I have just recently become a railfan over the last couple of years and have always wondered why some passenger trains have two locomotives. Now I see the the train involved in the Washington state derailment had a locomotive on the rear. Why is that? Was it pushing? Was it there for an easy turnaround at their destination? Additional speed? Any input will be appreciated. Thanks.
A lot of the short-haul trains out of Chicago, especially to Milwaukee and Detroit, have a similar arrangement. It facilitates a quicker turnaround at the other end of the run. Locomotives are usually only used when a cab car is not available.
Locomotves on both ends will be found on most, if not all, of the trains that operate at 110 m.p.h. Apparently one unit and a cab car can't make it work. I was under the impression that the Milwaukee trains were using Cabbages at one end.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
The leading locomotive was an SC44 Charger, which have been in service for only about a month. They are doubled up with the locomotives that they are set to replace in order to break them in and recover if any issues arise.
Cascades are normally operated with a cab car and only one locomotive.
Here is a photo of a typical Cascade Train: http://media.oregonlive.com/commuting/photo/130626-mt-bachelor---eugene-or-5jpg-cc6c4dfa7ba980c3.jpg
I think it is possible that the second locomotive is kind of a protection in case the relatively new Siemens SC44 failes.
The trains had one P42 before.Regards, Volker
Edit: NorthWest was faster
No turntables anymore.
Some commuter rails have a car on the end with driver control for reversing the run.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
richg1998 No turntables anymore. Some commuter rails have a car on the end with driver control for reversing the run. Rich
Most diesel-powered suburban operations are push-pulls. It's a lot cheaper than having to turn the locomotive and move it to the other end of the consist.
Thanks to all for the replies. So let me get this right. If a cab car is in use, the locomotive is pushing it but the engineer is operating the train from the cab car?
When I rode the wolverine from Jackson mi to Chicago and return a few months ago there only the engine pulling the train. No engine or cab car on the Rear. When boarding in Chicago we walked past the engine which had pulled the train into the depot. The rest of the train was seperate by about one car length with a different engine at the other end to pull us out.
Still in training.
LabWhen I rode the wolverine from Jackson mi to Chicago and return a few months ago there only the engine pulling the train. No engine or cab car on the Rear. When boarding in Chicago we walked past the engine which had pulled the train into the depot. The rest of the train was seperate by about one car length with a different engine at the other end to pull us out.
Suspect Chicago is a service point for the Michigan service and leaving a engine in Chicago may be the normal service routine. Inbound with a locomotive for servicing and outbound with freshly serviced power.
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Tdub I have just recently become a railfan over the last couple of years and have always wondered why some passenger trains have two locomotives. Now I see the the train involved in the Washington state derailment had a locomotive on the rear. Why is that? Was it pushing? Was it there for an easy turnaround at their destination? Additional speed? Any input will be appreciated. Thanks.
The rear locomotive was idling. The lead locomotive was doing all of the work. The rear unit would be the lead unit on the return trip.
ROAR
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BaltACD Lab When I rode the wolverine from Jackson mi to Chicago and return a few months ago there only the engine pulling the train. No engine or cab car on the Rear. When boarding in Chicago we walked past the engine which had pulled the train into the depot. The rest of the train was seperate by about one car length with a different engine at the other end to pull us out. Suspect Chicago is a service point for the Michigan service and leaving a engine in Chicago may be the normal service routine. Inbound with a locomotive for servicing and outbound with freshly serviced power.
Lab When I rode the wolverine from Jackson mi to Chicago and return a few months ago there only the engine pulling the train. No engine or cab car on the Rear. When boarding in Chicago we walked past the engine which had pulled the train into the depot. The rest of the train was seperate by about one car length with a different engine at the other end to pull us out.
In the past the Wolverine had 2 engines 1 on each end. Later they ran an engine on one end and a cab car on the other, pulling in one direction, pulling in the other. Now they swap engines at both ends of the run, but do not turn the cars.
Lab BaltACD Lab When I rode the wolverine from Jackson mi to Chicago and return a few months ago there only the engine pulling the train. No engine or cab car on the Rear. When boarding in Chicago we walked past the engine which had pulled the train into the depot. The rest of the train was seperate by about one car length with a different engine at the other end to pull us out. Suspect Chicago is a service point for the Michigan service and leaving a engine in Chicago may be the normal service routine. Inbound with a locomotive for servicing and outbound with freshly serviced power. In the past the Wolverine had 2 engines 1 on each end. Later they ran an engine on one end and a cab car on the other, pulling in one direction, pulling in the other. Now they swap engines at both ends of the run, but do not turn the cars.
I wonder if the fact that the Wolverine corridor has some 110 mph running, if they prefer to have an engine at the front.
TdubThanks to all for the replies. So let me get this right. If a cab car is in use, the locomotive is pushing it but the engineer is operating the train from the cab car?
Correct.
The Cascades F59PHIs are ailing as the bare minimum of maintenance has been done in the last couple years. 467 is out with wreck damage after the summer derailment at Bridge 114, 466 is out with minor damage after hitting a tree, 468 and 469 are in service, 470 was in service but I haven't seen it in about a month, 465 was out of service for months but now is back. P42s have been filling the gaps.
MidlandMike I wonder if the fact that the Wolverine corridor has some 110 mph running, if they prefer to have an engine at the front.
I would assume that they would at least use a cabbage "car". A second engine would be useful as opposed to dead weight that would help get the trains up to 110MPH.
I rode the Cascades a couple of years ago. The train was not turned in Portland or Seattle, which I suspect is the reason for having a locomotive at both ends of the train.
Rio Grande Valley, CFI,CFII
NorthWest The Cascades F59PHIs are ailing as the bare minimum of maintenance has been done in the last couple years. 467 is out with wreck damage after the summer derailment at Bridge 114, 466 is out with minor damage after hitting a tree, 468 and 469 are in service, 470 was in service but I haven't seen it in about a month, 465 was out of service for months but now is back. P42s have been filling the gaps.
Makes sense, does anyone know, is this a full replacement of the fleet? the F59s could, presumably go through the same upgrade the Amtrak California units went through if the desire was to keep them.
It's a full replacement, 8 (now seven for a while) SC44s for 6 F59PHIs. I'll be sad to see them go, but they've let them become pretty beaten down.
(Though 465 came back with retouched paint a couple months ago, so...?)
MidlandMikeI wonder if the fact that the Wolverine corridor has some 110 mph running, if they prefer to have an engine at the front.
It was my understanding that the P42's while able to run at 100 mph took to long to accelerate to get up to 110 so they were using two to have the HP to accelerate guickly to 110. The Siemans chargers are expected to do it solo. So they may go back to a Cabbage on one end with the Siemans on the other. Amtrak uses cab cars (former PRR Budd built metroliner cars) on the Keystones (Harrisburg PA) trains and in California on the SanDiego-LA-Santa Barbara route. Grade Crossing accidents are better survived in a locomotive or Cabbage than in a cab car. On my last trip on a San Diego-LA train with a cab car (Alstrom Surfliner) leading had the front of the car roped off, and I requested the engineer whether I could forward to look out the front and she told me NO so I stayed behind the rope. LA's Metrolink has had issues with their Hundai-Rotem cab cars. In February 2015, a Metrolink commuter train collided with a utility truck on a grade crossing in Oxnard, Calif. The pilot assembly detached from the cab car it derailed. The incident killed the engineer and injured more than 30 passengers. Not sure what statistics are for Metra's cab cars but I don't remember many crew fatalities in vehicle-train collisions.
Electroliner 1935 MidlandMike I wonder if the fact that the Wolverine corridor has some 110 mph running, if they prefer to have an engine at the front. It was my understanding that the P42's while able to run at 100 mph took to long to accelerate to get up to 110 so they were using two to have the HP to accelerate guickly to 110. The Siemans chargers are expected to do it solo. So they may go back to a Cabbage on one end with the Siemans on the other. Amtrak uses cab cars (former PRR Budd built metroliner cars) on the Keystones (Harrisburg PA) trains and in California on the SanDiego-LA-Santa Barbara route. Grade Crossing accidents are better survived in a locomotive or Cabbage than in a cab car. On my last trip on a San Diego-LA train with a cab car (Alstrom Surfliner) leading had the front of the car roped off, and I requested the engineer whether I could forward to look out the front and she told me NO so I stayed behind the rope. LA's Metrolink has had issues with their Hundai-Rotem cab cars. In February 2015, a Metrolink commuter train collided with a utility truck on a grade crossing in Oxnard, Calif. The pilot assembly detached from the cab car it derailed. The incident killed the engineer and injured more than 30 passengers. Not sure what statistics are for Metra's cab cars but I don't remember many crew fatalities in vehicle-train collisions.
In my original post I was responding to some one who said that the Wolverines were runniig with one engine at the front and no other engine or cabbage.
NorthWest It's a full replacement, 8 (now seven for a while) SC44s for 6 F59PHIs. I'll be sad to see them go, but they've let them become pretty beaten down. (Though 465 came back with retouched paint a couple months ago, so...?)
The follow on question then is if someone else will be picking them up. Metrolink? given there slow implementation of the F125. They are prime candidates for repower I would think.
YoHo1975They are prime candidates for repower I would think.
Is there an "ECO-like" Tier 4 repower package that could fit in even a kludged F59 carbody? I sincerely doubt the old Tier 2 repower will fly as replacement for Tier 4 final units, even if California government tries to cut itself a break; would there be some way to get the Tier 3+ setup in there -- and is there much point in using expensively-modified 3150hp locomotives to do the job much more powerful ones were expected to do?
My guess would be Metra, but as all the Amtrak California, Surfliner-painted and Metrolink F59s are coming into the market in (at least for the first two) better shape, they might be parts sources pending scrapping. I hope at least one gets preserved as the locomotives that built the Cascades franchise, but we will see. A bunch of the worst former GO F59s didn't do particularly well in the after market.
Overmod YoHo1975 They are prime candidates for repower I would think. Is there an "ECO-like" Tier 4 repower package that could fit in even a kludged F59 carbody? I sincerely doubt the old Tier 2 repower will fly as replacement for Tier 4 final units, even if California government tries to cut itself a break; would there be some way to get the Tier 3+ setup in there -- and is there much point in using expensively-modified 3150hp locomotives to do the job much more powerful ones were expected to do?
YoHo1975 They are prime candidates for repower I would think.
I didn't think it needed to be Tier 4. Why would it be any different from the other repowers? Amtrak California already has repowered F59s, so it's a known quantity. Of course California may prefer the entire fleet to be Tier 4. Coaster and Metrolink use the model. ACE and CalTrain have older models as do Coaster and Metrolink. With the issues Metrolink is having with the F125, There may be interest on the west coast. If not, Commuter ops in Utah and New Mexico along with many others to the east could see value in rebuilt units. As others have said, I will miss them and their brown and green paint scheme.
YoHo1975I didn't think it needed to be Tier 4. Why would it be any different from the other repowers? Amtrak California already has repowered F59s, so it's a known quantity.
EPA distinguishes between freshly manufactured (new or rebuilt with less 25% worth of used parts), refurbished (25-50% worth of new parts), and remanufactured. There are too many additional requirements to name here.
Depending on the grade of rebuilt the emission limits are different.
Since 2015 freshly manufactured and refurbished line-haul locomotive must be Tier 4 compliant.
For remanufactured line-haul locomotive all depends on year of original manufacture. A remanufactured F59PHI needs to be Tier 1+ compliant.
So all depends on the scope of the rebuilding program. But quite likely it will fall into the refurbished category needing Tier 4 compliance.Regards, Volker
Edit: Definition of remanufactured deleted and posted in my first post on the next side
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