In NJ I am used to seeing the Atlantic City train run backwards from Philly to AC but now I notice Amtrak trains running backwards as well on the NEC. Is this new? Which ones do this and why?
Many rail passenger operators operate their equipment in push-pull fashion. The 'rear' car is known as a 'cab car'. That car has proper operating control for the locomotive engineer to use - all necessary control functions of the locomotive are trainlined through the train so the locomotive engineer can use them to operate the locomotive.
Such train sets don't require being turned at their destinations - the locomotive engineer just secures the controls of the unit they are operating and walks to the other control unit and configures the controls for operation of that unit.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
JPS1Is it not possible to turn off the locomotive horn when it is at the back of the train and pushing it?
Metra, and its predecessors, have operated push-pull service for many, many years, on the C&NW starting in 1960. The horn is turned off in the pushing engine or trailing cab car.
All of Metra's diesel-powered trains are push-pulls, with the locomotive leading on the outbound runs. This has the effect of keeping the locomotive away from the passengers boarding or alighting at the various downtown terminals.
New Jersey Transit operates quite a few "push-pull" trains as well. I read an interview with an NJ Transit engineer where he was asked what it was like running a train from the control car and not the locomotive...
"Uhhhh, it DOE'S take a bit of getting used to! At first, it just doesn't 'feel' right, after a while it's OK."
For a doctrinaire railfan like myself it just doesn't look right, so when I run the Jersey Transit set on the layout the locomotive's up front pulling the consist, like it's "supposed" to be!
CSSHEGEWISCH All of Metra's diesel-powered trains are push-pulls, with the locomotive leading on the outbound runs. This has the effect of keeping the locomotive away from the passengers boarding or alighting at the various downtown terminals.
Even so, carbon and other emissions were very high, as the Tribune exposed a few years ago. Perhaps in part a function of very old engines?
For railfans and others who enjoy seeing what is ahead, the view is ideal. A few years ago, Carl and I rode from Chicago to Antioch and back; on the return we saw pretty much what the engineer saw.
My first such experience came in 1970 when I rode the morning Metroliner from Washington to New York, stnading in the vestibule most of way.
Johnny
I don't know enough about how trains operate to comment.
Is there any difference in starting and stopping when pushing as opposed to pulling? Any slack between cars cause a difference? Other issues?
York1 John
charlie hebdoEven so, carbon and other emissions were very high, as the Tribune exposed a few years ago. Perhaps in part a function of very old engines?
York1Is there any difference in starting and stopping when pushing as opposed to pulling? Any slack between cars cause a difference? Other issues?
The old Metra (CNW) bilevel cars not only had a terrible "parking brake" which was incredibly loud when released and only kept the brakes on one truck, they had a lot of slack--it was quite easy to "spill the coffee" when starting if the power was either a F7 or E8, both of which were equipped with the load regulator in 'max field' continuously, so when you opened the throttle 1500 amps immediately went to work. When operating from the locomotive, one could mitigate the initial power surge by holding the independent brake on full, and then slowly releasing it.
From the cabcar there is no way to control the brakes on the locomotive except with the trainline; so when stopped, we'd keep the train brakes set while stopped at the station. Which was fine, except when you first started moving after releasing the brakes, the trainline would not be fully charged, so for a brief period you had less-effective brakes. But as the stations were at least two minutes apart, the brakes would be ok for the next station stop.
The Amtrak trains that run with cab cars are Keystone Service trains that operate between Harrisburg, Philadelphia and New York. They run push-pull on the Philadelphia-Harrisburg section. Trains serving New York change direction in Philadelphia, where 30th St. is south of the connection between the Corridor and the line to Harrisburg.
The San Jose/Oakland-Sacramento trains run push=pull as I recall.
zardoz, thanks for the info. I appreciate people like you on this forum who have experience and are willing to share it with someone like me.
York1, that is a great part of these forums--those who know are always glad to share their knowledge with other train/railroad lovers, whether we work/worked for a railroad or have always had other employment.
And, when we have erred in a post, most of us willingly accept correction.
The Keystone Service trains make sense but the Amtraks I have seen going backwards are definitely running north between PHL 30th St. and NYP. I actually dont think they can turn a train around in Philly or they would have been turning the Atlantic City Trains frontward for all these years.
The NC Piedmont trains are running pull-pull, but being converted to push-pull as additional de-motered locomotoves arrive to serve as control cabs.
matthewsaggie The NC Piedmont trains are running pull-pull, but being converted to push-pull as additional de-motered locomotoves arrive to serve as control cabs.
That is probably wise because of the many grade crossing in NC and the many crossing accidents that have occurred!
blue streak 1 matthewsaggie The NC Piedmont trains are running pull-pull, but being converted to push-pull as additional de-motered locomotoves arrive to serve as control cabs. That is probably wise because of the many grade crossing in NC and the many crossing accidents that have occurred!
zardoz charlie hebdo Even so, carbon and other emissions were very high, as the Tribune exposed a few years ago. Perhaps in part a function of very old engines? Back when the CNW part of Metra was still using the F7 and E8's, those locomotives would sit at idle while awaiting departure; they also had an auxillary Cummins (and briefly a few had Detroit) HEP engines in the rear. Those engines, even though they operated at a high RPM, were nasty, smelly, and oily. So between the low-revving prime mover and the awful HEP motors, it's not too surprising that the air quality was terrible.
charlie hebdo Even so, carbon and other emissions were very high, as the Tribune exposed a few years ago. Perhaps in part a function of very old engines?
Back when the CNW part of Metra was still using the F7 and E8's, those locomotives would sit at idle while awaiting departure; they also had an auxillary Cummins (and briefly a few had Detroit) HEP engines in the rear. Those engines, even though they operated at a high RPM, were nasty, smelly, and oily. So between the low-revving prime mover and the awful HEP motors, it's not too surprising that the air quality was terrible.
As a fan/bystander, I still liked those Es and Fs better than anything since. Heck, I even liked the old Geeps and the rare SD7.
The Trib article was just a few years ago and referred to the current engines - F40PHs.
The cabcars I operated had the Engineer's cubbyhole on the top deck, so most collisions would be below me, although not so if I hit a truck; luckily I never did.
charlie hebdoAs a fan/bystander, I still liked those Es and Fs better than anything since. Heck, I even liked the old Geeps and the rare SD7.
The E8&9's were my favorite suburban locomotives: they rode nice and were good performers. (Just don't ask me about those Crandallized units!)
charlie hebdoThe Trib article was just a few years ago and referred to the current engines - F40PHs.
================================================
F40 cab view of Lake Street Interlocking in Chicago:https://www.flickr.com/photos/jim53171/8028258253/
F7 cab view: https://www.flickr.com/photos/jim53171/8028221619/
Deleted due to computer hicup.
One thing I failed to mention on the Piedmonts is that the seating has been converted to half facing in each direction in each coach. Obviously you can guess which seats fill up first, though personally I don't mind riding backwards.
zardoz charlie hebdo As a fan/bystander, I still liked those Es and Fs better than anything since. Heck, I even liked the old Geeps and the rare SD7. On the plus side, with those locomotives one could actually repair malfunctions; on the minus side, they needed those repairs quite frequently. Kind of like the old days when you could see the ground when you looked in the engine compartment, or you could force the carburetor to stay open with a screwdriver. With these new cars, I don't even bother to carry tools--what is fixable roadside? The E8&9's were my favorite suburban locomotives: they rode nice and were good performers. (Just don't ask me about those Crandallized units!) charlie hebdo The Trib article was just a few years ago and referred to the current engines - F40PHs. Now that does surprise me! ================================================ F40 cab view of Lake Street Interlocking in Chicago:https://www.flickr.com/photos/jim53171/8028258253/ F7 cab view: https://www.flickr.com/photos/jim53171/8028221619/
charlie hebdo As a fan/bystander, I still liked those Es and Fs better than anything since. Heck, I even liked the old Geeps and the rare SD7.
On the plus side, with those locomotives one could actually repair malfunctions; on the minus side, they needed those repairs quite frequently. Kind of like the old days when you could see the ground when you looked in the engine compartment, or you could force the carburetor to stay open with a screwdriver. With these new cars, I don't even bother to carry tools--what is fixable roadside?
charlie hebdo The Trib article was just a few years ago and referred to the current engines - F40PHs.
Now that does surprise me!
The Trib ran it also, but it has a paywall.
https://news.medill.northwestern.edu/chicago/union-station-faces-air-pollution-issue-epa-says/
Feb. 2016:
assengers on trains at Chicago’s Union Station are being exposed to high levels of air pollution on Metra and Amtrak trains, according to the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency.
Over a two-week period in July 2015, EPA researchers used portable aerosol monitors to measure microscopic particles in the air around the train platforms and streets surrounding the station, said John Mooney, an air quality expert at the EPA in Chicago.
The particles, known as PM2.5, or particulate matter about 2.5 micrometers in diameter, are composed of liquid droplets and acids, metals, or other pollutants in the environment. PM2.5 are a byproduct of diesel-burning engines used in older trains such as the ones at Union Station., 225 S. Canal St.
“We expected average levels to be lower. They were higher than we like to see,” Mooney said. [As high as 299 ppm at rush hour.]
At Union Station - considering the 'relatively' short METRA and Amtrak trains, aren't the locomotives generally idling underneath the platform cover with less than ideal natural veltilation?
Part of the pollution problem (exhaust fumes in trains) was a result of the failure of the owner of the former Chicago US Postal Service Building to maintain the exhaust ducts and blowers that removed the fumes from the track area of Union Station. And the Tier 1 locomotives having to run at approximately 900 RPM to maintain HEP service to the train put out a lot of exhaust. After the pollution issue arose, Metra started putting trains that were not doing a quick flip, onto shore power. This requires additional manpower to plug and unplug the power cables. And there is a specific protocol for the transition. Now when the train arrives in the station and while passengers are in the process of getting off, the HEP goes off and then about two minutes later, the Shore Power comes on. The locomotive is put on idle speed. And similarly, when departing, the conductor closes the doors, the Shore power is cut, and the passengers sit in the dark (with the emergency lights on) for about a minute, then you can hear the locomotive rev up, the train starts to move and in about thirty seconds the HEP comes on, Lights and HVAC blowers come on. We are on our way. Also, when we pull out of Union Station, the exhaust that is spewed out of the locomotives that have been idling is confined to the train area under the air-rights building and into the passenger car air intakes. Not much of a problem for the Ogilvie (former C&NW) and LaSalle St Stations which have open areas over the tracks and the exhaust can lift up and away.
Also Balt, the Metra BNSF trains have gotten about as long as they can and still fit on the eight station tracks (even 2-16) allocated to Metra . The Naperville express trains run eleven cars long and most trains have six or more cars. The Naperville trains make three stops inbound (start at Aurora, Rt 59, & Naperville) and then run non-stop to Chicago carrying about 1500-1600 passengers.
GO Transit in Toronto is Push-Pull (Photos 1, 2, & 3)......and AMT (now EXO) in Montreal is also Push-Pull (Photos 4, 5, & 6)
The Talgos in the Pacific Northwest are also push-pulls, using demotored F40PH's as control cabs.
LIRR ran push-pulls in the 1980's, with GP38-2's or MP15AC's for motive power and demotored (but not de-engined) FA's and F's to provide HEP and control cabs.
Electroliner 1935Metra BNSF trains have gotten about as long as they can and still fit on the eight station tracks (even 2-16) allocated to Metra . The Naperville express trains run eleven cars long and most trains have six or more cars. The Naperville trains make three stops inbound (start at Aurora, Rt 59, & Naperville) and then run non-stop to Chicago carrying about 1500-1600 passengers.
Back in the day before Amtrak and cutbacks in service, I thought some PRR and CB&Q trains were longer than 11 cars? Did they have to break the train in half?
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