This has been on the drawing board for years, but there may be changes.
Louisiana and Mississippi have both been on board for years, but Alabama has not.
If Amtrak is willing to pick up the cost, it might finally happen.
https://www.bizneworleans.com/amtrak-plans-train-station-upgrades-if-gulf-coast-route-approved/
New Orleans feels this would be a major help for tourist dollars, and Mississippi is looking for traffic to their casinos along the Gulf coast. I don't think Mobile sees much return for the cost.
York1 John
This issue has been kicking around for a while with both CSX and NS strongly opposed to almost any proposal.
York1If Amtrak is willing to pick up the cost, it might finally happen.
Um, not so much. Amtrak is getting ahead of itself again. If you look at the update I posted on the Chicago to Twin Cities route you will see how that Amtrak program pans out. Amtrak picks up the full cost in the first year only after that over the next few years the cost rapidly tapers off to the states. So at most this train will only be running maybe 2 years before the states really have to step forward with subsidy money and if they do not then Amtrak will pull the plug.
The other strength of the program is neither Amtrak nor the States are really paying 100% for the rail improvements the railroads demand. They are pulling that money from other grants from the Feds, so they get a deep discount there and Amtrak does as well.
That is the working template for all their "We have money now to run trains on our own" programs with the states participating. It is not a program for Amtrak to foot the bill, it is a program to get the states hooked by overcomming the initial price shock of startup costs. In effect if the states renew beyond 5 years to 10, Amtrak will make the money back it extended the first two years plus probably more money than that because of the markup Amtrak has on it's services.
The states and Amtrak get a huge financial break from the rail improvements being demanded as Amtrak and/or the states pull almost all that money in via grants from other Federal or State Programs...........slashing startup costs even more.
CMStPnPAmtrak is getting ahead of itself again.
I agree with you. Amtrak might get it started, but the states, especially Alabama, will not want to put in the money needed to keep it going.
Mississippi and Louisiana have pie in the sky ideas of an economic boon with this train, although I can't picture that much since the drive is only three hours by car. The Mississippi casinos are only an hour away by car from New Orleans, which has its own casinos.
With all that, I think the biggest issue will be this route would be on CSX track, and CSX is very much against it. They are busy enough without Amtrak.
York1 CMStPnP Amtrak is getting ahead of itself again. I agree with you. Amtrak might get it started, but the states, especially Alabama, will not want to put in the money needed to keep it going. Mississippi and Louisiana have pie in the sky ideas of an economic boon with this train, although I can't picture that much since the drive is only three hours by car. The Mississippi casinos are only an hour away by car from New Orleans, which has its own casinos. With all that, I think the biggest issue will be this route would be on CSX track, and CSX is very much against it. They are busy enough without Amtrak.
CMStPnP Amtrak is getting ahead of itself again.
If Amtrak expects to get any patronage on the train, they will call it 'The Gambler' and market it to those who patronize the Gulf Coast casinos. Outside of that clentele who is traveling between New Orleans and Mobile?
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACDIf Amtrak expects to get any patronage on the train, they will call it 'The Gambler' and market it to those who patronize the Gulf Coast casinos. Outside of that clentele who is traveling between New Orleans and Mobile?
In a better situation, Amtrak could run the train from New Orleans to Orlando (Jacksonville connecting to Orlando).
That would at least allow traffic from Texas and further west to connect to Florida.
Again, the issue would be Alabama. They have very little to gain, other than if the train could stop east of Mobile along the Gulf. There are nice beaches there.
At one time, Mississippi was one of very few places that had casinos. They drew tourists from a large area. Now, they are just one of many states with casinos.
That said, if a family in Dallas or Houston is going to visit Disneyworld, are they willing to use two days of their vacation each way riding a train, or spend extra days at Disney after a 2½ hour plane flight?
York1The Mississippi casinos are only an hour away by car from New Orleans, which has its own casinos.
Yeah and I can tell you the Dallas experience with the Shreveport Casinos is they are happy with bus service and will not pay more to subsidize a train. It was attempted twice to help pay for Dallas to Meridian, Miss train to connect with the Southern Crescent. Both times the Casinos backed away once they saw what they would be expected to contribute and the overall cost of the service.
York1CSX is very much against it. They are busy enough without Amtrak.
True as that maybe they are under pressure from the Federal DOT along with the STB to comply with Amtrak's wishes. In fact Sec of DOT Butigeg told Amtrak to push hard on the service and the Feds would back them up. Ultimately, the project is probably going to go through initially because of Federal lobbying and support but will later fail because of lack of grass roots support.
I keep making the statement here in the Forums that the key to State Service and the Template to follow is what was done in Wisconsin. Get the core of local businesses on board, then develope some grass roots support, then approach the State DOT who will approach Amtrak. Without that complete chain.....I don't see how Amtrak state supported service will last or be spared budget cuts later. Wisconsin did well with the Hiawatha service because ultimately they were replacing approx 60-70 trains a day between Chicago and Milwaukee that existed in the 1940's-1950's that the kids of the WWII generation remembered, then of course Milwaukee has a LOT of businessmen that do business in Chicago and shuttle their employees back and forth and used to depend on both C&NW and Milwaukee Road passenger trains between Chicago and Milwaukee. There was also somewhat of a demand for Milwaukee to Kansas City as well as Chicago to Toronto.
People scoff at the idea of a Detroit to Toronto Train now but they are rather not well informed there either. GM and Ford both have a chunk of Detroit staff that cross the river each day from Windsor, Ont as well as business operations in and around Toronto, Ont. Ford will recruit heavily from Ont for the new Michigan Central Station development.....So will Google. You have ridership between Detroit and Toronto just with the automakers alone, not to mention their parts suppliers. And to top it off the Dearborn Station is right across the street from Ford's World HQ. The Toronto train already has key business and grass roots support as well. Crossing the Canadian Border by car or bus in Detroit is a royal pain and very time consumming. Train could speed that crossing up and be time competitive there. Not to mention that the train station in Toronto is right downtown at a major 4 star hotel and has excellent service with GO Transit trains.
York1That would at least allow traffic from Texas and further west to connect to Florida
Amtrak's fixation is via Shreveport, LA and to Meridian, Ms to connect with the Southern Crescent. Agreed they should restore the Floridian train on some route from Chicago and via Atlanta or Birmingham (I don't think the Floridian is in the cards south of Nashville).
BaltACDOutside of that clentele who is traveling between New Orleans and Mobile?
The demand started with a mass exodus right after Hurricane Katrina. Amtrak ran special trains between New Orleans and Mobile for a while that were paid for via FEMA I believe to evacuate people before the Hurricane hit. A lot of folks just moved to Mobile instead of returning to New Orleans after the Hurricane. We had a similar impact to Houston, Austin and Dallas. A lot of those folks still have family or extended family members in New Orleans. I have no idea what the demand is for the service beyond that but initially the real push for the service was post Hurricane Katrina.
Some of it also was the highly favorable comments Amtrak got back from people that rode the trains. Of course the trains were also equipped with Superliners vs single level cars....sooo.
CMStPnPAmtrak's fixation is via Shreveport, LA and to Meridian, Ms to connect with the Southern Crescent. Agreed they should restore the Floridian train on some route from Chicago and via Atlanta or Birmingham (I don't think the Floridian is in the cards south of Nashville).
Which is part of what I don't understand.
A large part of tourist travel in the U.S. is to Florida. Yet from the west and plains states, there is no train going anywhere near Florida. Even the new proposed routes go through Atlanta to the coast, then south.
CMStPnPI keep making the statement here in the Forums that the key to State Service and the Template to follow is what was done in Wisconsin.
Yes...but. I think you will find Illinois has been a leader in the Midwest with both in-state services (to Carbondale, Quincy and St.L.) as well as a participant in multi-state services such as to MKE, Grand Rapids and Detroit.
charlie hebdoYes...but. I think you will find Illinois has been a leader in the Midwest with both in-state services (to Carbondale, Quincy and St.L.) as well as a participant in multi-state services such as to MKE, Grand Rapids and Detroit.
With Chicago to Milwaukee the converse is also true with people having business in Milwaukee that would rather not take an all stops METRA train if METRA had the ability to cross the border on the Milwaukee line. So yes.
I focused on Wisconsin because they pay 75% of the subsidy, Illinois pays 25%. Milwaukee is a lot smaller than Chicago obviously so voices are more apt to be be heard in Milwaukee City Hall and passed onto Madison vs heard in Chicago and passed onto Springfield......just my two cents.
BTW, the second Chicago to Twin Cities train is planned to be 3 Siemens Coaches and 1 Siemens Cafe Car. That last item is a curiousity because I have not seen a Siemens Cafe car in the Midwestern Pool Order yet. Though I heard a rumor they were to be ordered. The MnDOT guy spilled the beans on that stating that the second Twin Cities train will be shorter than the Empire Builder and will not activate the crossing gates at some station stops as a result when it is stopped.
CMStPnPThe demand started with a mass exodus right after Hurricane Katrina.
What is being added is at least one day train that would serve the clientele going between New Orleans and the 'resort areas' as far as Mobile in the daytime; you're not going to achieve this adding coaches to a restored Sunset sleeper service to Jacksonville.
I would concur that much of this intricate political dance involves track and line upgrades to accommodate expanded freight service as a 'price' for the test service. I agree about Amtrak rapidly devolving the marginal cost of the extra train(s) on the states benefiting from the incremental service; hopefully this won't be a rerun of the Indiana experience... and Amtrak will have learned all the things that didn't work there and not try to replicate them.
Be darned if I can find much sense, even for subsidized gambling, in using a train on the Meridian Speedway to connect Dallas with... the Crescent southbound. Wouldn't the principal idea be to give better service to the East without going up to Chicago or St. Louis?
CMStPnP charlie hebdo Yes...but. I think you will find Illinois has been a leader in the Midwest with both in-state services (to Carbondale, Quincy and St.L.) as well as a participant in multi-state services such as to MKE, Grand Rapids and Detroit. With Chicago to Milwaukee the converse is also true with people having business in Milwaukee that would rather not take an all stops METRA train if METRA had the ability to cross the border on the Milwaukee line. So yes. I focused on Wisconsin because they pay 75% of the subsidy, Illinois pays 25%. Milwaukee is a lot smaller than Chicago obviously so voices are more apt to be be heard in Milwaukee City Hall and passed onto Madison vs heard in Chicago and passed onto Springfield......just my two cents. BTW, the second Chicago to Twin Cities train is planned to be 3 Siemens Coaches and 1 Siemens Cafe Car. That last item is a curiousity because I have not seen a Siemens Cafe car in the Midwestern Pool Order yet. Though I heard a rumor they were to be ordered. The MnDOT guy spilled the beans on that stating that the second Twin Cities train will be shorter than the Empire Builder and will not activate the crossing gates at some station stops as a result when it is stopped.
charlie hebdo Yes...but. I think you will find Illinois has been a leader in the Midwest with both in-state services (to Carbondale, Quincy and St.L.) as well as a participant in multi-state services such as to MKE, Grand Rapids and Detroit.
Just for clarification of your accurate post: Hiawatha revenue pays for 75 percent of the service’s cost. The rest of the cost is subsidized, with Wisconsin paying 75 percent and Illinois paying 25 percent of that amount.
Overmodin using a train on the Meridian Speedway to connect Dallas with... the Crescent southbound. Wouldn't the principal idea be to give better service to the East without going up to Chicago or St. Louis?
Most definitely!!
Bringing up "Floridian" service in a different post.
We have run this question around the tree in different forms a number of times here, over the years. If I remember correctly, few of the existing routes a Chicago-to-Florida train would take are (1) not heavily freight-dominated, or (2) still actually equipped with passenger-train-capable track (or indeed with any track!)
Presumably something 'connecting' with an Amtrak train from Dallas to Meridian would have been routed south through Meridian, and would then continue onward to some logical routing into Florida... not down into the Panhandle only to connect with the line east to JAX, or switching cars to a revised Sunset eastern extension. I doubt you'd get anyone to go to peninsular Florida by going to connect with the southbound Crescent; I don't think there is any sense in going further east to connect with one of the Silver trains, although it might be interesting to see what that would involve.
No one asked me, but the most 'logical' approach I see would be to repurpose one of the 'daily' Mobile trains to run all the way to Jacksonville, and time it to connect 'across the platform' on the west end with the City of New Orleans. Then jigger with whatever happens on the east end to get the passengers to Amtrak or Brightline or other services further onto the peninsula.
OvermodNo one asked me, but the most 'logical' approach I see would be to repurpose one of the 'daily' Mobile trains to run all the way to Jacksonville, and time it to connect 'across the platform' on the west end with the City of New Orleans.
I guess that's what I was asking about -- why isn't that part of the proposed route? I've got to believe that New Orleans to Mobile will appeal to a very limited number of riders. New Orleans to Jacksonville would seem to make more sense.
York1I guess that's what I was asking about -- why isn't that part of the proposed route? I've got to believe that New Orleans to Mobile will appeal to a very limited number of riders. New Orleans to Jacksonville would seem to make more sense.
According to the last CONO schedule I have, from late 2020) the train is timed 'Chicago-centric' with departure at a civilized 8:54pm and northbound arrival 9:15am. To make this timing, arrival at New Orleans is at 3:47pm, a ridiculous time to schedule a connection to a train to casinos at Mobile (unless it were a deadhead move with no layover allowable at or near Mobile), and departure from New Orleans is at 1:45 in the early afternoon, likewise not a time convenient for a service relying on casino traffic. Meanwhile, the comparable schedule for the Sunset train would have departure from New Orleans sometime close to 9:40am eastbound, and 9:00am westbound, so that isn't remotely something that works with 'through connection service'.
So we might need to find some way to combine one of the Illini services from Chicago down to Carbondale (with connection to St. Louis as appropriate), a train of some kind that runs from there through New Orleans on a timing that facilitates serving the casinos and so forth, and continuance of that train as an eastern restoration of New Orleans-to-Jacksonville sleeper service.
At least one difficulty I see with this is a likely wild variance in ridership of the 'new' train, combined with drawing at least some ridership away from the 'other' services.
While we have our crayons out, here is the map of the Meridian Speedway that the prospective train out of Dallas would be taking; it crosses the City of New Orleans at Jackson. One would want to coordinate any 'new' services both ways to connect reasonably well. I invite crayonistas to work out what the best timing that 'works' for Dallas (and a link to TC) and as a connection to and from the Crescent would be...
CMStPnP...Crossing the Canadian Border by car or bus in Detroit is a royal pain and very time consumming. Train could speed that crossing up and be time competitive there. ...
I've crossed the border by train at Port Huron a couple of times, and a number of times at various points in the east. I also have crossed by car at many points along the border. While the crossing sometimes takes a while by car/bus/boat, I think the longest time by car was still less than the shortest time by train.
Edit: There was one painless pair of times I crossed the border by train. Back in the early 90s when the VIA Atlantic took a shortcut thru Maine, I was in a sleeper, and slept thru both border crossings.
OvermodBe darned if I can find much sense, even for subsidized gambling, in using a train on the Meridian Speedway to connect Dallas with... the Crescent southbound. Wouldn't the principal idea be to give better service to the East without going up to Chicago or St. Louis? A
It was an older project to get Dallas folks into Casinos in Shreveport, LA. The man that was pushing it almost got a test train to run but I think the Casinos backed out at that point.
You know what I find interesting. In CP's annual report it says NS owns Meridian to Shreveport, LA now????? I thought it was just a maintence agreement with them, I never heard until I read it in CP's report that NS obtained ownership of the line and apparently KCS is a tenant now??? Or else is the CP annual report wrong?
At any rate yes the idea was to connect Dallas to the East Coast points. Though at various points acrpss various articles Amtrak interchanges Dallas to Meridian, MS and Dallas to Atlanta, GA..........so I am not really sure what the final destination is intended to be? MS or GA???
MidlandMikeI've crossed the border by train at Port Huron a couple of times, and a number of times at various points in the east. I also have crossed by car at many points along the border. While the crossing sometimes takes a while by car/bus/boat, I think the longest time by car was still less than the shortest time by train.
I've done both crossings by car. Port Huron is very fast vs Detroit's crossing. Detroit only has Ambassador Bridge and the two lane tunnel with traffic one direction in each lane. Since Semi's prefer the Bridge it slows down due to the auto parts traffic. The Tunnel it is just too many cars. I once was stuck in the middle of that damn tunnel driving 5 mph. Once your in the tunnel your really stuck as there is no passing obviously. When I lived there in the 1990's Customs on the United States side was the boat anchor as they presumed everyone using the Detroit gateway was a drug smuggler or had something else to hide. Canadian Customs really didn't care if you had a Truck Bomb, they would wave everyone through and only ask really rudimentary questions. I guess that is why US Customs was stricter and usually ticked off.
CMStPnP At any rate yes the idea was to connect Dallas to the East Coast points. Though at various points across various articles Amtrak interchanges Dallas to Meridian, MS and Dallas to Atlanta, GA..........so I am not really sure what the final destination is intended to be? MS or GA???
At any rate yes the idea was to connect Dallas to the East Coast points. Though at various points across various articles Amtrak interchanges Dallas to Meridian, MS and Dallas to Atlanta, GA..........so I am not really sure what the final destination is intended to be? MS or GA???
One more thing.....
Amtrak stated on it's list of priority that New Orleans - Mobile service is first. Once that is up and running they are going to attempt Dallas to somewhere East.
If my memory is correct, the former New Orleans to Jacksonville service before the hurricane was the biggest loss segment on Amtrak at the time.
alphasIf my memory is correct, the former New Orleans to Jacksonville service before the hurricane was the biggest loss segment on Amtrak at the time.
What will be interesting is how the same breakdown comes to be observed in a modern context for an extended day train in the nominal New Orleans-Jacksonville service, particularly when PSR allows opening up a path for it east of Mobile. By the time such a service would come into being (perhaps 'facilitated' by the train not having to lay over near Mobile) there will be many more choices of journey origin or continuation from Jacksonville...
... and Uber/Lyft might make the trip from stations down to the Panhandle south of 98 much easier than it used to be.
OvermodWhile we have our crayons out, here is the map of the Meridian Speedway that the prospective train out of Dallas would be taking; it crosses the City of New Orleans at Jackson. One would want to coordinate any 'new' services both ways to connect reasonably well. I invite crayonistas to work out what the best timing that 'works' for Dallas (and a link to TC) and as a connection to and from the Crescent would be...
Revision to the map slightly on the route. The Paper in Marshall, TX states it would use the existing Texas Eagle route (UP) from Dallas to at least Marshall, TX. So from there it would need to connect to KCS to get on the speedway. Figure that one out and you have the entire proposed route.
My guess it it takes the south leg of the Wye at Marshall, TX (instead of North Leg like Texas Eagle) and proceeds on UP to Waskom, Tx, then connects with KCS in downtown Shreveport from UP. So route would be UP Dallas to Shreveport and KCS/NS from there to Meridian, MS. Very interesting the existing Texas Eagle gets so very close to serving Shreveport, LA itself on UP.
Read in a competitor magazine that Amtrak is losing the legal battle for New Orleans to Mobile and as a consequence since NS is one of the railroads fighting New Orleans to Mobile...........the Dallas to Meridian, MS or Atlanta, GA train is probably also on the rocks.
Well that didn't take long for Amtrak to get the proverbial rolled up newspaper smack on the nose in regards to this initiative.
CMStPnPVery interesting the existing Texas Eagle gets so very close to serving Shreveport, LA itself on UP.
O-or you could use a TLM with some TLC and rebuild the L&A north from Minden through Taylor to work with tilting trains; as I recall that line at one point went north as far as Hope. The turn at Minden is right off the Speedway!
OvermodSo close, and yet so far: the service goes up at an angle via Texarkana on the ex-Missouri Pacific and never comes anywhere near Shreveport. You might figure out how to go east parallel to 20 through Shreveport, cross the bridge into Bossier and turn north onto the ex-SP, but that really only goes up to the line across south Arkansas parallel to Rt. 82, which doesn't go anywhere you couldn't go faster on the Speedway (to the south) or the MoPac angling up north to Little Rock and then up into Missouri. Theoretically you could rebuild the portion of the line going north to a connection in Hope, but I think that would be relatively 'hopeless' if actual money had to be spent to achieve it.
What are you talking about? It is almost a direct shot and only 40 miles between Marshall, TX and Shreveport, LA. There is a rail line in place between the two cities, which is the line Amtrak will likely use if it ever gets the Dallas to Meridian service off the ground. Meridian speedway is Meridian to Shreveport, LA it is not further North and it connects with the line from Marshall, TX.
So I am completely lost as to what your trying to refute here.
We're not talking about Amtrak service to Shreveport on the Meridian Speedway; that line admittedly doesn't go close to 'downtown' but the only reason a convenient Amtrak stop might be difficult is that it is bermed up many places a station would logically go. I would put the stop in Bossier, to the east of the river, rather than in any of the 'legacy' passenger locations, but that's just me. We assume that Shreveport would be a 'done deal' as a stop for any service from "Dallas" across the Speedway.
I don't think it would be all that difficult to find a way through Shreveport from the 'west' to the speedway, although as I remember there are a couple of sharp curves in any of the logical ways across the river. Not a concern, and if Mobile is supposedly a 'draw' from the Dallas area, surely the Bossier boats are even greater in context.
I thought you were referring to the existing route of the Texas Eagle, which admittedly comes 'close' to Shreveport as the crow flies. There is never going to be a train that goes from Dallas through Shreveport to anywhere within 400 miles of Chicago, not in my lifetime, and not likely afterward: the only possible exception would be if some Chicago-to-Florida thing coming down through the Midwest intersects the logical route to the Northeast. Sure as hell isn't going to be a section of anything turning to run up the Illinois Central even as a connecting section, although I spoze if the Mobile service doesn't eventuate, you could get some sort of thing cobbled together.
I will admit that I was presuming that the new service would be Dallas-Meridian rather than only 'connecting' with the Texas Eagle at Marshall or wherever. Theoretically you could start the service with a shuttle railcar or even a whole consist to the boats if you wanted to assess the originating-in-Dallas-area casino traffic by rail, and this might be fun to do as a shuttle between actual long-distance train times, with its own 'casino amenities' built into custom cars...
...but it would be awful easy to lose your butt when the novelty wore off, or anything caused downturn in patronage...
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