aegrotatioWhat the heck happened to the "all-weather mode of transportation?" When did it all fall apart?
When there were no long 'boots on the ground' as the railroads put their MofW funds into high production Tie & Surfacing units, Rail replacement units etc. No longer are ther 8-10 man section gangs stationed every 8-10 miles along the right of way, no longer is there a signal maintainer stationed at every control point with power operated switches. When the track workers and signal personnel had to use the highway system to access their points of responsibility, rather than living at those locations.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
What the heck happened to the "all-weather mode of transportation?" When did it all fall apart?
The NYP - New Rochelle over the Hell Gate bridge may be more complicated than at first look.
1. At one time there were 4 tracks over the bridge. Now Amtrak operates on the original 2 western most tracks. CSX operates over the next track. The location of the eastern most 4th track now is blank as the track was removed.
1. Does Amtrak own all the ROW? CSX operates over the bridge and who owns that ROW and track? What about the abandoned 4th track ROW?
2. Now it has been announced today that MNRR has a MOU to start engineering swork for rail service from New Rochelle to NYP over the Hell Gate route.
3. What will that entail for the present track arrangement?
a. Almost surely the 4th track will e restored.
b. Will all 4 tracks revert to Amtrak with CSX using the 4th track? Or will CSX just use the 4th track and Amtrak / MNRR use just tracks 1 - 3
c. Will the 4 new stations for MNRR in the Bronx require MNRR to use the 2 outside tracks confusing the way CSX iwill use the tracks?
d. The way this all finally is decided may require alll 4 tracks to be electrified?
m
Differences of opinion are healthy and make for lively repartee. What is not healthy are those who cite facts and when called to produce them or they are proven wrong they run away , create a diversion, post a disclaimer and or complain to the moderator.
I have no complaints about differences of opinion. I am a big boy, don't know about others.
David Lassen Can you guys possibly have a difference of opinion without a.) taking it personally and b.) complaining to us when it gets personal and snarky? If not, I'll just ban the offending parties now and simplify the moderation process.
Can you guys possibly have a difference of opinion without a.) taking it personally and b.) complaining to us when it gets personal and snarky? If not, I'll just ban the offending parties now and simplify the moderation process.
OK. I'll just stay out of threads involving Joe 243129. But I didn't make any complaint.
BaltACDIf Amtrak has not reduced MofW 'boots on the ground' since they assumed basic ownership and maintenance of the NEC that might be the cause of their substansial red ink in their financial performance
Amtrak's financial situation is just another example of poor management, their snow emergency program or lack thereof is a product of their ineptitude.
243129 charlie hebdo deleted RE: 2019 Winter service cancellations Reply bycharliehebdo 243129 You state: "OK Amtrak owns the short stretch to New Rochelle. Is that of any real importance?" What about the "stretch" from New Haven to the Massachusetts state line? In my first post I stated: (Amtrak operates and maintains the MA section). ???????????
charlie hebdo deleted
deleted
Reply bycharliehebdo
243129 You state: "OK Amtrak owns the short stretch to New Rochelle. Is that of any real importance?" What about the "stretch" from New Haven to the Massachusetts state line?
In my first post I stated: (Amtrak operates and maintains the MA section).
???????????
If Amtrak has not reduced MofW 'boots on the ground' since they assumed basic ownership and maintenance of the NEC that might be the cause of their substansial red ink in their financial performance.
BaltACD did not work for Amtrak. Perhaps his observations did apply at CSX. I worked for Amtrak (NEC) and my personal experience there along with input from still employed former co-workers is more credible than the source you claim to have accessed but will not or cannot provide. Your statement;
charlie hebdo Since you dispute what I and he have said, you provide the numbers.
charlie hebdoBut everyone on here knows your method of making claims without any facts to back it up.
You speak for everyone? The above is an unsubstantiated allegation which I take exception to.
243129I was there and experienced it and have first hand information from my former co-workers so I say to you produce the "documented numbers" that you "stand on" versus today's numbers.
You are the one making an absurd staement about the number of workers. BaltAC has already indicated why the track cannot be cleared as easily now as back 55 years ago. He was working for CSX and predecessors for 50+ years and knows about this also. Since you dispute what I and he have said, you provide the numbers. But everyone on here knows your method of making claims without any facts to back it up. Everyone at Amtrak ignored your letters because they have access to your record and know there is no good reason to give you another hearing. They gave you one as a courtesy but your arrogance compelled you to walk out.
charlie hebdo 243129 "By 1976 when Amtrak took ownership of all the NEC except from NYC to BOS (Amtrak operates and maintains the MA section)," Your inaccuracy(highlighted in green) is what led me to post the accurate facts. OK Amtrak owns the short stretch to New Rochelle. Is that of any real importance? I stand on documented numbers of workers vs your recollections of 55 years. If you think there are as many workers available now as 30, 40 or 50 years ago to clear the track of snow, dream on.
243129 "By 1976 when Amtrak took ownership of all the NEC except from NYC to BOS (Amtrak operates and maintains the MA section)," Your inaccuracy(highlighted in green) is what led me to post the accurate facts.
OK Amtrak owns the short stretch to New Rochelle. Is that of any real importance?
I stand on documented numbers of workers vs your recollections of 55 years. If you think there are as many workers available now as 30, 40 or 50 years ago to clear the track of snow, dream on.
Up to this point I have ignored your snarky attitude but you have continued with it so I shall point out where you do not know what you are talking about.
You snarkily admonish me to "Try reading accurately, sir" when in fact you posted inaccurately that "By 1976 when Amtrak took ownership of all the NEC except from NYC to BOS (Amtrak operates and maintains the MA section),"
You are wrong as my answer below confirms.
"FYI Amtrak does own and operate the territory from NYP to New Rochelle NY. Metro North operates and controls from New Rochelle to New Haven CT which is jointly owned by the States of New York and Connecticut within their respective borders. Amtrak owns from New Haven to the Massachusetts state line and from there to Boston it is owned by the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority but is operated, maintained and dispatched by Amtrak."
You state: "I stand on documented numbers of workers vs your recollections of 55 years. If you think there are as many workers available now as 30, 40 or 50 years ago to clear the track of snow, dream on."
I was there and experienced it and have first hand information from my former co-workers so I say to you produce the "documented numbers" that you "stand on" versus today's numbers.
You state: "OK Amtrak owns the short stretch to New Rochelle. Is that of any real importance?"
What about the "stretch" from New Haven to the Massachusetts state line?
243129"By 1976 when Amtrak took ownership of all the NEC except from NYC to BOS (Amtrak operates and maintains the MA section)," Your inaccuracy(highlighted in green) is what led me to post the accurate facts.
charlie hebdo Exactly as I said above in red. Try reading accurately, sir.
I did read it accurately and I responded to inform you of the entire 'situation' from NYC to BOS.
Here is what you posted: "By 1976 when Amtrak took ownership of all the NEC except from NYC to BOS (Amtrak operates and maintains the MA section),"
Your inaccuracy(highlighted in green) is what led me to post the accurate facts.
charlie hebdoAnd what on earth do you mean by "real time knowledge does not matter here"?
Because of the following.
charlie hebdoAnecdotal impressions are not a reliable source of information. I looked at some old annual reports that gave numbers of employees to get some sense of the reductions in force. If your pals in the trenches think there are as many workers now as 30-50 years ago, then perhaps they need to be examined and retire.
I hired on the railroad 56 years ago so I would not consider my observation and statement "anecdotal". Early on I stated that I speak of that which I know which is the NEC and through my experience and the information of my former co-workers I consider my observation accurate.
Amtrak is having problems but is operating as well MNRR is as well. That enables Amtrak to operate but behind schedule.
SERVICE ADVISORY: Due to severe weather-related problems all Regional Trains should expect up to a 30-minute delay when operating through New Haven (NHV).
243129 charlie hebdo BaltACD is correct. 50-60 years ago, the railroads were a lot more labor intensive and thus had the workforce to clear the ROW of snow, including the laborious task of keeping switchpoints open and working. So when flights were cancelled from winter snowstorms, you could take the train. From Chicago east, the Pennsy was the better choice in winter because of less exposure to lake effect snow. By 1976 when Amtrak took ownership of all the NEC except from NYC to BOS (Amtrak operates and maintains the MA section), the size of the labor force on PC had declined from earlier levels. Real time knowledge does not matter here? I spoke to folks who are still 'in the trenches' here on the NEC. Where did you acquire your facts? Oh and FYI Amtrak does own and operate the territory from NYP to New Rochelle NY. Metro North operates and controls from New Rochelle to New Haven CT which is jointly owned by the States of New York and Connecticut within their respective borders. Amtrak owns from New Haven to the Massachusetts state line and from there to Boston it is owned by the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority but is operated, maintained and dispatched by Amtrak.
charlie hebdo BaltACD is correct. 50-60 years ago, the railroads were a lot more labor intensive and thus had the workforce to clear the ROW of snow, including the laborious task of keeping switchpoints open and working. So when flights were cancelled from winter snowstorms, you could take the train. From Chicago east, the Pennsy was the better choice in winter because of less exposure to lake effect snow. By 1976 when Amtrak took ownership of all the NEC except from NYC to BOS (Amtrak operates and maintains the MA section), the size of the labor force on PC had declined from earlier levels.
BaltACD is correct. 50-60 years ago, the railroads were a lot more labor intensive and thus had the workforce to clear the ROW of snow, including the laborious task of keeping switchpoints open and working. So when flights were cancelled from winter snowstorms, you could take the train. From Chicago east, the Pennsy was the better choice in winter because of less exposure to lake effect snow. By 1976 when Amtrak took ownership of all the NEC except from NYC to BOS (Amtrak operates and maintains the MA section), the size of the labor force on PC had declined from earlier levels.
Real time knowledge does not matter here? I spoke to folks who are still 'in the trenches' here on the NEC. Where did you acquire your facts?
Oh and FYI Amtrak does own and operate the territory from NYP to New Rochelle NY. Metro North operates and controls from New Rochelle to New Haven CT which is jointly owned by the States of New York and Connecticut within their respective borders. Amtrak owns from New Haven to the Massachusetts state line and from there to Boston it is owned by the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority but is operated, maintained and dispatched by Amtrak.
Exactly as I said above in red. Try reading accurately, sir.
And what on earth do you mean by "real time knowledge does not matter here"?
Anecdotal impressions are not a reliable source of information. I looked at some old annual reports that gave numbers of employees to get some sense of the reductions in force. If your pals in the trenches think there are as many workers now as 30-50 years ago, then perhaps they need to be examined and retire.
Up here we rely (used to) on weather reports, anticipate coming storms and have personnel in place.
How close to their areas of responsibility do Amtrak's men in the trenches live? Can they walk to their headquarters and fulfill their duties over their entire area of responsibility during snow events?
Snow response is boots on the ground, brooms and shovels in hand at the points where they are needed. Without living, in sufficient numbers, where they are needed they won't be able to get there with other means of surface transportation during major winter storm events.
Technology doesn't defeat Winter Storms on the railroad....the only thing that holds the storms at bay is manpower and a lot of it.
I left Amtrak five years ago and upon inquiring with co-workers still in the employ there has been no reduction in staff. MOW and the signal department have actually increased their numbers since 2014 due to 'projects' for the State of Connecticut.
I prefer to assign the onus for these cancellations to Amtrak because of their ineptitude.
243129 BaltACD 243129 This does not happen now and again I ask why? The numbers of people that were there then, don't exist today. Where did you obtain that data?
BaltACD 243129 This does not happen now and again I ask why? The numbers of people that were there then, don't exist today.
243129 This does not happen now and again I ask why?
The numbers of people that were there then, don't exist today.
Where did you obtain that data?
From a 51 year career of ever decreasing MofW employees as every company tries to decrease their Operating Ratio - even Amtrak. When I hired out a Roadmaster would be responsible for about 20 miles of track and have 15 to 20 men to maintain that track. Every interlocking tower had a Signal Maintainer and a assistant to keep it operational.
Now Roadmasters have 100 or more miles of territory that may have one or more track and 4 to 5 men to cover it. Signal Maintainers generally have 4 Control Point interlockings for their territory as well as the automatic crossing protection installations and defect detectors within that territory to keep working. There is no surplus of man power to shovel out and sweep non-operating switches and keep every thing else working in the absence of fluid highway transportation.
Amtrak staffing may be different but the pattern is the same.
243129This does not happen now and again I ask why?
BaltACD 243129 On the Northeast Corridor (NEC) when airline flights were cancelled due to weather conditions the railroad was the go to form of transportation. What happened? Amtrak has, they claim, state of the art equipment and signalling all the better to serve the traveling public with yet they virtually shut down at the forecast of inclement weather. The 500 mile and under market, primarily the NEC, should belong to Amtrak over the airlines in good weather and definitely in bad weather. So now we have airline personnel running Amtrak. What does that tell you? Would you hire a stonemason to give you a haircut? What that tells me is the MofW personnel required to keep control points operating on a continuing basis no longer live within walking distance of the facilities they need to keep in operation. VW a few years ago had a advertisement about how the Snow Plow Driver to the the Snow Plow. The reality of todays' railroading is that MofW personnel are probably one tenth or less in head count than they were 50-60 years ago and they have territories the may be a hundred or more miles in length - territories that they cannot get to unless highway traffic is moving fluidly. What was common 50-60 years ago is very uncommon today.
243129 On the Northeast Corridor (NEC) when airline flights were cancelled due to weather conditions the railroad was the go to form of transportation. What happened? Amtrak has, they claim, state of the art equipment and signalling all the better to serve the traveling public with yet they virtually shut down at the forecast of inclement weather. The 500 mile and under market, primarily the NEC, should belong to Amtrak over the airlines in good weather and definitely in bad weather. So now we have airline personnel running Amtrak. What does that tell you? Would you hire a stonemason to give you a haircut?
The 500 mile and under market, primarily the NEC, should belong to Amtrak over the airlines in good weather and definitely in bad weather.
So now we have airline personnel running Amtrak. What does that tell you?
Would you hire a stonemason to give you a haircut?
What that tells me is the MofW personnel required to keep control points operating on a continuing basis no longer live within walking distance of the facilities they need to keep in operation.
VW a few years ago had a advertisement about how the Snow Plow Driver to the the Snow Plow. The reality of todays' railroading is that MofW personnel are probably one tenth or less in head count than they were 50-60 years ago and they have territories the may be a hundred or more miles in length - territories that they cannot get to unless highway traffic is moving fluidly. What was common 50-60 years ago is very uncommon today.
I speak only of where I am qualified which is the NEC.
Before Amtrak and it's 'cadre' of inexperienced supervisors took over operations, when a major storm was forecast appropriate measures were taken to have essential personnel in position. This was commonly referred to as 'snow duty'. All departments were on alert and in place. This does not happen now and again I ask why?
243129On the Northeast Corridor (NEC) when airline flights were cancelled due to weather conditions the railroad was the go to form of transportation. What happened? Amtrak has, they claim, state of the art equipment and signalling all the better to serve the traveling public with yet they virtually shut down at the forecast of inclement weather. The 500 mile and under market, primarily the NEC, should belong to Amtrak over the airlines in good weather and definitely in bad weather. So now we have airline personnel running Amtrak. What does that tell you? Would you hire a stonemason to give you a haircut?
On the Northeast Corridor (NEC) when airline flights were cancelled due to weather conditions the railroad was the go to form of transportation. What happened? Amtrak has, they claim, state of the art equipment and signalling all the better to serve the traveling public with yet they virtually shut down at the forecast of inclement weather.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.