that nature but have not heard much since the initial announcement years ago.
kgbw49Most-not all but most-people heading north to Duluth are trying to get way past Duluth to cabins, skiing and state and Federal parks and lands.
I have a hard time guessing what exactly is the intent of MnDOT because they always seem to me to be disorganized and not really sure of their direction. I suspect though the goal here is to make Duluth a kind of Transportation hub of sorts for Northern Minnesota and Wisconsin, North Woods folks.
I have to say though a good comparison would be, Portland, Maine only has a population of 68,000 and the Downeaster carries close to half a million people a year. in 2022 figures and close to 8.4 million since the service started up. So I wouldn't poo-poo the Amtrak projections of ridership necessarily here. I never thought the Downeaster would be the success it is with a terminus in Moose country but look at them continue to invest in and expand the service.
Additoinally, you guys are not looking at the tax ramifications here either. You bring in 3-4 RT Train frequencies a day to Duluth, property values along the line are going to increase, resulting in money for the Minnesota Treasury that was not there before. So I would be curious what the trains Economic impact is to the Minnesota Treasury minus the subsidy paid out. Which also might be part of the motivation by Minnesota.
Lets also not forget the dynamics of the Siemens trainsets either, faster acceleration and braking......slightly faster than the equipment Amtrak has now in scheduled service. The trainsets are also 125 mph capable and I would imagine MnDOT wants to at least convert portions that are not welded rail to welded rail and raise the speed on some or all the line to 90 mph if not more. The Siemens trainsets make that improvement in speed a lot more likely.
It's interesting what's happening in Milwaukee. Northwestern Mutual has announced it will be moving 2,000 employees from its suburban Franklin campus to its downtown headquarters (which it's revamping and expanding). Milwaukee Tool is also moving HQ downtown. And new housing is going up a few blocks from the intermodal station. More potential traffic for Amtrak?
blue, agree. The population of Duluth has been declining steadily - it was 86,697 at the 2020 census. It used to be well over 100,000, peaking at 106,844 in 1960.
Most-not all but most-people heading north to Duluth are trying to get way past Duluth to cabins, skiing and state and Federal parks and lands.
But returning passenger service to Duluth has been a holy grail of the MNDoT bureaucracy for several decades. The person in the interview talked about getting money to implement it. Then they will talk about getting money to operate it. The number of persons employed operating it and overseeing it will be substantial. People in MNDoT will spend whole careers administering it once it is running.
A Hiawatha extension between St. Paul and Chicago has a better chance at some farebox recovery of operating costs and with a high percentage of available seats being filled. It makes much more sense with the larger markets being served if they can keep on the advertised for trip times.
750k per year? = ~~2054 + /- 25 % ( +/- 500 a day ) hard to believe. would need 4 RTs of 6 coach cars each.
Contact Ripley;s believe it or not
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