Still in training.
Norm48327Volker, I respectfully disagree. Mud Chicken works for one of the most respected survey firms in the US and I believe his qualifactions are abobe reproach.
Norm, what problems do you have. I haven't criticized mudchicken, at least it wasn't my intention.
I answered to petitnj's post who had problems as I understood with mudchicken's post on the page before. The degree of curve definition uses a 100' chord and mudchicken used a 62' chord instead but not to define the degree but to show the ordinate h. With given radius and degree of curvature you can use whatever chord length you like you just get different ordinates.
To show this context I linked the Wiki circular segment website.
If it was understood as criticism I apologize. It is a foreign language and I know what I want to say.
On the other hand I don't automatically believe a statement just because it is from an expert. If I had done so I wouldn't have survived in my occupation as civil engineer and structural design manager.Regards, Volker
Edit: BTW someone who passes out in this way like mudchicken (quote) Some of the other so-called "experts" on spirals on this forum apparently do not live in the real world or are chronic liars looking for attention, should be able to take criticism
Volker,
I respectfully disagree. Mud Chicken works for one of the most respected survey firms in the US and I believe his qualifactions are abobe reproach.
MC has done his homework well and is trustworthy. I have done land title in the past but have not had toresearch things to the drgree he is required to.
I am a bit awed by his ability to research things of yestearyear and dertermine railroads right of way.
Mud Chicken is a specalist in that regard and I take his word as gospel.
Norm
VOLKER LANDWEHR Euclid I don't see any reasons why the data should be lost. I cannot imagine a reason why the cameras cannot be made robust enough to survive any crash. As Norm already told, the NTSB reported that the cameras were damaged. When I look at the SC44's front damage it looks like it plowed through the earth. Here a photo from the link blue streak provided: http://www.kiro7.com/news/photos-massive-locomotive-moved-after-train-derailment/666679669# Regards, Volker
Euclid I don't see any reasons why the data should be lost. I cannot imagine a reason why the cameras cannot be made robust enough to survive any crash.
As Norm already told, the NTSB reported that the cameras were damaged. When I look at the SC44's front damage it looks like it plowed through the earth. Here a photo from the link blue streak provided: http://www.kiro7.com/news/photos-massive-locomotive-moved-after-train-derailment/666679669#
Regards, Volker
Yes I understand what the NTSB said and what Norm said. I am sure the cameras are capable of withstanding the damage inflicted on the locomotive, and I expect that the camera data is automatically saved to safe storage sites as it is recorded by the cameras. Therefore, I do not understand the NTSB's comments that seem to imply that recovering data from damaged cameras is not a sure thing.
RDG467 How might the talgo design with a conventional locomotive affect the L/V?
How might the talgo design with a conventional locomotive affect the L/V?
As asked, it does not. And cannot. That is affected only by the curve radius that generates the ratio.
Also, there's a difference between the CG of the Siemens unit and the Talgo cars. How large of a factor might that have been?
petitnjhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degree_of_curvature is there another definition?
Is this in regard to mudchicken's post. His degree of curvature definition isn't different. His ordinate of 8'' is as follows: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_segment
h = ordinate; R = Radius; c = chord.Regards, Volker
Cameras are (or should be) expendable - however, the data they generate should be stored in a hardened data storage location in real time, the same as the existing event recorders.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
If a car or a bus was going 79 mph (and there are some reports that this train was going faster) missed a curve, and was as spectacularly smashed up as the train the percent of fatalities is typically much higher - often 100%. So how did some 80 people endure this accident and all but 3 survived? Obviously 3 deaths are not acceptable, but still amazing.
If you want to read how things can go wrong, the Fitzgerald and McCain navy disasters are relevant. I read both the initial 80 page report and the final 175 page one (numbers are approximate). As a former destroyer sailor it all is inconceivable. 7-10 sailor had be totally not doing their jobs in each accident. Yet it happened, not once but twice.
This speaks to the cognitive ability of our specie to remain alert and aware of what we are doing - and for long periods of time. Obviously the schedule train control system about to be installed is essential. Attention to human fatigue and other such issues may also be in order.
Why does the media and some folks here refer to that bypass as a "high speed" line? 79 MPH speed limit does not qualify as high speed.
EuclidI don't see any reasons why the data should be lost. I cannot imagine a reason why the cameras cannot be made robust enough to survive any crash.
How might the talgo design with a conventional locomotive affect the L/V? I'm thinking that there is a certain amount of lateral horizontal motion inherent in the knuckle coupler system, but Zero lateral motion (rotational only) in the talgo set. This would make it 'stiffer' than a normal Amtrak consist and less forgiving in a curve overspeed situation.
Remember, the MM&A locomotives at Lac Megantic successfully negotiated a 10 mph turnout in the yard while traveling over 60 mph. It was the third or fourth tank car which derailed, perhaps from damage to the switch from the forces applied by the locos and cars involved.
BaltACD Norm48327 Euclid Is it even conceivable that the NTSB has not recovered both video cameras from the locomotive and has viewed the video recordings? If the engineer and trainee conductor were not too severely injured, is it conceivable that the NTSB has not talked to them about what happened? I believe it was said earlier that the video cameras were damaged and were sent to a lab to determine if the data could be recovered. If it can be recovered it will be of help in the investigation; if not it's a whole nuther kettle of fish. If the data is not recoverable in what, for the locomotive, was a 'relatively' mild crash without any real heavy impact with imovable objects. I would have to ask, what good are they. Who designed their location on the Charger that would make them vulnerable to being destroyed by such a 'relatively' mild incident. No doubt that the cameras themselves could be easily destroyed, however, the data output of those cameras should be stored in a manner similar to the data recorders that track throttle, brake and all the other aspects of locomotive operation.
Norm48327 Euclid Is it even conceivable that the NTSB has not recovered both video cameras from the locomotive and has viewed the video recordings? If the engineer and trainee conductor were not too severely injured, is it conceivable that the NTSB has not talked to them about what happened? I believe it was said earlier that the video cameras were damaged and were sent to a lab to determine if the data could be recovered. If it can be recovered it will be of help in the investigation; if not it's a whole nuther kettle of fish.
Euclid Is it even conceivable that the NTSB has not recovered both video cameras from the locomotive and has viewed the video recordings? If the engineer and trainee conductor were not too severely injured, is it conceivable that the NTSB has not talked to them about what happened?
Is it even conceivable that the NTSB has not recovered both video cameras from the locomotive and has viewed the video recordings? If the engineer and trainee conductor were not too severely injured, is it conceivable that the NTSB has not talked to them about what happened?
I believe it was said earlier that the video cameras were damaged and were sent to a lab to determine if the data could be recovered. If it can be recovered it will be of help in the investigation; if not it's a whole nuther kettle of fish.
If the data is not recoverable in what, for the locomotive, was a 'relatively' mild crash without any real heavy impact with imovable objects. I would have to ask, what good are they. Who designed their location on the Charger that would make them vulnerable to being destroyed by such a 'relatively' mild incident.
No doubt that the cameras themselves could be easily destroyed, however, the data output of those cameras should be stored in a manner similar to the data recorders that track throttle, brake and all the other aspects of locomotive operation.
I don't see any reasons why the data should be lost. I cannot imagine a reason why the cameras cannot be made robust enough to survive any crash. They are small objects, so it is not cost-prohibitive to make them robust enough to withstand the impact or crushing forces. And can't the data be backed up in real time in other drives on the train or even off the train in remote backup storage?
Railroaders worry about inward cameras catching something that is embarrasing, irresponsible, or incrimidating. Might Amtrak have the same sort of worries?
Pictures of moving loco to McCord.
http://www.kiro7.com/news/photos-massive-locomotive-moved-after-train-derailment/666679669
Thanks, Ed.
Gramp Can someone comment on whether the harm to passengers and crew might have been reduced had conventional railcars been involved rather than the Talgo equipment?
Can someone comment on whether the harm to passengers and crew might have been reduced had conventional railcars been involved rather than the Talgo equipment?
Yes.
Comment: No.
The people who accepted the design of the Talgo equipment realized that there could not be any sacrifice in safety in using this design. Knowing this, and that they take full responsibility for any failure in the matter, the design must be at least as safe as conventional equipment. If it were not, that would signify a failure in carrying out their responsibilities.
Ed
Meaning no disrespect to those who experienced or are connected to the horror of the derailment. Can someone comment on whether the harm to passengers and crew might have been reduced had conventional railcars been involved rather than the Talgo equipment?
CMStPnP I'm not an engineer by any means but it is a mystery to me why you would have a 30 mph curve in the middle of a high speed line.
I'm not an engineer by any means but it is a mystery to me why you would have a 30 mph curve in the middle of a high speed line.
This location is NOT in the middle of a high speed line. It is about one mile from a junction with the BNSF two main track line between Seattle and Portland.
If I were designing that junction the diverging route of the main track switch would be no more than 30 MPH because the next mile or so is posted for 30 MPH.
Could WSDOT have straightened out the two curves to get a safe speed in the 50-60 MPH, or even better, range? Of course, but bring more money. They obviously made the decision it was not worth the many million dollar cost.
Mac
I have a question; some posts say that the man at the controls was a conductor-in training. Was he not a conductor who was in training for engineer?
Johnny
Jeff, was the man who directed that the number be removed from the mp the man, who had been an MOW man and had been told to do something with respect to a certain mp--and when he was told that he had not done the job at the right place went back out and moved the mp?
Overmod Electroliner 1935 Isn't this similar to the distant signal for a home signal where the indication instructs the engineer what to expect at the home signal and aproach it at the speed indicated, much as an approach medium signal tells the engineer to approach the home signal at medium speed and to be guided by the home signal. Just as when on the highway the speed zone ahead sign tells the driver that he is approaching a speed zone and to bring the vehicle's speed to conform to the indicated speed. I don't think so; the slant-board signs previously discussed perform the 'warning' function, but they are not 'required' in GCOR. Perhaps the best way to think of the 'speed restriction' signs are to compare them to the weight-restriction signs on smaller road bridges. They are posted 'far enough ahead' of the restriction to give fair warning that there is a 'hard' requirement to traverse it, but there is no requirement for signs further up the road that say 'restricted bridge ahead - trucks use alternate route' (although of course it would be wise to provide them) Here, "in advance of" the restriction does not mean by more than the distance seen at the Lakewood curve; it should most emphatically not be understood as 'far enough in advance to allow running speed reduction from prior speed limit'. It is merely a marker that a restriction will closely follow.
Electroliner 1935 Isn't this similar to the distant signal for a home signal where the indication instructs the engineer what to expect at the home signal and aproach it at the speed indicated, much as an approach medium signal tells the engineer to approach the home signal at medium speed and to be guided by the home signal. Just as when on the highway the speed zone ahead sign tells the driver that he is approaching a speed zone and to bring the vehicle's speed to conform to the indicated speed.
I don't think so; the slant-board signs previously discussed perform the 'warning' function, but they are not 'required' in GCOR.
Perhaps the best way to think of the 'speed restriction' signs are to compare them to the weight-restriction signs on smaller road bridges. They are posted 'far enough ahead' of the restriction to give fair warning that there is a 'hard' requirement to traverse it, but there is no requirement for signs further up the road that say 'restricted bridge ahead - trucks use alternate route' (although of course it would be wise to provide them)
Here, "in advance of" the restriction does not mean by more than the distance seen at the Lakewood curve; it should most emphatically not be understood as 'far enough in advance to allow running speed reduction from prior speed limit'. It is merely a marker that a restriction will closely follow.
The slant boards would be the GCOR required sign. The sign that the BNSF does use at the point where the restriction begins is not a GCOR requirement. I found some old info that showed the BN using the second sign, except where old GN boards were still in use.
UP does not use a second sign post at the beginning of the restriction. Detouring over a couple of other GCOR users, they also only had one sign in advance of the restriction. Sorry for the confusion on my part, I figured all GCOR users did the same. In any case, all permanent speed restrictions are in the time table.
Earlier this year, they put a new permanent speed restriction on a bridge. They placed the speed sign on a convenient mile post, which placed the sign about 160 feet out of system standards. I pointed that out to my conductor one trip who said we should notify the dispatcher on the theory (which he explained to the dispatcher) that we are held to exact standards, so should the railroad. The dispatcher agreed and passed it on. A couple of days later I saw they fixed the problem. They pulled the numbers of the mile post. A few months later the numbers reappeared, but the speed sign is still technically out of place.
Jeff
EuclidIs it even conceivable that the NTSB has not recovered both video cameras from the locomotive and has viewed the video recordings? If the engineer and trainee conductor were not too severely injured, is it conceivable that the NTSB has not talked to them about what happened?
Patience grasshopper, patience.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
CMStPnPI'm not an engineer by any means but it is a mystery to me why you would have a 30 mph curve in the middle of a high speed line. I could see it close into one of the terminals or if confined by space in someway but the aerial photos here show they had plenty of space to redesign this part of the line. They spent $180 million.........maybe they should have spent a little more. Then again also a mystery to me why CP maintains a yard limit from the West end of the Milwaukee Amtrak Station almost all the way to North Milwaukee cutoff. I could see that restricted speed back in the hey day of Muskego yard but now the yard is largely dormant. Would seem to me they could safely raise the speed limit over that 5 to 7 miles of track and get the Empire Builder in and out of town a lot faster as well as their own freight trains.
Then again also a mystery to me why CP maintains a yard limit from the West end of the Milwaukee Amtrak Station almost all the way to North Milwaukee cutoff. I could see that restricted speed back in the hey day of Muskego yard but now the yard is largely dormant. Would seem to me they could safely raise the speed limit over that 5 to 7 miles of track and get the Empire Builder in and out of town a lot faster as well as their own freight trains.
I suspect if the bridges and approaches had to be re-engineered the total cost of the line would have become $200-220M.
Like anything else in this world money detirmines what you can do.
I'm not an engineer by any means but it is a mystery to me why you would have a 30 mph curve in the middle of a high speed line. I could see it close into one of the terminals or if confined by space in someway but the aerial photos here show they had plenty of space to redesign this part of the line. They spent $180 million.........maybe they should have spent a little more.
VOLKER LANDWEHRWhat I don't understand is why didn't they change the alignment to accommodate larger curve radii? When the numbers I read are correct they invested more than $180 mio. into this project. Two new bridges and a re-aligned would have helped a lot.
To do that would be much more expensive... Politicians and taxpayers are nortoiously CHEEP.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
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