My wife and I recently rode a sleeper on the Sunset Limited and adjacent to our room was a young couple (Millennials). I inquired as to why and how they decided to take the train. They said they had seen Amtrak trains but knew nothing about them. Then a relative told them about travel by train and being able to travel overnight in a bed so they decided to give it a try. And a plus was the Dining Car! They said they were loving it and would likely do it again. They wondered why they had never heard of this travel option except hearing about it from their relative.
Question: When is the last time you saw an ad for Amtrak? I've not seen one in years and I've never seen an ad for an Amtrak sleeper. Thus, I'm not sure Amtrak wants any new customers. Capacity problem?
I've been riding trains since before Amtrak. When I tell friends we took the train somewhere they look at me like I'm from Mars. Once I tell them about the train their comment is usually, "that actually sounds like a fun thing to try". And then they reply, "I've never even considered taking the train". Note: I tell them the truth that the equipment is 30+ years old and you can't be in a hurry. It's for the experience.
Maybe if more people knew there was a long-distance travel option other than an airplane or car, the future of long-distance trains might get taken off the chopping block. Or maybe this is all just wishful thinking.
RailSpikeMaybe if more people knew there was a long-distance travel option other than an airplane or car, the future of long-distance trains might get taken off the chopping block. Or maybe this is all just wishful thinking.
Trains mentioned that in NewsWire in the 5 year plans post. Amtrak says: "Millenials are not interested in Long Distance Train Travel" and that the Long Distance Line applies mostly to retirees and rail afictinado's.....and that Amtrak has to address that issue. However, Amtrak provides no real evidence to support the statement and as Trains Editors noted they identified the problem but no proposed solution to even attempt to fix the problem.
Fred Frailey also has an article in the most recent issue of Trains Magazine where he discusses what he would do.
I see Millenials each time I ride the Texas Eagle but they are not all that numerous and typically they are riding in Coach vs Sleeper and they are riding at least one overnight though not typically point to point. The last trip I had two at my dinner table and were riding from Chicago to Austin, TX.
Amtrak’s Five-Year Service Line Plans, Base (FY18) + Five Year Strategic Plan (FY2019-2023), Page 66, has select customer profile data that sheds some light on the characteristics of the long-distance train riders.
In sleeper class, which accounted for 16 percent of the long-distance travelers in FY18, 53 percent of the customers were male; average age was 61; 52 percent were retired; average income was $102,000 per year; 92 percent were traveling for non-business purposes; 61 percent were roundtrip, and average distance traveled was 991 miles.
In coach class 60 percent of customers were female; average age was 54; 38 percent were retired; average income was $67,000 per year; 92 percent were traveling for non-business reasons; 64 percent were roundtrip, and average distance traveled was 497 miles.
I have seen billboards on I-95 advertising Auto-Train. I have seen 'occasional' Amtrak ads on television in the Baltimore-Washington area. Neither is done at a level where if you didn't know about Amtrak and what it does that it would ring the bell to get you to try their services.
Class 1 carriers and Amtrak seem to subscribe to the theory that advertising is a cost with no benefits in increased revenue.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
From time to time as I travel, young people, especially those who are traveling by train for the first time, strike up conversations, generaaly to ask questions--which I usually can answer.
Johnny
NEC Profile:
55% female, average age 47; 15% retired.
Average income $123,000
28% vacation; business 32%; family and relatives 40%
71% RT.
Acela Express Profile:
45% female, average age 50; 10% retired.
Average income $170,000
17% vacation; business 61%; family and relatives 22%
76% RT.
State Supported Corridor Profile:
54% female, average age 47; 22% retired.
Average income $83,000
24% vacation; business 31%; family and relatives 45%
https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/corporate/businessplanning/Amtrak-Five-Year-Service-Plans-FY18-FY23.pdf
JPS1In 2018 Amtrak spent $93.1 million on advertising, down from $106.7 million in 2017 and $104.2 million in 2016. In 2017 Amtrak launched a multi-media campaign “Break the Travel Quo”. The program featured a series of videos lauding travel by Amtrak and poking light hearted fun at the obvious alternatives. You can sample some of the videos on YouTube. Search for “Break the Travel Quo”. Most of the Amtrak ads that I have seen have touted the NEC and/or other corridors. Probably for a good reason! It is were rail travel makes sense; it is where Amtrak can compete effectively against the alternatives. Advertising the long-distance trains that are used by less than 1 percent of intercity travelers is throwing good money after bad, and Anderson probably knows it.
I have problems with using Amtraks stats or Amtrak surveys for measuring passenger train appeal or service financial viability stats. Especially in the Long Distance market for a few specific reasons mentioned below:
1. Amtrak has no comparable stats to how many sleeping car passengers were turned away due to lack of sleepers on the LD routes. Which happens with the SuperLiners on several routes in the summer. How would the trains financials change if they could add more sleepers in the Summer to meet demand. There is the same issue with lack of coach space at peak times as well on the long distance trains. Amtrak turns away quite a bit of passengers due to lack of LD equipment during peak periods. It hits coach passengers as well.
2. Amtraks own admission that it could use a new class of service called "Experiential Class" on the Western routes. Since VIA Canada added the Prestige Class which now I believe amounts to 5 bedrooms each way on the Canadian or a revenue potential of $50,000 per train each way. The per passenger subsidy on the VIA Canadian has fallen fairly significantly.
3. Amtrak has only stripped away amenities from the LD trains vs adding them which is potentially having a negative impact on ridership though it has never been measured. Related to #2, Amtrak could make efforts to increase spend per passenger while on the train simliar to what Cruise Ships do, simply by adding amenities and/or packages but Amtrak has rarely ventured into that area.
None of that shows in the stats. Additionally, my observation just of the Hiawatha Service over time is Amtrak needs close supervision when it operates or manages it's trains as it seems without the supervision it tends to tick off a lot of it's first time and regular passengers. Also, my personal pet peeve is the number of complaints about restroom cleanliness Amtrak is getting. Even Fred Farley mentions it in the latest issue of Trains that it would not take much additional effort to have restrooms as clean as McDonald's. Have to say my last trip on the Texas Eagle was disgusting in that respect and Amtrak really needs to fix that issue if I am to remain a long distance passenger. Otherwise screw the LD passenger train, CUNARD here I come. Amazing part is CUNARD is actually cheaper than Amtrak in some cases perhaps due to having more capacity per frequency to carry passengers?.
LD trains appeal mostly to two demographics. Older retirees who are railfans, and for those who like to view deserts and mountains from a perspective they can't obtain otherwise.
The main issue in gaining new customers, is that Amtrak doesn't serve the country in totality. If one happens to live along an Amtrak route, with a destination along said route, train travel becomes a viable option. If not, people aren't going to drive some distance to catch a train.
The young people I see on Amtrak, are riding the Illinois service routes, which connect with most of the state universities. However I believe this is more a result of the dense, massive population of the Chicago metro area, and the somewhat distant 2-5 hour trips to the downstate universities. I don't believe the college commute scenario can necessarily be replicated in other states. It is though, a viable business on Amtrak Illinois trains.
Most college students I know either have a car or bum a ride from a friend. Some ride the train occasionally but only if there are no other options. Sharing the cost of a tank of gas is cheaper than an Amtrak ticket.
I think what you just described supports the current Amtrak leadership position of concentrating on corridor service rather than the LD train.
"It was June, 2017, my wife and I were returning from Washington DC to Stamford, CT. first class on Acela departing at 3:50pm. Seated behind us were the two parents of two young boys who were seated across from us. The older boy was seven and the younger boy age five were each playing their video games. The older boy looked uncomfortable so his mother came over and sat next to him. About five minutes later he says to his mother "you can go back to your seat now" so she does. About another five minutes goes by and the boy announces to his mother "You know I like the train better than the plane". Now that would make a great Amtrak commercial."
runnerdude48 Most college students I know either have a car or bum a ride from a friend. Some ride the train occasionally but only if there are no other options. Sharing the cost of a tank of gas is cheaper than an Amtrak ticket.
I think that really depends on the state.
charlie hebdorunnerdude48 Most college students I know either have a car or bum a ride from a friend. Some ride the train occasionally but only if there are no other options. Sharing the cost of a tank of gas is cheaper than an Amtrak ticket. I think that really depends on the state.
It also depends on the level of service. Most students are not going to hang around for a once a day train that departs many hours after their last class for the semester or weekend or whatever.
The Megabus agent in Austin told me that they see a substantial number of students on the weekends and over major holidays. Megabus stops just south of UT Austin. Megabus has two daily schedules to DFW as well as two to Houston and two to San Antonio.
A San Antonio based conductor on the Texas Eagle told me that Amtrak sees a jump in student riders over spring break and major holidays, although given the poor performance of the Eagle lately, I would be surprised if many students are hanging round for a train that is typically two to four hours late at Austin.
UT Austin has approximately 52,000 students. Even if Megabus, Greyhound, Amtrak, etc. sold every seat to UT grads going home for the holidays, etc., it would be a tiny fraction of those attending the university. Most of the students at UT travel by car. Well, in Texas it is more likely to be a pick-up truck.
"UT Austin has approximately 52,000 students. Even if Megabus, Greyhound, Amtrak, etc. sold every seat to UT grads going home for the holidays, etc., it would be a tiny fraction of those attending the university. Most of the students at UT travel by car. Well, in Texas it is more likely to be a pick-up truck."
Penn State has Megabus which is well used and a few local greyhound runs during the week. However, on Fridays and Sundays there are extra Student Government sponsored Greyhound express runs to the NYC, Philly, Baltimore/DC, and Pittsburgh areas. But even if there are 300 students using these extra weekend Greyhounds, that's just a drop in the bucket of the more than 46,000 students at its main campus. The rest are riding in cars when they leave town. The one exception to that is Spring Break in early March when they use the local airlines to their maximum capacity as they head south.
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Amtrak really does not advertise any longer, used to see ads on TV often. It's word of mouth and people like me who travel often especially in MO and IL. I would see all ages on LD trains, especially riding the Builder, Starlight and SW Chief, but that was a few years ago Only recent one I've been on is CONO as I now have a friend living there, take a roomette, and it is pleasant trip. But do miss the diner, not the same as what I heard it used to be, some hot entrees but no local specialties. Will be riding CZ from Chi to Glenwood Springs in a few weeks and since I have never been on that one, will be checking it out. We are on our way to Prom, taking the train part way and getting rental car in GS and driving the rest of the way to Ogden. I have a young friend who is 30 and he likes taking the train, did it often when he was at SIUE and his gf went home for summer in Joliet. He'd take business class as it gave him plenty of leg room, he is 6'3" and weighs about 250, so a big guy. He does not planes for that reason, too cramped, had to fly a couple of times on business and complained about it.
charlie hebdoI think that really depends on the state.
For more than one reason I would bet that most students going to UT-Austin fly vs taking the bus or train. It's roughly $56 each way via Air to Austin from Dallas Love Field. I drove to Austin once from Dallas and vowed I would never do it again. It is a total moonscape South of Dallas until you get fairly close to Austin. I was bored out of my wits and when you drive along a road like that 3 hours seems like 6 hours.
Also likely the commute would be reversed. Dallas probably has 6 times the college students that Austin does. Dallas area has UT-Dallas, UNT, SMU, Baylor (which is actually in Waco), numerous community colleges, etc.
Sunnylandhe is 6'3" and weighs about 250, so a big guy. He does not planes for that reason
I'm 6 foot 5 inches tall and there are about 8 good seats with almost Business Class legroom on a Southwest all coach 737. You just have to know where they are on the plane and get one. Usually if you pay $40 extra and get the boarding pass numbered under 15 you have a 85-95% chance of landing one of those seats. If you fly Southwest regularly and are that tall. They will give you conditional pre-board priveleges on your FF number.....I've been told but I have not tried it yet. If you get pre-board your usually among the first 5 to board the plane.
CMStPnP 1. Amtrak has no comparable stats to how many sleeping car passengers were turned away due to lack of sleepers on the LD routes. Which happens with the SuperLiners on several routes in the summer. How would the trains financials change if they could add more sleepers in the Summer to meet demand. There is the same issue with lack of coach space at peak times as well on the long distance trains. Amtrak turns away quite a bit of passengers due to lack of LD equipment during peak periods. It hits coach passengers as well.
Backshop CMStPnP 1. Amtrak has no comparable stats to how many sleeping car passengers were turned away due to lack of sleepers on the LD routes. Which happens with the SuperLiners on several routes in the summer. How would the trains financials change if they could add more sleepers in the Summer to meet demand. There is the same issue with lack of coach space at peak times as well on the long distance trains. Amtrak turns away quite a bit of passengers due to lack of LD equipment during peak periods. It hits coach passengers as well. Every form of transportation is short of capacity at peak times. You can't have equipment sitting around just for peak times. It still requires maintenance and still has to be paid for. If it isn't producing revenue, it's sucking revenue.
Every form of transportation is short of capacity at peak times. You can't have equipment sitting around just for peak times. It still requires maintenance and still has to be paid for. If it isn't producing revenue, it's sucking revenue.
Of course when you want to discourage use of your service - you just tell prospective user that your conveyance is at capacity and there is no room for them - no matter is the conveyance is full or not. Amtrak under Anderson seems to have become adept at running full trains with no passengers and making them very late in the process. The tactic worked well for the Class 1's leading up to the formation of Amtrak.
runnerdude48The probable reason that Amtrak doesn't advertise their long distance trains is that they know that there is virtually no market for train travel over 750 miles and certainly not overnight. Two years of increased temperatures does not indicate a trend and neither do two millennials in a sleeper on the Sunset Limited.
GERALD L MCFARLANE JR runnerdude48 The probable reason that Amtrak doesn't advertise their long distance trains is that they know that there is virtually no market for train travel over 750 miles and certainly not overnight. Two years of increased temperatures does not indicate a trend and neither do two millennials in a sleeper on the Sunset Limited. You're quite wrong actually, don't rely on any studies, just talk to Millenials themselves...a lot more of them do not own their own personal vehicle. The only reason vehicle sales are increasing for SUV's and Pickups is not because of Millenials purchasing them, but because of older age groups. Vehicle ownership is actually lowest among Millenials, and more of them ride Amtrak than you think.
runnerdude48 The probable reason that Amtrak doesn't advertise their long distance trains is that they know that there is virtually no market for train travel over 750 miles and certainly not overnight. Two years of increased temperatures does not indicate a trend and neither do two millennials in a sleeper on the Sunset Limited.
What would be the effect on market share if McDonalds stopped advertising on TV & Radio as well as took down the Golden Arches in front of their stores?
If the public doesn't know about you they won't come to you to buy your product.
Anderson doesn't want to sell the product of Amtrak!
BaltACDWhat would be the effect on market share if McDonalds stopped advertising on TV & Radio as well as took down the Golden Arches in front of their stores?
What would be the effect if Mickey D advertised but there were in fact very few locations and those that existed were only open from 10pm to 3 am? And with waits of 20-35 minutes for your order? And filthy toilets?
Amtrak LD is similar: few cities served and only once per day in each direction at inconvenient times and usually late, sometimes by many hours. That's not transportation, just nostalgia trips for the retired.
Most people don't take the train because it takes too long. Many people don't get as much vacation time as they used to and don't want to spend it on the train. If you want to go from Detroit to California, you can fly there in under 5 hours and have 2-3 extra days than if you took the train.
charlie hebdoWhat would be the effect if Mickey D advertised but there were in fact very few locations and those that existed were only open from 10pm to 3 am? And with waits of 20-35 minutes for your order? And filthy toilets?
Or that required you get there at 10:50 at night, and then you couldn't leave until 2:30 in the morning ... within about 3 minutes, and perhaps without advance notice from anyone there ... except when supply trucks were blocking the doors for hours?
Not to mention that if the employees didn't like you for any reason (or no reason) they could have the police escort you out without a refund? For your $18.85 burger that was reheated in a plastic sack?
To be honest, the filthy toilets appear to be caused fairly often by 'patron activity', just as problems with restaurant restrooms often are. The problem is that none of the on-train employees want to take the necessary turns every half hour to clean up the latest nastiness -- anyone who has ever run a public facility knows what is often required 'behind the scenes' and I suspect the usual sense of entitlement that so many contemporary Amtrak 'attendants' have keeps this from being done (or even allocated fairly) as necessary.
When you have the leader of a organization that wants to make his product as distasteful as possible - what do you expect.
Leadeship sets the tone and expectations of any company.
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