While Amtrak has trains radiating to all points on the compass out of Chicago, I'm curious why there isn't a Florida train. Seems a route through Nashville and Atlanta would generate decent passenger loads.
BLS53While Amtrak has trains radiating to all points on the compass out of Chicago, I'm curious why there isn't a Florida train. Seems a route through Nashville and Atlanta would generate decent passenger loads.
After the Floridans last derailment on CSX and the train was discontinued. There were talks of reviving it and the then head of CSX stated that would only happen over his dead body. Perhaps attitudes might change slightly after the current STB go between on the NO to Mobile service. However, I do remember that specifically CSX was very hostile to bringing that train back and let it be known via various leaked comments.
Not sure why Amtrak has not pressed the issue other than the original Floridans schedule was horrendously slow and subject to massive weather delays when it snowed......so that is probably why. Operationally, Amtrak had to deal with horrible track, crappy snow operations and fairly massive freight train interference. Amtrak is interested in a extension of Chicago to Indianapolis through Louisville to Nashville but the train would terminate there. So apparently past issues were between Nashville and Jacksonville. If I remember correctly most of the Floridans and Auto Train's (Louisville departure) derailments were in the deep South.
I think part of the issue was Auto-Train stiffed CSX on payments via bankruptcy. And there was anger over the Floridan derailments because they were thought due to the Amtrak Locomotive trucks or something to that effect (which to me sounds like finger-pointing due to bad track).
Back in the day there were three Chicago- Miami runs, on different routes, on a every third day basis to generate a daily trains between end points - The City of Miami was the IC's baby; The South Wind was the PRR's entry and The Dixie Flagler was the C&EI's train. All three operated on the FEC between Jacksonville and Miami with each train having its own route between Chicago and Jacksonvile. The City of Miami ran via Birmingham and CofG Albany ACL beyond. The South Wind ran via Louisville and L&N Montgomery ACL beyond. The Dixie Flagler ran via Evansville and L&N Atlanta ACL beyond - it was discontinued in 1957.
With the comng of Amtrak in 1971 only the South Wind's route survived and even then it was only until November 1971.
In simple terms, there wasn't sufficient business to warrant continued operation.
In today's world, CSX controls most of the routes between Chicago & Jacksonville as well as being Amtrak's only route from Jacksonville all the other Florida destinations. CSX will fight any expansion of Amtrak service, especially on routes that are currently freight only.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Back in the day, most Florida traffic seemed like it was bound for Miami. In the past 20-30 years since Disney World was built, a sizeable segment goes to Orlando or Tampa.
BaltACD BLS53 While Amtrak has trains radiating to all points on the compass out of Chicago, I'm curious why there isn't a Florida train. Seems a route through Nashville and Atlanta would generate decent passenger loads. Back in the day there were three Chicago- Miami runs, on different routes, on a every third day basis to generate a daily trains between end points - The City of Miami was the IC's baby; The South Wind was the PRR's entry and The Dixie Flagler was the C&EI's train. All three operated on the FEC between Jacksonville and Miami with each train having its own route between Chicago and Jacksonvile. The City of Miami ran via Birmingham and CofG Albany ACL beyond. The South Wind ran via Louisville and L&N Montgomery ACL beyond. The Dixie Flagler ran via Evansville and L&N Atlanta ACL beyond - it was discontinued in 1957. With the comng of Amtrak in 1971 only the South Wind's route survived and even then it was only until November 1971. In simple terms, there wasn't sufficient business to warrant continued operation. In today's world, CSX controls most of the routes between Chicago & Jacksonville as well as being Amtrak's only route from Jacksonville all the other Florida destinations. CSX will fight any expansion of Amtrak service, especially on routes that are currently freight only.
BLS53 While Amtrak has trains radiating to all points on the compass out of Chicago, I'm curious why there isn't a Florida train. Seems a route through Nashville and Atlanta would generate decent passenger loads.
There were more trains than those three. Now nobody would want to spend that much time on a train.
"KCS Fan: In addition to the streamliners there was daily heavyweight coach and Pullman service between Chicago and Florida provided by the IC's Seminole, the C&EI's Dixie Flyer and Dixie Limited and the PRR's Southland (which ran via Cincinnati and Atlanta). Additionally there was through sleeping car service via the Big Four (NYC) between Chicago and Cincinnati and the Southern's Royal Palm and Ponce de Leon between Cincy and Florida.
Mark"
There aren't enough people still living that would put up with Amtrak from Chicago to Miami or Orlando.
alphasThere aren't enough people still living that would put up with Amtrak from Chicago to Miami or Orlando.
You can't make a blanket statement like that.
There is a very large retired community in South Florida from Wisconsin and Northern Illinois. A number of them cannot or do not want to fly and would happily pay to have their car transported on a private carrier if the train was available vs driving their car themselves. Thats just the retired folks. Some college kids would take the train for Spring Break if the coach fares were cheaper than air and the train was faster than the bus.
Amtrak could make a train like that work with the proper timetable, marketing and price points on the tickets AND it could even partner with a private auto-carrier firm in a pseudo AUTO-TRAIN operation without having to buy rail auto carriers.
There was a brief period when the Floridian and the Louisville section of the Auto Train operated as one train. However, the two trains were still completely separate operations with regards to equipment and marketing (?).
Based on traveling times "IF" auto train near indianopolis . Maybe even BEECH Grove? Then near Pittsburg. Combine trains and follow Capitol limited route toward WASH, Then use the CSX bypass thru Virginia AVE Tunnel and then on to Sanford.
That's a the roundabout way to get to Florida.
With all the mergers, abandonments, etc over the last 45 years, are any of the legacy routes still viable?
Backshop That's a the roundabout way to get to Florida. With all the mergers, abandonments, etc over the last 45 years, are any of the legacy routes still viable?
I just found this from 2020, rather curious that Amtrak did not mention this at all as a possibility after the infrastructure bill passed. I think if they can swing Chicago to Nashville...............then Nashville to Atlanta as the link below suggests. Whats left? Atlanta to Savannah to Jacksonville? Heck you could easily bus from Atlanta to Savannah to connect with the NYC to Florida trains.
https://atlanta.curbed.com/2020/2/20/21144408/atlanta-nashville-amtrak-passenger-rail-gdot
Though I think Nashville to Atlanta would be problematic for the host railroad. Maybe not if the Feds advanced enough money to make it a corridor.
"alphas There aren't enough people still living that would put up with Amtrak from Chicago to Miami or Orlando."
"You can't make a blanket statement like that.
Amtrak could make a train like that work with the proper timetable, marketing and price points on the tickets AND it could even partner with a private auto-carrier firm in a pseudo AUTO-TRAIN operation without having to buy rail auto carriers."
Alright, I'll amend my statement to say "There's not enough people alive that would be willing to pay what was needed for Amtrak not to take a huge financial bath on the Chicago to Florida service."
As for Amtrak beating express bus service offered by the various carriers either financially or time-wise, I doubt very much that's possible given Amtrak's record in recent years. Of course, the Feds could always agree to spend hundreds of millions or more to upgrade the freight rail lines enough to provide for a train a day Chicago to Florida. I certainly hope not from a taxpayer standpoint. As for students riding a train to Florida, they certainly are not going to do it for a week spring break or similar. They will either drive straight through, fly using the discount or charter airlines, or take charter buses straight through [if the trip isn't too long]. Many student goverments or student affairs offices already arrange these air and bus charters for spring break and other peak student travel.
alphas While Amtrak has trains radiating to all points on the compass out of Chicago, I'm curious why there isn't a Florida train. Seems a route through Nashville and Atlanta would generate decent passenger loads. There aren't enough people still living that would put up with Amtrak from Chicago to Miami or Orlando.
This could be applied even more so to the west coast trains, but they exist.
Georgia has made plans for a maglev from Atlanta to Chattanooga. Tennessee would like Nashville to Atlanta. People from Kentucky and other northern states would like a train to Louisville and then to Nashville.
CSX in 2018 under Jim Foote and following E. Hunter Harrison‘s PSR guidelines, had the former L&N from Cincinnati to Louisville to Nashville up for sale. CSX had a shorter way from Chicago to Nashville. CSX also had Nashville to Chattanooga for sale. CSX freight was mostly going to Birmingham and south. CSX also had most of the B&O route from St Louis across southern Illinois and Indiana toward Cincinnati and a lot of other routes for sale. What CSX still has for sale or for the right price is an open question. PSR might still demand some sales.
Jim200but only the FRA wants Louisville to Nashville.
Why would the FRA care about passenger service?
Lived 2 years in Louisville suburbs and 18 months near Nashville the route just South of Louisville is almost mountainous with it's grades and curves and is very scenic. Then just before Nashville there is this large drop in elevation (on freeway, not sure if it is mimic'd on rail line). Anyway putting a passenger train on that portion of the single track line has to be murder on CSX frieght operations.
Can't speak for Nashville to Atlanta but I would guess given what I know about geography / topography, that line is probably rife with sharp curves and steep grades as well.
Perhaps the route of the City of Miami subject to some modifications?
CMStPnPWhy would the FRA care about passenger service?
Mission
The Federal Railroad Administration’s mission is to enable the safe, reliable, and efficient movement of people and goods for a strong America, now and in the future.
CMStPnP Can't speak for Nashville to Atlanta but I would guess given what I know about geography / topography, that line is probably rife with sharp curves and steep grades as well.
Backshop CMStPnP Can't speak for Nashville to Atlanta but I would guess given what I know about geography / topography, that line is probably rife with sharp curves and steep grades as well. Mountainous, as well. It climbs over the Cumberland Plateau and even in diesel times there was a helper grade at Cowan.
Mountainous, as well. It climbs over the Cumberland Plateau and even in diesel times there was a helper grade at Cowan.
On CSX Nashville to Atlanta is nominally all single track in addition to the grades and curvature.
CMStPnP Jim200 but only the FRA wants Louisville to Nashville. Why would the FRA care about passenger service?
Jim200 but only the FRA wants Louisville to Nashville.
...the route just South of Louisville is almost mountainous with its grades and curves and is very scenic.
...putting a passenger train on that portion of the single track line has to be murder on CSX frieght operations.
Personally I don't think there is insufferable peak traffic either north or south of Bowling Green that could not accommodate an Amtrak train (or AutoTrain consist) but it should be easy to take traffic counts to establish this for the anticipated 'windows' one way or t'other. There should be little difficulty initially running at whatever 'track speed' is to fit in with PSR traffic -- which won't want to be speeding up and slowing down anyway.
I don't recall the precise route of the City of Miami beyond IC and CofG, but track to Jackson is certainly much faster than the routes through Indiana.
Here is the 1941 schedule (courtesy of Streamliner Memories.)
Very fast to Carbondale, faster now with the Illinois project to improve this stretch. Then via Fulton down to Jackson (TN), thence to Corinth and then via Jasper (along the route of what is now I-24, I believe) to Birmingham. Here it went to C of G via Columbus, NOT Atlanta, to Waycross, where ACL took it to Jacksonville. FEC or course took it from there down the east coast; there was a connecting train on ACL that served Sanford (a logical stop for a revived train!), Orlando, and Tampa.
For comparison here is possibly the last pre-Amtrak schedule (Jan 1971). Note the west-coast connection is now via SCL, to St. Pete (with lowly bus service to anything else of interest from there!) I doubt replicating this would be anyone's idea of a proper west-coast connection...
Is it possible to get it from Birmingham to Atlanta and then split sections for East and West coasts (of Florida)?
charlie hebdoIs it possible to get it from Birmingham to Atlanta and then split sections for East and West coasts (of Florida)?
There is already an Amtrak train that goes across from Birmingham by way of Anniston and Douglasville. It puts a major dent in the considerable freight traffic on that line. Another one would be unspeakable... and that's before you figure out how to get yet another 'faster' and priority train through the hell that is Atlanta trackage.
Then you have nice congested lines out of Atlanta for your 'sections' -- plus the fun of switching out the train in Atlanta??
If I were you, I'd set this idea aside, and never, ever revisit it. If you want to offer service to Atlanta from the northern points on that train, have them lay over or change in Birmingham or whatever. Even a modern bus ride down I-20 is preferable to the awful fate you'd get by routing the thing as you propose.
I know the Crescent is operating like it's in a 4th world banana republic. However, if the FRA actually cares about passengers as they say in a Mission Statement (yes yes CMStPnP says no to that) maybe there is room for another track and redoing Atlanta rails. After all, they worked fine 60-70 years ago.
Something you got me thinking about, though, would be to combine the Chicago consist with the Crescent at Birmingham, operate the thing through the Atlanta confusion as one freight-train-length City of Everywhere thing, double-stop in Atlanta and cut off the Crescent after the second stop is made and send it on its way.
You'd want distributed power on what is now a 'midtrain' consist. That might be easily arranged on the new Siemens power...
Not sure I'd run full east and west-coast trains through... I would definitely retain a stop at Sanford or similar location that would serve the automobile traffic. You would find a logical 'division' point between east and west coast sections if you wanted them FAR south of Atlanta... someone more familiar with lines south of there could indicate a modern-day ideal point to make the split/join.
Overmod Something you got me thinking about, though, would be to combine the Chicago consist with the Crescent at Birmingham, operate the thing through the Atlanta confusion as one freight-train-length City of Everywhere thing, double-stop in Atlanta and cut off the Crescent after the second stop is made and send it on its way. You'd want distributed power on what is now a 'midtrain' consist. That might be easily arranged on the new Siemens power... Not sure I'd run full east and west-coast trains through... I would definitely retain a stop at Sanford or similar location that would serve the automobile traffic. You would find a logical 'division' point between east and west coast sections if you wanted them FAR south of Atlanta... someone more familiar with lines south of there could indicate a modern-day ideal point to make the split/join.
Sensible. I've never been a Florida guy but I am a Chicago area guy. I seem to recall from the (very) dim recesses of my mind that the older set of snowbirds tend to favor the West coast. That may not be true any longer but it would make the whole deal a lot simpler for an AutoTrain.
Overmod Something you got me thinking about, though, would be to combine the Chicago consist with the Crescent at Birmingham, operate the thing through the Atlanta confusion as one freight-train-length City of Everywhere thing, double-stop in Atlanta and cut off the Crescent after the second stop is made and send it on its way. You'd want distributed power on what is now a 'midtrain' consist. That might be easily arranged on the new Siemens power...
You can do that with the current equipment. In fact, VIA has done this exact sort of operation for decades between Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal. They are called "J-trains".
http://www.railpictures.ca/?attachment_id=26545
The 'Rupert Rocket' (later 'Skeena', now unnamed No. 5 and No. 6) used to originate and terminate in Edmonton instead of Jasper, and would be coupled to the rear of the Super Continental for the eastern portion of the run.
http://www.railpictures.ca/?attachment_id=9317
You only need DP or MU cables through the whole train if you need the power of the middle unit at all times. Otherwise you can just leave it idling and set the brakes up for 'dead haul' (automatic cut out and independent in lead with the independent handle in the released position), then the unit will just be along for the ride and its brakes will behave like any other car.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
OvermodHere it went to C of G via Columbus,
Heh, is that the line that goes through Fort Benning, GA past the Sand Hill, Infantry training barracks. There is some C of G line that does. In 1982, it was in fairly good shape with approx 4-5 trains a day. 2007, it looked significantly downgraded from 1982, no idea as to number of trains in 2007. Thats if it is the same line.....which I think it is because it says Fort Benning, GA on the CofG map. I would guess the line is 35 mph now, in 1982 it was easily 45 mph or higher. So Birmingham, AL to Americus, GA (through Columbus) is still in place but would require some money for upgrading. The railroad crossings through Fort Benning would need to be upgraded as well, they had fairly old signals......some only cross bucks. Probably Americus, GA is also still there though I have no clue as to condition to Albany. Zero clue on the now CSX connection in Albany, GA. I think the former SAL through Columbus is torn up, if not in GA then in FL. Is there still a West Coast SAL or SCL North of Tampa? Have my doubts. Remember a car trip using that routing to Naples and saw no tracks in Western Florida beyond the East West NO to Jacksonville line. Could have been I missed them but the former SCL/SAL from Georgia through West Coast of Florida from old rail maps looked like it was always a light density line traffic wise...........so would not surprise me if it is all abandoned now.
charlie hebdo I don't recall the precise route of the City of Miami beyond IC and CofG, but track to Jackson is certainly much faster than the routes through Indiana.
My knowledge may not be current, but last I knew the old line from Fulton KY to Birmingham, was bought by the NS. They ran to Fulton, and then had trackage rights on the CN to Centralia IL, where they got on their own line into St. Louis. There's also a short line, West Tennessee RR, that had some sort of a lease on portions of it. Some of the line may be abandoned by now, I don't know. I had some Aunts and Uncles down that way, but they are gone now, and the last I railfanned that line was about 20 years ago. Track was in good shape then, at least through Martin TN.
If it means anything, I never see any NS trains on the CN from Cairo to Centralia anymore.
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