If it was me, I'd seperate the Boston-DC corridor and offer the rights to it for free to a selected foreign operator with a good history of success. In return, they would have to commit to making all the many billions of nesessary upgrades and repairs that are needed to bring that operation up to date. They would not have to pay anything back to the Federal Government until they recouped their outlays. Once they did reach that point, they would start paying a small percentage of their annual net income back to the government. The Harrisburg to Philadelphia Amtrak owned track could also be part of the arrangement if agreeable to all parties.
The rest of Amtrak woulld still exist seperately but the states served would have to fund the routes. If a state didn't want to fund their share then either the route would be changed to avoid it if posssible or, if not possible, then the trains would not make stop in that state unless local municipalities were willing to pay for the service. All strictly intrastate service would be up to that state to pay for, with the provision states can agree to go into bordering states as long as all state involved are in agreement.
BaltACDIf it goes bankrupt - there won't be a market for the rolling stock except for scrap and scrap prices won't fund the debts the corporation is responsible for and in all likely hood the Treasury would have to expend funds on a Amtrak bankruptcy not gain funds from its dissolution.
Defunding it would not cause bankruptcy because Amtrak is also funded by the states as well as derives revenue from sources outside passenger train operations such as building leases. So if Congress halted the funds, the first thing Amtrak would do would be to borrow money to cover the immediate shortfall of funds increasing it's debt and the amount of money the taxpayers would have to pay to liquidate (which it has done in the past when Congress underfunded it).
Secondly, Amtrak would turn to the states to fund the Long Distance trains whom in turn would apply pressure back on Congress to fund Amtrak properly and the issue would boomerang back to Congress, which would cave in under the pressure from the States.
So I have serious doubts we would ever even get to promised Labor Protection Payments which would be several Billion dollars. Now Congress could terminate Amtraks charter and then withhold funds which would be more effective but even then the States would object and cut that off at the pass.
The only way your going to get rid of the Long Distance trains is either if Amtrak becomes self sufficient and no longer requires a subsidy from Congress OR if there is some kind of bipartisan negotiation and agreement in the House. Without either one of those two options LD Trains are probably here to stay in one form or another.
alphasIf it was me, I'd seperate the Boston-DC corridor and offer the rights to it for free to a selected foreign operator with a good history of success. In return, they would have to commit to making all the many billions of nesessary upgrades and repairs that are needed to bring that operation up to date. They would not have to pay anything back to the Federal Government until they recouped their outlays. Once they did reach that point, they would start paying a small percentage of their annual net income back to the government. The Harrisburg to Philadelphia Amtrak owned track could also be part of the arrangement if agreeable to all parties.
What does a foreign operator with a good history of success look like? Is there one that does not get massive funding from its government, or run on state funded rails? How is that different from Amtrak? The NEC needs $30 billion to put it in a state of good repair. Who is going to make that up in ticket revenue?
alphasThe rest of Amtrak woulld still exist seperately but the states served would have to fund the routes. If a state didn't want to fund their share then either the route would be changed to avoid it if posssible or, if not possible, then the trains would not make stop in that state unless local municipalities were willing to pay for the service. All strictly intrastate service would be up to that state to pay for, with the provision states can agree to go into bordering states as long as all state involved are in agreement.
Lets look at a (multi-) state supported route that crosses a state who doesn't support it. The Downeaster runs between Massachusetts and Maine, which support it, thru New Hampshire, which does not support it. If they would have cut the NH stops, they would have lost considerable revenue, but would not have saved coat as they have to run the same mileage thru NH. The Vermonter also runs thru NH. States like Iowa and Ohio have not supported proposed state rail services, so what is the likelyhood that they would support the current LD routes that you propose they should take over? But why should only rail passenger be Balkanized? Highways receive federal subsidy. Shouldn't that be the responsibility of the states? I remember when the New York State Thruway ended at the PA border to be dumped onto old highways. PA had their Turnpike which connected to the Ohio Turnpike, so why should they accommodate NY traffic? The Interstate Highway System corrected that. Imagine trying to drive cross-country with no standard Interstate system. Imagine the trucking system problems. Same with airports and shipping.
MidlandMikeThe NEC needs $30 billion to put it in a state of good repair. Who is going to make that up in ticket revenue?
Also, one could argue with the sheer volume of trains running over the NEC already, it should already be profitable and self-sufficient. My guess as to why it is not is because first and foremost Amtrak does not own the entire route. Secondly, I still have serious doubts that Amtrak is assessing market level charges for the use of it's track by various commuter rail systems that it hosts. I suspect a number of them are free loading on the NEC.
Long-distance train travel will be revived when Amtrak realizes LD's are as much a part of the Hospitality business as transportation, and adopts the Station Restaurant System (hotel-like kitchen, 24-hour-day, full-menue, sit-down in RR-themed decore. take-out, home-and-business delivery, and on-board train delivery) to make each trip a mini-vacation, even in coach-class. Corridor travel will also benefit.
BaltACD charlie hebdo Up the pay for engineers. On many trains conductors become redundant. Engineer only crews are so efficient when it is necessary to hand throw switches.[/sarcasm]
charlie hebdo Up the pay for engineers. On many trains conductors become redundant.
Engineer only crews are so efficient when it is necessary to hand throw switches.[/sarcasm]
1. How many Amtrak trains require conductors to operate hand-thrown switches?
2. Hand-thrown switches on passenger routes, at least, are very antiquated. It's about time America's rails caught up.
charlie hebdo BaltACD charlie hebdo Up the pay for engineers. On many trains conductors become redundant. Engineer only crews are so efficient when it is necessary to hand throw switches.[/sarcasm] 1. How many Amtrak trains require conductors to operate hand-thrown switches? 2. Hand-thrown switches on passenger routes, at least, are very antiquated. It's about time America's rails caught up.
There is a old saying S..t Happens. And in the real world, Railroading Happens.
Present rules prevent a person at the controls of a moving train from copying a Mandatory Directive (Slow Order, TWC Authority etc.) Signal systems do fail for a variety of reasons - to pass a Control Point where the Dispatcher cannot line a signal the switches may need to be lined for the train's movement. In some other instances the power switches need to be secured in the 'Hand' position for the safe movement of the train. Defect Detectors require a need for a person to inspect - sometimes on the ground, sometimes to view inspection devices that are on each car.
Railroading is not a video game.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
54light15I recall the Horn and Hardart automat restuarants in New York when I was a kid. I remember that nothing in the little glass boxes looked to be worth eating. I really don't see how that would work on a train.
That was a long time ago. Many restaurants and convenience stores sell a lot of food delivered by the box truck and cooked by Chef Mic.
Just becuase it's microwaveable doesn't mean it has to be crap.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Here's my "rules" for reforming Amtrak:
1. run trains where people live when they are awake.
Poster child for this is the Crescent. Runs through relatively newly, heavily populated Piedmont at night. Runs through rural AL, MS and LA during the day. Either flip the schedule or split it at Atlanta with hotel for overnight. Sell the through sevice with hotel and transfers. The overnight business person's schedule has been dead since 1960.
2. Stop using high value space for on board crews to sleep. Let them follow engineer and conductors recrew pattern. Sleeper space is high value. Stop wasting it. Crews should sleep in hotels and not on trains. It's not 1950 anymore.
3. Automate and self-serve as much food as possible - particularly on short haul. Even most fast food joints have you get your own soda these days. Long haul - contract out to large chains and let them figure out if it's best to cook on trains or supply pre-plated from their local facilities. Let them own all the local logisitics and allow profit motive in contract.
4. "All hands on deck" for station stops. All on-board personel man a trap to get as many doors open as possible. Too many trains have long station dwell due to bottle neck boarding on low level platforms. This is done elsewhere. Why not here?
5. Seamless through ticketing with commuter RRs. Make it like https://www.bahn.com/en
6. Do similar with airlines. Make it easy to see and ticket air - to - rail connections. Example: fly to Phila, SEPTA to 30th St, train to Lancaster. Make it easy to do train one way, air the other. Example: Denver to Emeryville on train, fly back.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
oltmannd2. Stop using high value space for on board crews to sleep. Let them follow engineer and conductors recrew pattern. Sleeper space is high value. Stop wasting it. Crews should sleep in hotels and not on trains. It's not 1950 anymore.
That's a lot of crews, a lot of deadheading, a lot of hotels - treating on board crews the same as HOS crews. Would that really sav anything?
BaltACD charlie hebdo BaltACD charlie hebdo Up the pay for engineers. On many trains conductors become redundant. Engineer only crews are so efficient when it is necessary to hand throw switches.[/sarcasm] 1. How many Amtrak trains require conductors to operate hand-thrown switches? 2. Hand-thrown switches on passenger routes, at least, are very antiquated. It's about time America's rails caught up. There is a old saying S..t Happens. And in the real world, Railroading Happens. Present rules prevent a person at the controls of a moving train from copying a Mandatory Directive (Slow Order, TWC Authority etc.) Signal systems do fail for a variety of reasons - to pass a Control Point where the Dispatcher cannot line a signal the switches may need to be lined for the train's movement. In some other instances the power switches need to be secured in the 'Hand' position for the safe movement of the train. Defect Detectors require a need for a person to inspect - sometimes on the ground, sometimes to view inspection devices that are on each car. Railroading is not a video game.
I don't play video games. I have observed modern railroading elsewhere and many old-fashioned tools of operation were discarded on main lines some time ago. They have few derailments and trains bumping into each other than we do, especially given their higher density of operations.
Rules need to step out of the 19th c.
charlie hebdo Rules need to step out of the 19th c.
So SAFETY can enter the 19th Century?
I'm sure they have to deal with frozen switches and hot boxes in Europe too, or they spend a lot more money on preventative maintenance and leaving the switch heaters and blowers on 100% of the time. Or they simply have more maintenance employees per mile of track.
In Canada the train must be secured with handbrakes before it is left unattended on the main track. "Unattended" has been defined as not being within arm's length of the train or its emergency brake valve. So in order to comply with our rules a single engineer would need to tie down the train before attempting to deal with a frozen switch.
How one is supposed to tie the train down while also remaining within arms length of the emergency brake valve is a whole other question........
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
charlie hebdoRules need to step out of the 19th c.
Won't somebody think of the shareholders?
charlie hebdo1. How many Amtrak trains require conductors to operate hand-thrown switches?
Last time I rode Cardinal, we stopped at Crawfordsville IN for the switch to be lined for the connection from the former Monon to the former NYC line to Indianapolis. Conductor walked from coach to & from switch. Don't know if an aberation or routine but he acted like it was routine.
CMStPnP MidlandMike The NEC needs $30 billion to put it in a state of good repair. Who is going to make that up in ticket revenue? Also, one could argue with the sheer volume of trains running over the NEC already, it should already be profitable and self-sufficient. My guess as to why it is not is because first and foremost Amtrak does not own the entire route. Secondly, I still have serious doubts that Amtrak is assessing market level charges for the use of it's track by various commuter rail systems that it hosts. I suspect a number of them are free loading on the NEC.
MidlandMike The NEC needs $30 billion to put it in a state of good repair. Who is going to make that up in ticket revenue?
I think the only part of the NEC that Amtrak does not own is MetroNorth's from NY to New Haven. I am pretty sure you are right about ATK charging less than proportional to the commuter lines. But maybe ATK gets a break on that section that is owned by MetroNorth. It seems surprising that they would give commuter agencies a break, when they charge states full price on state corridor trains.
MidlandMike... I think the only part of the NEC that Amtrak does not own is MetroNorth's from NY to New Haven. I am pretty sure you are right about ATK charging less than proportional to the commuter lines. But maybe ATK gets a break on that section that is owned by MetroNorth. It seems surprising that they would give commuter agencies a break, when they charge states full price on state corridor trains.
Amtrak is a political entity - there is nothing more political than payments by governmental commuter agencies to anyone, especially to another political entity.
MidlandMikeI think the only part of the NEC that Amtrak does not own is MetroNorth's from NY to New Haven. I am pretty sure you are right about ATK charging less than proportional to the commuter lines. But maybe ATK gets a break on that section that is owned by MetroNorth. It seems surprising that they would give commuter agencies a break, when they charge states full price on state corridor trains.
It just amazes me with the sheer volume of trains that Amtrak cannot maintain the NEC in a state of good repair and is not even turning a profit on the use charges. Something is wrong somewhere that corridor is at or near capacity in certain areas and it's not even covering the track cost? It should not matter that Amtrak is losing money and the commuter trains are state run. Each train should be paying what it costs to use the route plus a margin percentage. It's very troubling for Amtrak's financial future they cannot even get this track infrastructure support model working. It is pretty basic to their viability.
I can see the NEC not being able to support itself if most of it was light density but from the maps I looked at, looks like it's pretty heavily used.
CMStPnP MidlandMike I think the only part of the NEC that Amtrak does not own is MetroNorth's from NY to New Haven. I am pretty sure you are right about ATK charging less than proportional to the commuter lines. But maybe ATK gets a break on that section that is owned by MetroNorth. It seems surprising that they would give commuter agencies a break, when they charge states full price on state corridor trains. It just amazes me with the sheer volume of trains that Amtrak cannot maintain the NEC in a state of good repair and is not even turning a profit on the use charges. Something is wrong somewhere that corridor is at or near capacity in certain areas and it's not even covering the track cost? It should not matter that Amtrak is losing money and the commuter trains are state run. Each train should be paying what it costs to use the route plus a margin percentage. It's very troubling for Amtrak's financial future they cannot even get this track infrastructure support model working. It is pretty basic to their viability. I can see the NEC not being able to support itself if most of it was light density but from the maps I looked at, looks like it's pretty heavily used.
MidlandMike I think the only part of the NEC that Amtrak does not own is MetroNorth's from NY to New Haven. I am pretty sure you are right about ATK charging less than proportional to the commuter lines. But maybe ATK gets a break on that section that is owned by MetroNorth. It seems surprising that they would give commuter agencies a break, when they charge states full price on state corridor trains.
One word - Politics
SD70Dude I'm sure they have to deal with frozen switches and hot boxes in Europe too, or they spend a lot more money on preventative maintenance and leaving the switch heaters and blowers on 100% of the time. Or they simply have more maintenance employees per mile of track. In Canada the train must be secured with handbrakes before it is left unattended on the main track. "Unattended" has been defined as not being within arm's length of the train or its emergency brake valve. So in order to comply with our rules a single engineer would need to tie down the train before attempting to deal with a frozen switch. How one is supposed to tie the train down while also remaining within arms length of the emergency brake valve is a whole other question........
I don't think the operational plan of say DB is the same as CN. For one the track structure is different. DB uses mixed passenger and frieght on their less than 120 mph lines but the frieghts do not stop to set out and pick up cars anywhere, they operate between frieght yards. Above 120 mph it is entirely passenger. I never once saw a DB frieght train doing switching on the mainline. Instead DB has a network of secondary lines that are purely frieght in most cases where that switching is done. In some cases the secondary line parallels the mixed frieght and passenger line. In other cases it forges it's own route. So the manifest pickup and setout trains if they run at all would be on the secondary lines that are largely devoid of any passenger traffic.
BTW, I don't know how DB assembled it's system together but it is very much different than the United States, car capacities are less, trains are shorter, usually at most two electric locos in tandem on an intercity frieght and it operates non-stop between terminals except for signals. Manifests are like the old version of the locals the United States used to run. Small or medium sized switch engine usually diesel not electric and usually on a secondary line that may or may not be electrified. The switch engines bring in the freight to the big city yards that originate between terminals unless it is a unit train. Unit trains operate via the 120 mph mixed passenger and freight line. Not sure if that clarifies things more but it was my observation in the 1980s. United States hauls everything on a single mainline between point A and B usually. Not in Germany they have multiple lines and usually more than two so one can be secondary and dedicated to local freights. They also have a few private railroads still but they are like shortlines in size. Also have very high speed lines for passenger > 150 mph and secondary lower speed passenger lines with freight up to 120 mph that parallel each other that you can chose between the two on some city pairs.
I concur with your observations. It's more or less this way in the 21st C on DB.
Sounds a lot less profitable than the North American model.
Also, unless it never snows or rains in Germany they will still have to deal with frozen switches and signal problems at least sometimes. Nothing is infallible, not even German engineering.
SD70Dude Nothing is infallible, not even German engineering.
Nothing is infallible, not even German engineering.
We had a VW Passat which we bought new. It was the most unreliable car we've ever owned.
And the Siemens locos have had a sketchy start.
German engineering is over-rated.
Still in training.
Lithonia OperatorVW Passat
He-he-he-he. You get what you pay for just as you do in the United States. Have you bought or driven a BMW 300 series or above? Mercedes 300 series or above?
SD70Dude Sounds a lot less profitable than the North American model. Also, unless it never snows or rains in Germany they will still have to deal with frozen switches and signal problems at least sometimes. Nothing is infallible, not even German engineering.
No clue on how they handle cold weather ops. I do seem to remember their switchboards are lit in at least some cases though so you can tell the position of the switch without the red or green light. Lets see I think the lighted symbol "/" means switch is open to diverge off track your on and the symbol "|" means switch is closed for straight ahead traffic. Pretty simple to remember and they are black symbols on a white lit background.
Now if it was an American Class I railroad the rules would probably be "/" means diverging if your able to balance on your right toe, the moon is full and your moving in a forwards direction otherwise it would be "/?". "|" would be straight aligned unless your birthdate falls on an odd day, then it would depend on lunar cycle promity otherwise it would be "|?". Of course I think there are more accidents on rails in America due to confusion......though I can't imagine why that is.
CMStPnP Lithonia Operator VW Passat He-he-he-he. You get what you pay for just as you do in the United States. Have you bought or driven a BMW 300 series or above? Mercedes 300 series or above?
Lithonia Operator VW Passat
E38 BMW 12-cylinder —probably the best car I ever owned; one of those ‘light aircraft on wheels’. You did have to budget for the stuff that would go wrong, and there were the usual magical mystery tour failures in the electrical wiring from time to time... but 28.5mpg at 82mph in regular program, and really quick acceleration in Sport, were worth the price. Likewise the 850i; every little switch, control and pixel was perfect.
I might add I got my daughter a used 2010 VW CC (which is the same thing mechanically as a Passat) and while there are a few things that broke, they were easy to fix... up until the rear window circuit failed and no one, dealer or otherwise, could figure it out.
Now, the flip side of this was the R500. When I bought it, there was a little light lit in the dashboard, a picture of a little R-class with an arrow underneath. I said to the dealer ‘if I buy this, you’ll get that light out, right?’ and he agreed... over $18,000 if parts and labor later, they finally got the light out... for two days. There is a limit on how many times you can shift the transmission before the expensive little motor expensively stuck atop the transmission will strip its cheap intermediate gear out. But that is better than the pano roof motor, which I could never get to shut more than twice before failing... and there is no emergency crank; you have to take down the whole inside fascia, loosen the motor, and crank gears by hand... better hope it doesn’t rain. Oh, and it got 2 better mpg after one of the front axle shafts fell out.
I've had two Honda Accords. Same price point as the Passat. Excellent cars, the Accords.
CMStPnP SD70Dude Sounds a lot less profitable than the North American model. Also, unless it never snows or rains in Germany they will still have to deal with frozen switches and signal problems at least sometimes. Nothing is infallible, not even German engineering. No clue on how they handle cold weather ops. I do seem to remember their switchboards are lit in at least some cases though so you can tell the position of the switch without the red or green light. Lets see I think the lighted symbol "/" means switch is open to diverge off track your on and the symbol "|" means switch is closed for straight ahead traffic. Pretty simple to remember and they are black symbols on a white lit background. Now if it was an American Class I railroad the rules would probably be "/" means diverging if your able to balance on your right toe, the moon is full and your moving in a forwards direction otherwise it would be "/?". "|" would be straight aligned unless your birthdate falls on an odd day, then it would depend on lunar cycle promity otherwise it would be "|?". Of course I think there are more accidents on rails in America due to confusion......though I can't imagine why that is.
Not sure what you're getting at, in North America you also cannot get a permissive signal indication across a power switch if the switch is not locked in place, and many signal indications will also indicate which route you will be taking if you are familiar with the territory.
We also have remote-control (DTMF) power switches and derails in many large yards, and they are starting to be installed at large customer sites or sidings in dark territory out here.
While the signals, indicators and meanings vary from location to location they are all explained in the timetable or local terminal manual, and the crews who work each subdivision or yard will know the indications for their local system(s).
They are ALL vulnerable to snow and rain, and the only ways to deal with those problems are for someone to get outside and operate the switch manually, or fix the problem. Well, or wait until it gets nice and warm and dry again.
CMStPnPHe-he-he-he.
Are you a Lamaze coach?
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
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