PJS1 ... Under the right conditsion investors could fill a hole that is not covered by Amtrak and/or the states because they don't have the political support and/or the money.
Under the right conditsion investors could fill a hole that is not covered by Amtrak and/or the states because they don't have the political support and/or the money.
Fortress failed to interest investors in their first two bond offerings on the Brightline extension. Now they are trying to sell private activity bonds thru a DOT allocation. However, because of their apparent lack of political engagement, they now have political opposition to even these bonds.
http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2018/05/25-battle-continues-over-brightline-bonds
PJS1Under the right conditsion investors could fill a hole that is not covered by Amtrak and/or the states because they don't have the political support and/or the money.
The Brightline model would include owning land around where you site the stations so the RE development can cover the capital costs.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
MidlandMike PJS1 Under the right conditsion investors could fill a hole that is not covered by Amtrak and/or the states because they don't have the political support and/or the money. Fortress failed to interest investors in their first two bond offerings on the Brightline extension. Now they are trying to sell private activity bonds thru a DOT allocation. However, because of their apparent lack of political engagement, they now have political opposition to even these bonds. http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2018/05/25-battle-continues-over-brightline-bonds
The trains are running. Apparently they are getting a good reception!
Rio Grande Valley, CFI,CFII
oltmannd The Brightline model would include owning land around where you site the stations so the RE development can cover the capital costs.
If it works what is wrong with the model? It may not be perfect, but I am cheering it on!
Amtrak has not been able to get it right after 47 years. It is time to try something different. Give the alternative providers, i.e. Brightline, Texas Central, etc. a decent shot at it. Let them take a risk! Give it a go! They may fail, but we surely will not know if they don’t try! These are attitudes the government wonks in charge of Amtrak will never understand.
Markets drive better outcomes than government managed commercial operations. If there is no sustainable market for passenger rail, irrespective of how it is leveraged, it should go the way of the stagecoach and Pony Express.
The NEC is close to covering its fully allocated costs. If Amtrak or any potential operator were free to focus only on the NEC, and it could negotiate realistic labor contracts, it could be a self-sustaining market-based entity. It might even be able to earn a profit.
MidlandMike Fortress failed to interest investors in their first two bond offerings on the Brightline extension. Now they are trying to sell private activity bonds thru a DOT allocation. However, because of their apparent lack of political engagement, they now have political opposition to even these bonds.
PJS1If it works what is wrong with the model? It may not be perfect, but I am cheering it on!
Completely agree!
oltmannd PJS1 If it works what is wrong with the model? It may not be perfect, but I am cheering it on! Completely agree!
Just as soon as they get the start-up kinks out of the Miami to West Palm Beach run, I am flying to Miami to ride Brightline.
I remember arriving at the old FEC station in Miami in 1957. I had ridden the East Coast Champion from Washington to Miami. I was an 18 year old Marine on my way to the Marine Corps Air Station at Opa Locka, which is just north of Miami.
I am looking forward to seeing the new railway station.
PJS1 MidlandMike PJS1 Under the right conditsion investors could fill a hole that is not covered by Amtrak and/or the states because they don't have the political support and/or the money. Fortress failed to interest investors in their first two bond offerings on the Brightline extension. Now they are trying to sell private activity bonds thru a DOT allocation. However, because of their apparent lack of political engagement, they now have political opposition to even these bonds. http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2018/05/25-battle-continues-over-brightline-bonds The trains are running. Apparently they are getting a good reception!
Presently Brightline is a commuter line running between its three real estate developements. Are they making any money on it yet? The extension to Orlando Airport is less certain. After two failed junk bond offerings, and now the problematic tax exempt bond sale, the project seems on life support.
The Texas HSR is looking for financing from a Japan consortium, which always sems to indicate some involvement with their government.
I don't really care if a functioning national passenger rail network was government, private, or a hybrid. Nevertheless, based on history, I have no illusion that we will likely see a private rail passenger sucsess story anytime soon.
Gee the millions of people over the years that have riden LD trains (including me) don't think of them as obsolete. That is an opinion of yours that does not reflect reality.
Brightline is not a whole lot different than the street railway and rapid transit lines over a century ago that were often funded in part by developers to bring potential buyers to their new housing development. Assuming that the line to Orlando gets built, I wonder how long the real estate developers will tolerate the operating losses.
CSSHEGEWISCHBrightline is not a whole lot different than the street railway and rapid transit lines over a century ago that were often funded in part by developers to bring potential buyers to their new housing development. Assuming that the line to Orlando gets built, I wonder how long the real estate developers will tolerate the operating losses.
...which is how we wound up with public transit in many cases...
The original estimates showed that Brightline could cover their operating costs plus capital for the equipment, I believe. I don't think that's a pipe dream - Acela does pretty well in that regard.
The big question I've had is can the RE development cover the construction capital costs? $2B is a lot of money.
It just never quits.
I've read threads here for years about the subsidies Amtrak gets and how they need to become self sufficient. Why? No other form of transportation is.
If they passed a law tomorrow that the highways and air travel needed to be self sufficient or shut down, they'd be gone. This ought to be pretty obvious with highways with the creative financing and weird partnering that wind up charging tolls for roadways on public right-of-ways and already funded by supposed transportation funds. Airlines don't pay for all the infrastructure necessary to build, maintain, and access airports. They also utilize a number of government services for weather and upper wind information among other things.
I don't really feel like investing the time here to prove how much Amtrak alternatives cost, for me it's easy enough to see how much general fund money gets dumped into highways each year by picking up a newspaper, and how much the next "tweeking" for the airport is going to cost.
Without getting too deep into political issues, I can say there are plenty of things the government spends money on I don't agree with, and to me its like they have a large warehouse full of people stuffing hundred dollar bills into shredding machines 24/7. Spending money on supporting not only the rail travel we have now but improveing it by whatever means it takes doesn't bother me a bit. What gets spent now isn't much more than a rounding error for the things shoved down our throat that are completely worthless.
Atchee It just never quits. I've read threads here for years about the subsidies Amtrak gets and how they need to become self sufficient. Why? No other form of transportation is. If they passed a law tomorrow that the highways and air travel needed to be self sufficient or shut down, they'd be gone. This ought to be pretty obvious with highways with the creative financing and weird partnering that wind up charging tolls for roadways on public right-of-ways and already funded by supposed transportation funds. Airlines don't pay for all the infrastructure necessary to build, maintain, and access airports. They also utilize a number of government services for weather and upper wind information among other things. I don't really feel like investing the time here to prove how much Amtrak alternatives cost, for me it's easy enough to see how much general fund money gets dumped into highways each year by picking up a newspaper, and how much the next "tweeking" for the airport is going to cost. Without getting too deep into political issues, I can say there are plenty of things the government spends money on I don't agree with, and to me its like they have a large warehouse full of people stuffing hundred dollar bills into shredding machines 24/7. Spending money on supporting not only the rail travel we have now but improveing it by whatever means it takes doesn't bother me a bit. What gets spent now isn't much more than a rounding error for the things shoved down our throat that are completely worthless.
You are completely missing the point here. It's not about the subsidy at all or whether the subsidy it out of line with other modes.
It's about what Amtrak does with the subsidy and how well they serve the markets they run through.
They are running the same LD trains and schedules they ran in 1971 - and many of them were throw-backs to the 1950s when the market still had a sizeable number of business travel.
Has nothing in the US changed in over 45 years? So, why hasn't Amtrak changed with it?
There is a lot Amtrak can do with what they have to become a "better Amtrak" and remove a lot of the political heat they take (some of if deservedly)
Amtrak needs advocates, not appolgists. ...and it's good to see Trains Nation leading the charge, for a change.
oltmannd Atchee It just never quits. I've read threads here for years about the subsidies Amtrak gets and how they need to become self sufficient. Why? No other form of transportation is. If they passed a law tomorrow that the highways and air travel needed to be self sufficient or shut down, they'd be gone. This ought to be pretty obvious with highways with the creative financing and weird partnering that wind up charging tolls for roadways on public right-of-ways and already funded by supposed transportation funds. Airlines don't pay for all the infrastructure necessary to build, maintain, and access airports. They also utilize a number of government services for weather and upper wind information among other things. I don't really feel like investing the time here to prove how much Amtrak alternatives cost, for me it's easy enough to see how much general fund money gets dumped into highways each year by picking up a newspaper, and how much the next "tweeking" for the airport is going to cost. Without getting too deep into political issues, I can say there are plenty of things the government spends money on I don't agree with, and to me its like they have a large warehouse full of people stuffing hundred dollar bills into shredding machines 24/7. Spending money on supporting not only the rail travel we have now but improveing it by whatever means it takes doesn't bother me a bit. What gets spent now isn't much more than a rounding error for the things shoved down our throat that are completely worthless. You are completely missing the point here. It's not about the subsidy at all or whether the subsidy it out of line with other modes. It's about what Amtrak does with the subsidy and how well they serve the markets they run through. They are running the same LD trains and schedules they ran in 1971 - and many of them were throw-backs to the 1950s when the market still had a sizeable number of business travel. Has nothing in the US changed in over 45 years? So, why hasn't Amtrak changed with it? There is a lot Amtrak can do with what they have to become a "better Amtrak" and remove a lot of the political heat they take (some of if deservedly) Amtrak needs advocates, not appolgists. ...and it's good to see Trains Nation leading the charge, for a change.
As you once (or twice) so wisely said about Amtrak's philosophy, "We do it this way (routes, schedule, equipment, services) because we've always done it this way."
There is always resistance to change, internal institutional change and external (with the public). At least now, internal change is occuring to try to move Amtrak out of its 1950s mindset where it has been stuck, especially long distance services.
Some folks may object, but many more outside the NEC might see, for the first time, that the train can be a good choice for transportation.
http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2018/06/05-in-letter-amtrak-ceo-says-national-network-needs-careful-review
Some Anderson quotes that fit right in here. I sounds like he looked around and asked "What exactly are we trying to accomplish here?"
Quasi government employees, i.e. Amtrak, don't have any real competition in most of the areas where they operate. And therefore they don't have any compelling reasons to change. Don't rock the boat. Just keep on keeping on until the generious retirement benefits kick in.
oltmannd http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2018/06/05-in-letter-amtrak-ceo-says-national-network-needs-careful-review Some Anderson quotes that fit right in here. I sounds like he looked around and asked "What exactly are we trying to accomplish here?"
Sounds like Anderson and you are one and the same.
charlie hebdoSounds like Anderson and you are one and the same.
He writes better...
“Some parts of Amtrak’s business have operated in the same manner for 47 years, and the world is changing around us,” Anderson said, noting that passengers today have different expectations and travel options. “For Amtrak to respond to these changes and remain relevant, we need to carefully review how we allocate our resources, deploy our assets, and positions our products.”
PJS1Quasi government employees, i.e. Amtrak, don't have any real competition in most of the areas where they operate. And therefore they don't have any compelling reasons to change. Don't rock the boat. Just keep on keeping on until the generious retirement benefits kick in.
To be fair, Amtrak has been beaten into this shape by decades of fighting over subsidy and micromanagment.
It's rare when they have a leader who tries to rise above the "beat-down". They seem to have one now. I can only hope that Wick's focus on getting Amtrak internally functional will mesh well with Anderson's focus on market relevency.
oltmannd To be fair, Amtrak has been beaten into this shape by decades of fighting over subsidy and micromanagment. It's rare when they have a leader who tries to rise above the "beat-down". They seem to have one now. I can only hope that Wick's focus on getting Amtrak internally functional will mesh well with Anderson's focus on market relevency.
You are correct to conclude that the system's has played a heavy role in damning down innovation. It is the nature of the government beast, i.e. 535 supervisors plus the President and Vice President.
As long as Amtrak is a prisoner of Congress, management will be beaten down. The way out is to privatize it. And restructure it so that it can compete on a level platform.
Does anybody remember that Amtrak was established because private operation didn't work??
CSSHEGEWISCHDoes anybody remember that Amtrak was established because private operation didn't work??
Those that discount the past are bound to repeat it. There are none so blind as those that will not see.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
CSSHEGEWISCH Does anybody remember that Amtrak was established because private operation didn't work??
That was more than 45 years ago. The country has changed. Actually, although I am reluctant to point to other countries, privatization is working in Japan and France on some lines.
If Amtrak were privatized, the long distance trains probably would be toast. So too would some of the corridors that don't attract sufficient traffic. But maybe not.
If the system were privatized, mangement would have the authority to negotiate realistic labor contracts. And that could change the economics dramatically.
So, here is the question that I never get a satisfactor answer to. The government has not taken over failed airlines or intercity bus companies. So, why should it be in the passenger rail business. If it cannot be sustained in the competitive market place, it should be allowed to die.
The creation of Amtrak was more about sloppy sentimental politics than rational decision making.
PJS1 CSSHEGEWISCH Does anybody remember that Amtrak was established because private operation didn't work?? That was more than 45 years ago. The country has changed. Actually, although I am reluctant to point to other countries, privatization is working in Japan and France on some lines. If Amtrak were privatized, the long distance trains probably would be toast. So too would some of the corridors that don't attract sufficient traffic. But maybe not. If the system were privatized, mangement would have the authority to negotiate realistic labor contracts. And that could change the economics dramatically. So, here is the question that I never get a satisfactor answer to. The government has not taken over failed airlines or intercity bus companies. So, why should it be in the passenger rail business. If it cannot be sustained in the competitive market place, it should be allowed to die. The creation of Amtrak was more about sloppy sentimental politics than rational decision making.
I didn't know you were an expert in Amtrak's, or any railroad's labor contracts. Please tell us what's unrealistic. And are the unrealistic parts only unrealistic because unionized railroaders have held onto what other workers have had taken from them?
I'm reminded of a sentence in Doug Riddell's book, "From the Cab - Stories from a Locomotive Engineer" when he was working for Amtrak. "The gargantuan concessions are unions made are now termed paltry."
Jeff
jeffhergertI didn't know you were an expert in Amtrak's, or any railroad's labor contracts. Please tell us what's unrealistic. And are the unrealistic parts only unrealistic because unionized railroaders have held onto what other workers have had taken from them?
Some people won't be happy until everyone else is making minimum wage. End of story.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
zugmann jeffhergert I didn't know you were an expert in Amtrak's, or any railroad's labor contracts. Please tell us what's unrealistic. And are the unrealistic parts only unrealistic because unionized railroaders have held onto what other workers have had taken from them? Some people won't be happy until everyone else is making minimum wage. End of story.
jeffhergert I didn't know you were an expert in Amtrak's, or any railroad's labor contracts. Please tell us what's unrealistic. And are the unrealistic parts only unrealistic because unionized railroaders have held onto what other workers have had taken from them?
Everybody 'but them' as they are superior.
PJS1If the system were privatized, mangement would have the authority to negotiate realistic labor contracts. And that could change the economics dramatically.
I am as anxious to see Amtrak reformed (brought closer to the 21st century) as anyone. That said, 1. you seem to be pushing privatization as though it were the only solution. The reasons for private railroads failing to run a passenger system 47 years ago remain, but likely magnified. 2. Your references to foreign rails privatization are sketchy and misleading. 3. What makes you think privatizing would lead to dramatic reductions in labor costs through renegotiating contracts? Are the wages of UP (or BNSF, et al.) and Amtrak engineers wildly different? I realize it is almost impossible to find out since the effective pay numbers seem to be top secret, but it seems unlikely that there would be a large disparity either now or in the future.
jeffhergert I didn't know you were an expert in Amtrak's, or any railroad's labor contracts.
I find it always interesting how easy it is to forget the people that don't have smart phones or can't/don't use internet. I think we have to wait at least one more generation.
And than there is the law requiring to make food service cost effective but without eliminating jobs.Regards, Volker
VOLKER LANDWEHR I find it always interesting how easy it is to forget the people that don't have smart phones or can't/don't use internet. I think we have to wait at least one more generation. And than there is the law requiring to make food service cost effective but without eliminating jobs. Regards, Volker
And than there is the law requiring to make food service cost effective but without eliminating jobs. Regards, Volker
If a person doesn't have access to the internet, i.e. computer, smart phone, etc., they can call Amtrak at 1-800-USA-Rail. Or maybe they can get one of the grandkids to help them. And in most places they can go to the public library to use a computer or even get help using one, although it would not be a good idea to use a library computer to book a reservation and pay for it with a credit card.
Texas has deregulated its electricity market. It was opened to competition for the customers of the investor owned electric utilities, which serve about 80+ percent of the customers in Texas. Practically everyone that I knew howled that it would not work. They were wrong. By most accounts it is a success.
Interestingly, although they could have joined the party, the public power companies - usually owned by the cities, and the co-ops - usually owned by their members, refused to allow competition. One size fits all!
If there is one thing that sends a cold chill up and down the spine of governments, it is the idea that they might have to compete for customers. The only group that may be worse, at least in Texas, are the homeowner associations.
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