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Bright line information

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Posted by Overmod on Saturday, August 8, 2020 4:49 AM

BaltACD
Human vision has a latency in the frame rate that the brain can handle.

This is almost completely different from the 'backward wheel' artifact.  You'd far better ask yourself the more basic question 'why does seeing backward-turning wheels at speed annoy me?'

As I recall from psychophysics, image-formation latency in people is about 19ms.  Substantial image change faster than that results in a blur, or due to human 'image processing' the disappearance of the thing changing faster -- hence the reason you can see the brake detail behind fast-turning car wheel spokes.  

Film on the other hand is shot not only at a fixed frame rate but with a shutter speed fast enough to eliminate more unpleasant motion blur as well as give varied depth of field and a couple of other effects.  Movies are a trick, a way of fooling the human perceptive system into thinking it is seeing smooth motion, but the actual information coded into the individual frames is massively reduced, and one very significant consequence is that phase information is lost.  The actual thing captured on the film at 'wheels backward' speed is like stroboscopic vision with the pulse rate slightly slower than the advance between identical spokes -- this being indistinguishable from the same wheel turned slightly backward at much lower speed at the same lighting repetition rate.

Far more 'fun' and annoying are some of the visual effects from CCD cameras, which can have really fast effective 'shutter speed' but long image-processing time and hence low effective frame rate separate from nominal resolution.  Propellers shot with these have all sorts of weird distortions in addition to what can be wildly varying perception of rotational direction.

Meanwhile there is a perceptual 'quirk' that recognition of a processed image in the brain can 'freeze' certain images; the original determination of that 19ms. acquisition was done stroboscopically to see how long an item needed to be illuminated for a subject to 'remember' details of it... the conscious memory taking much longer to form.  When I first joined SMPTE I had the bright idea that a vastly enhanced perception of dizzying speed might be produced by combining the two effects of blur and periodic capture, by shooting most frames with corresponding average blur but interposing periodic frames with high stop-motion resolution, a bit like the research into recognizable subliminals.  This worked remarkably well... at recreating precisely the confusion in image recognition that makes people disoriented and sick watching roller coasters and the like without vestibular coupling.  It certainly worked to enhance the thrill of speed ... the thrill of helpless speed where you have no idea where you'll be pulled next.

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Posted by CMStPnP on Monday, August 10, 2020 10:00 AM

Wow! Brightline ends agreement with Virgin Trains.    That was kind of sudden.   I guess they got sick of waiting for the capital pay in from Virigin.

https://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2020/08/08-digest-brightline-ends-marketing-agreement-with-virgin-group

 

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Posted by rdamon on Monday, November 30, 2020 11:54 AM

Spent the holiday with some windshield time in Central Florida.  Drove from Orlando to Cocoa along FL-528. Grading and bridge construction was in process along the whole route. 

There is a large stockpile of concrete ties at the intersection of 528 and Industry Road.

It is visible in the Google satellite view.

 

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Wednesday, March 3, 2021 10:10 PM
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Posted by blue streak 1 on Wednesday, March 10, 2021 10:27 PM

Brightline is going to build a tunnel under state route 528 by using a box jacking method.  They expect it will only take 10 days.  Does anyone know exactly how the method works ?  In a way it sounds line the way casings are jacked under RRs and roads but on a very big steriod ?.  The number of workers seem to indicate that workers will be working at the face ? 

Brightline set to make history with box-jacking method - Railway Track and Structures (rtands.com)

EDIT: Here is a link

Jacked Structures - Box Jacking

 

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Posted by BaltACD on Wednesday, March 10, 2021 10:49 PM

blue streak 1
Brightline is going to build a tunnel under state route 528 by using a box jacking method.  They expect it will only take 10 days.  Does anyone know exactly how the method works ?  In a way it sounds line the way casings are jacked under RRs and roads but on a very big steriod ?.  The number of workers seem to indicate that workers will be working at the face ? 

Brightline set to make history with box-jacking method - Railway Track and Structures (rtands.com)

EDIT: Here is a link

Jacked Structures - Box Jacking

Considering the typical Central Florida elevations (or lack thereof) - who is going over and who is going under.

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Wednesday, March 10, 2021 11:01 PM

Bright line is going under 528

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Posted by rdamon on Thursday, March 11, 2021 5:34 AM
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Posted by BaltACD on Thursday, March 11, 2021 6:57 AM

blue streak 1
Bright line is going under 528

Which then begs the question - how much of a dip in the line of the right of way will their be and over how long of a distance?  Will the clearance plate only clear Brightline or will it be built to current Class 1 unrestricted clearance plates?

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Thursday, March 11, 2021 9:55 AM

The clearance diagram may not be the biggest issue.  Considering that most of Florida is about 10 feet or less above sea level, drainage may be a bigger problem.

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, March 11, 2021 10:37 AM

BaltACD
Which then begs the question - how much of a dip in the line of the right of way will their be and over how long of a distance?

Box jacking is inherently horizontal, although it could be started in a 'hole' or angled to a gradient.   That they are using box jacking in the first place and expect to be finished in 10 days implies that 528 at this point is on a berm of adequate height.  Obviously if the new line were to go 'over' there would be no need to 'tunnel'; they'd just build up embankments over time and just bridge the road at the end.  Looking at the aerial view you can see what a pain the necessary construction for a high-speed 'flyover' would entail...

Will the clearance plate only clear Brightline or will it be built to current Class 1 unrestricted clearance plates?

I can't imagine why freight would be operated on a HSR extension of this kind; if it were, the logical thing would be to regrade the approaches on 528 and install an actual overbridge at the crossing, not a particularly difficult piece of civil engineering even for MC's 'Highway bubbas'.  That they are essentially directional-drilling on a large rectangular scale implies to me that minimal clearance gage is in play...

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Posted by MidlandMike on Thursday, March 11, 2021 7:42 PM

Overmod
That they are essentially directional-drilling on a large rectangular scale implies to me that minimal clearance gage is in play...

The linked article says "The underpass, once constructed, will measure 31 ft high by 43 ft wide, will be the length of a football field and will accommodate two trains side by side."

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Posted by BaltACD on Thursday, March 11, 2021 10:00 PM

MidlandMike
 
Overmod
That they are essentially directional-drilling on a large rectangular scale implies to me that minimal clearance gage is in play... 

The linked article says "The underpass, once constructed, will measure 31 ft high by 43 ft wide, will be the length of a football field and will accommodate two trains side by side."

At 31 feet high it is being constructed to the current clearance plate which, I believe, requires 25 feet from top of rail to the bottom of whatever is over top of the rail.

I am wondering how far below Route 528 the jacked in structure will be?  I am GUESSING 10 or more feet below Route 528 so the bottom of the jacked in structure will be 41 feet or more below the grade of Route 528.  Wonder how far out the grade to the bottom of the structure will be extended from the structure?  With a 1% grade we are talking about 4100 feet in each direction.

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, March 11, 2021 10:29 PM

If I remember correctly we discussed the Goldenrod Road crossing a while back -- but I don't remember box-jacking being mentioned or discussed.  Same for the LIRR improvement project, where I remember seeing only bridge-raising projects.

I'd be interested to see the drainage plans for the completed structure.

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Posted by MidlandMike on Friday, March 12, 2021 9:35 PM

The linked article says the box-jacked tunnel will be built under Route 528 just west if US 1.  Looking at Google Earth, this is where the expressway is already on a fill leading to a bridge that crosses over the FEC mainline and US 1.

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Thursday, May 20, 2021 10:36 AM
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Posted by CMStPnP on Sunday, May 23, 2021 5:27 PM

MidlandMike

The linked article says the box-jacked tunnel will be built under Route 528 just west if US 1.  Looking at Google Earth, this is where the expressway is already on a fill leading to a bridge that crosses over the FEC mainline and US 1.

Video mark 3:34 elapsed time video of BOX JACKING.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yS97kwoDSHg

 

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Posted by MidlandMike on Sunday, May 23, 2021 9:53 PM

CMStPnP

 

 
MidlandMike

The linked article says the box-jacked tunnel will be built under Route 528 just west if US 1.  Looking at Google Earth, this is where the expressway is already on a fill leading to a bridge that crosses over the FEC mainline and US 1.

 

Video mark 3:34 elapsed time video of BOX JACKING.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yS97kwoDSHg

 

 

The shocking thing about the video, is that the toll roads want Brightline to pay for the loss of tolls from those passengers who choose Brightline.

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Posted by CMStPnP on Monday, May 24, 2021 5:00 AM

MidlandMike
The shocking thing about the video, is that the toll roads want Brightline to pay for the loss of tolls from those passengers who choose Brightline.

Even more surprising is the Florida Congressional Representative who are anti-Amtrak with voting records whom always told the public they are OK with rail transit as long as it is privately run.    Actually took a stance against Brightline in exchange for currying favor with wealthy residential and land owners along the route.    I see that as corruption of our Democratic system, I cannot explain it any other way.

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Posted by BaltACD on Monday, May 24, 2021 7:08 AM

CMStPnP
 
MidlandMike
The shocking thing about the video, is that the toll roads want Brightline to pay for the loss of tolls from those passengers who choose Brightline. 

Even more surprising is the Florida Congressional Representative who are anti-Amtrak with voting records whom always told the public they are OK with rail transit as long as it is privately run.    Actually took a stance against Brightline in exchange for currying favor with wealthy residential and land owners along the route.    I see that as corruption of our Democratic system, I cannot explain it any other way.

Florida Corrupt?  Who knew!

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Posted by York1 on Monday, May 24, 2021 7:42 AM

CMStPnP
Even more surprising is the Florida Congressional Representative who are anti-Amtrak with voting records whom always told the public they are OK with rail transit as long as it is privately run.    Actually took a stance against Brightline in exchange for currying favor with wealthy residential and land owners along the route.    I see that as corruption of our Democratic system,

 

It's possible this representative sided with property owners because he believed that it is wrong to take private property.  I do.

A group of millionaire and billionaire investors forcing someone to give up their land is also a corruption of the democratic system.  That wealthy group of investors who bought the billions in bonds is hoping to make a lot of money by taking that land.

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, May 24, 2021 8:46 AM

BaltACD
Florida Corrupt?

That's just Jacksonian democracy in action.

No local voters enjoy having a railroad as a neighbor, particularly a fast one.  Should it be surprising that local representatives follow that line?

Likewise, if there is free money to be   extortedobtained at the negotiating table, when the Highway authority holds the high cards... can you honestly blame them for try

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, May 24, 2021 8:51 AM

BaltACD
Florida Corrupt?

That's just Jacksonian democracy in action.

No local voters enjoy having a railroad as a neighbor, particularly a fast one.  Should it be surprising that local representatives follow that line?

Likewise, if there is free money to be   extortedobtained at the negotiating table, when the Highway authority holds the high cards... can you honestly blame them for trying to get their cake and eat it too?

Of course businessmen and capitalists are made of money, and Fortress especially so.  Make them pay, and defend your constituents -- who largely don't benefit directly from either rail or its associated development -- from the heartless pursuit of selfish gain!  Then soak 'em again with business taxes...

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Posted by CMStPnP on Monday, May 24, 2021 11:17 AM

York1
It's possible this representative sided with property owners because he believed that it is wrong to take private property.  I do. A group of millionaire and billionaire investors forcing someone to give up their land is also a corruption of the democratic system.  That wealthy group of investors who bought the billions in bonds is hoping to make a lot of money by taking that land.

Actually No, it was a group led by former CEO of American Airlines, Robert Crandall whom was against FEC running the trains over existing rails because of increased traffic and the feeling that the "local riff-raff" from downtown Miami (yes, that is a form of racism), would now have increased access to their communities and allegedly increase the crime rate and lower property values.    That was their main argument added with the argument the system would never be profitable and Florida would be forced to step in and subsidize it or left with a half constructed system.    I think if you check, Brightline hasn't used any or much of any eminent domain to keep costs low.    It's new line runs primarily on state owned land easements.

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Posted by York1 on Monday, May 24, 2021 12:01 PM

CMStPnP

Actually No, it was a group led by former CEO of American Airlines, Robert Crandall whom was against FEC running the trains over existing rails because of increased traffic and the feeling that the "local riff-raff" from downtown Miami (yes, that is a form of racism), would now have increased access to their communities and allegedly increase the crime rate and lower property values.    That was their main argument added with the argument the system would never be profitable and Florida would be forced to step in and subsidize it or left with a half constructed system.    I think if you check, Brightline hasn't used any or much of any eminent domain to keep costs low.    It's new line runs primarily on state owned land easements.

 

 
 
I'm talking about the Brightline path from MCO to Disney Springs.  Brightline wants to use 417's ROW, which would diminish tolls, use eminent domain on several properties, and bypass other Orange County sites to deliver passengers directly to Disney.
 
While I don't blame Brightline for wanting that route, I will always side with property owners.
 
If I owned property along or near the route, I would be talking to my congressman everyday wondering why I may lose my land or diminish my property's value so that Disney, and Brightline's millionaire investors, will benefit.
 
A congressman representing the people in his district is the epitome of a democratic republic.

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Posted by CMStPnP on Monday, May 24, 2021 2:02 PM

York1
I'm talking about the Brightline path from MCO to Disney Springs.  Brightline wants to use 417's ROW, which would diminish tolls, use eminent domain on several properties, and bypass other Orange County sites to deliver passengers directly to Disney.   While I don't blame Brightline for wanting that route, I will always side with property owners.   If I owned property along or near the route, I would be talking to my congressman everyday wondering why I may lose my land or diminish my property's value so that Disney, and Brightline's millionaire investors, will benefit.   A congressman representing the people in his district is the epitome of a democratic republic.

I am not sure if you had any real estate law courses or not.    However, that is part of the price of living in a Democracy.    The government can allow your property to be taken with just compensation given to you for the land......if they can argue the good of the many far outweighs the retention of the land by the one or the few.   Congress wrote that specific law of emminent domain as well.   Since most land in this country, especially around railroad lines was Federal to begin with.   Arguing the property rights argument over eminent domain is not a strong argument since yourself, your ancestors, or the chain of people before you... obtained the land from the railway or the Feds to begin with.

Diminished tolls are a red herring argument.   Which I would like to see presented in a court room because the fact is also because of the rail line being built it can be shown it is significantly diminishing auto emissions as well which results in avoidance of EPA fines and EPA remediation.    Even under electric automotive power you still have an emissions reduction or carbon footprint reduction.   If I am not mistaken some of the tolls or road taxes in the very same area go to pay for SunRail?    So it is also a circular argument to argue that Brightline's impact on tolls is impacting Florida negatively.

In the specific case you mention.     Hey I am fine with shifting the route to give better access to Universal Studios and the like BUT in all fairness, they should pay the cost difference between the new route and the old route not Brightline.     It's like a $1.4 Billion difference.    Not small potatoes and Brightline could use the same argument as your using.     It's being railroaded into accepting a higher cost right of way for the benefit of a few wealthy Corporations.

Interesting note:   Fortress Investments owns Rail America as well.

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Posted by n012944 on Monday, May 24, 2021 2:07 PM

CMStPnP

 In the specific case you mention.     Hey I am fine with shifting the route to give better access to Universal Studios and the like BUT in all fairness, they should pay the cost difference between the new route and the old route not Brightline.  

 

Why should they?  Typical foamer board.  If someone builds a house next to the tracks, then complains about the noise, they are told the tracks were there first.  When a railroad is trying to build tracks through a communtiy, (Hunters Creek in this case) the community members who object are labeled NIMBYS, and in this weird case, are told they should pick up the cost for another route.  

 

 

Hypocritical.

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Posted by CMStPnP on Monday, May 24, 2021 2:11 PM

n012944
Why should they?  Typical foamer board.  If someone builds a house next to the tracks, then complains about the noise, they are told the tracks were there first.  When a railroad is trying to build tracks through a communtiy, (Hunters Creek in this case) the community members who object are labeled NIMBYS, and in this weird case, are told they should pick up the cost for another route.       Hypocritical.

No I think it is a consistent argument.    You have a small group of people insisting that the eminent domain or negative economic impact of taking the land for the railroad ROW should be higher because they do not want to be impacted.   It is again a good of the many vs the few argument.    That and of course imposing two doglegs into the route of the line will slow speeds and impact service over the whole line.    I don't think the argument will prevail in a court room.  We'll see if it gets that far or Brightline caves in.

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Posted by York1 on Monday, May 24, 2021 2:39 PM

CMStPnP
Arguing the property rights argument over eminent domain is not a strong argument since yourself, your ancestors, or the chain of people before you... obtained the land from the railway or the Feds to begin with.

You and I will have a major disagreement with this.  Who owns federal lands?  People own the lands.  Not the government.  Property rights are owned by the people, not the government.  That's like saying a tax cut is the government giving away money.  It's our money to begin with.

It's a dangerous argument to claim that "arguing the property rights argument over eminent domain is not a strong argument since [we] ... obtained the land from the ... Feds to begin with".

"Not a strong argument"!  Property rights are enshrined in our country's Declaration along with all the other rights we cherish.  Property rights were one of the main reasons given in the Declaration for the founding of our country.

Your argument dismissing property rights over eminent domain because it was the government's land anyway ... I can't tell you how strongly I disagree with you.

 

CMStPnP
In the specific case you mention.     Hey I am fine with shifting the route to give better access to Universal Studios and the like BUT in all fairness, they should pay the cost difference between the new route and the old route not Brightline.     It's like a $1.4 Billion difference.    Not small potatoes and Brightline could use the same argument as your using.     It's being railroaded into accepting a higher cost right of way for the benefit of a few wealthy Corporations.

Brightline is not being 'railroaded' into anything.  They are the ones asking for eminent domain and for sharing the ROW with a toll road.  And Disney comes out with a private transit system from the airport to their business by taking away property from several citizens and ruining the property values of many other citizens.

If the argument is that the new railroad's Disney stop is just because it's on the way to Tampa, then there are other better routes to the south that completey bypass Disney altogether.

Brightline is a private company.  They can try to route their railroad wherever they want.  It is also the right of the citizens of Orange County to stop them or force them to make allowances.  The issue that it may cost Brightline's millionaire investors more money is irrelevant.  

Of course, Disney has nothing to do with this either, do they?  It's kind of funny that at the same time Brightline is pushing this route, Disney announces they are ending the Magical Express from MCO.

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My wife said I never listen to her.  Or something like that.

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Monday, May 24, 2021 3:31 PM

Remember Crandal owns a lot of AA stock and more fixed price options.  Good money to be had if AA stock is not hurting from Brightline.

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