243129Fear is to be overcome and that can only be done/observed in a real time situation.
Of course. All those professions and companies that use simulations must all be doing it wrong. Glad we got that straight.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
zugmann 243129 You are quite bothersome. Come back when you grow up. In the meantime you will be ignored. You keep saying that, but you still pay attention to me. I think you like me . PS. I never intend to grow up. Like they say: growing old is mandatory, but growing up is optional!
243129 You are quite bothersome. Come back when you grow up. In the meantime you will be ignored.
You keep saying that, but you still pay attention to me. I think you like me .
PS. I never intend to grow up. Like they say: growing old is mandatory, but growing up is optional!
Around and around we go...
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Simulators are used in aviation (and probably railroading) to make the response to critical situations automatic, so that pilots respond with instinctive correction to problems rather than panic.
Fear isn't helpful when reacting to problems. Fear inhibits neccesary actions. Simulator training can make these actions instinctive.
Human psychology hasn't been dismissed by the aviation industry, and it has played a key role in reducing fatal crashes. I don't understand why you insist that the railroad industry do so.
That is just wrong. You train this kind of situation in a simulator as long as necessary so that you know what to do in the real time situation, as others already said, instinctively. Fear never ever can be allowed to take over. And those situation you wouldn't like to encounter on the road and can't be train there, have to be trained in a simulator, but not the toy kind but a full motion type I posted.
We have a saying in Germany: Fear is a bad advisor.
243129My merits as a locomotive engineer will not help? Would you enlist the help of a proctologist for having your teeth cleaned?
It will only of limited use. Being able to run a locomotive doesn't mean to be able to judge people. But Zugmann already said this.
I wouldn't go. But I never would hire a civil engineer like me alone. Luckily in a large corporation assistance by Human Resource people was mandatory. And even then there were more misses thanI like to admit. One should know one's limits.Regards, Volker
I believe that simulators, human wisdom and expertise of the engineer job, and technical human evaluation and testing could all work to find the pluses and minuses of a job applicant’s character traits as they relate to the requirements of an engineer job. But here is my question: What exactly are those traits?
In all of this discussion, I don’t recall seeing this point come up. Can somebody use words to describe what you would look for regarding favorable and unfavorable character traits, and why they would be so?
Before a machine looks for them, somebody is going to have to decide what they are. If these character traits could be clearly and convincingly explained in words, you would have the foundation of a plan to present to Amtrak and others. If somebody put some deep thought into exploring especially the unfavorable traits, it could appear as a new and fresh perspective for human resources in all fields besides just railroad jobs. Otherwise, saying we have to evaluate character traits just sounds like a platitude that everyone has heard before.
I also believe that if such a character trait template were developed, it would come into some degree of conflict with the Amtrak human resource culture. It would be something along the lines of clashing with Amtrak’s views on human rights, empowerment, and discrimination. The fact that Amtrak may not be willing to apply the sort of judgementalism that is needed for their new hire engineers may actually be at the heart of the problem.
"Fear never ever can be allowed to take over."
This is true and the tendency to allow that can only be observed in real time situations not from the secure confines of a simulator.
"Being able to run a locomotive doesn't mean to be able to judge people."
It does however allow an experienced locomotive engineer to assess the ability of a candidate to operate trains.
Euclid I believe that simulators, human wisdom and expertise of the engineer job, and technical human evaluation and testing could all work to find the pluses and minuses of a job applicant’s character traits as they relate to the requirements of an engineer job. But here is my question: What exactly are those traits? In all of this discussion, I don’t recall seeing this point come up. Can somebody use words to describe what you would look for regarding favorable and unfavorable character traits, and why they would be so? Before a machine looks for them, somebody is going to have to decide what they are. If these character traits could be clearly and convincingly explained in words, you would have the foundation of a plan to present to Amtrak and others. If somebody put some deep thought into exploring especially the unfavorable traits, it could appear as a new and fresh perspective for human resources in all fields besides just railroad jobs. Otherwise, saying we have to evaluate character traits just sounds like a platitude that everyone has heard before. I also believe that if such a character trait template were developed, it would come into some degree of conflict with the Amtrak human resource culture. It would be something along the lines of clashing with Amtrak’s views on human rights, empowerment, and discrimination. The fact that Amtrak may not be willing to apply the sort of judgementalism that is needed for their new hire engineers may actually be at the heart of the problem.
By hiring from within the system you would have some insight as to the character traits you mention.
EuclidBefore a machine looks for them, somebody is going to have to decide what they are. If these character traits could be clearly and convincingly explained in words, you would have the foundation of a plan to present to Amtrak and others. If somebody put some deep thought into exploring especially the unfavorable traits, it could appear as a new and fresh perspective for human resources in all fields besides just railroad jobs. Otherwise, saying we have to evaluate character traits just sounds like a platitude that everyone has heard before.
Earlier I mentioned some of the desirable traits and qualities: "crucial characteristics such as judgement, impulsiveness, vigilance, self-control or conscientiousness." There are doubtless others. The task would be to conduct studies of exemplary current engineers using interviews and appropriate instruments to see which traits are seen with some consistency. From that, a professional could determine what tests would best reveal those dimensions in applicants in a cost-effective manner. This is similar to the procedures used in screening for many other jobs, especially where safety is a concern.
Simply hiring from within and making selection a peer-nominated process simply puts screening and hiring in the hands of the "old boy network" which in most fields is problematic, as is evidenced even on here.
"Simply hiring from within and making selection a peer-nominated process simply puts screening and hiring in the hands of the "old boy network" which in most fields is problematic, as is evidenced even on here."
How so and where is it in evidence here?
243129This is true and the tendency to allow that can only be observed in real time situations not from the secure confines of a simulator.
That is nonsense. There are a lot of situation to be staged on the road for training purposes. If the canditate is lucky he doesn't encounter such situation in training. And then? He gets surprised unprepared by such a situation. And now he might react fear-led with unknown consequences.
And here would be discussed how a railroad can send a seemingly untrained person on the road.
Here good training in a full motion simulator can familiarize the candidates with situations that can't be trained on the road. He learns how to react to such situations until it is almost automatic.
I have two school class mates who bacame captains at Lufthansa. They told me that they quickly forget being in a simulator in very critical situation. It is much better to train the loss of 2 engines of a 4-engine aircraft in a simulator than in the air.
Simulator training is not meant to replace on the road training but supplement it.
Deutsche Bahn trains about 23,000 engineer per year in simulators. Engineers get acquainted with new locomotives in a simulator long before the first locomotive is delivered.Regards, Volker
VOLKER LANDWEHR 243129 This is true and the tendency to allow that can only be observed in real time situations not from the secure confines of a simulator. That is nonsense. There are a lot of situation to be staged on the road for training purposes. If the canditate is lucky he doesn't encounter such situation in training. And then? He gets surprised unprepared by such a situation. And now he might react fear-led with unknown consequences. And here would be discussed how a railroad can send a seemingly untrained person on the road. Here good training in a full motion simulator can familiarize the candidates with situations that can't be trained on the road. He learns how to react to such situations until it is almost automatic. I have two school class mates who bacame captains at Lufthansa. They told me that they quickly forget being in a simulator in very critical situation. It is much better to train the loss of 2 engines of a 4-engine aircraft in a simulator than in the air. Simulator training is not meant to replace on the road training but supplement it. Deutsche Bahn trains about 23,000 engineer per year in simulators. Engineers get acquainted with new locomotives in a simulator long before the first locomotive is delivered.Regards, Volker
243129 This is true and the tendency to allow that can only be observed in real time situations not from the secure confines of a simulator.
Nonsense? Simulators cannot cover all situations. You must possess the character to deal with the unexpected. You compare airline pilot situational training with locomotive engineer training so I shall compare benign combat training with real time combat situations. All the situational training under benign circumstances goes out the window when the first shot is fired in anger. If you possess the proper character you survive. You panic you will not. This can apply to railroad engineers and airline pilots. Nothing beats real time situations. One must possess the character to deal with the unexpected and this can be determined by those who have experienced such i.e. veteran pilots, engineers, infantrymen.
Simulators are an aid and do not supplant proper hands on training.
243129Simulators cannot cover all situations.
Good programmed full motion simulators can cover a lot more situations than can by cover on the road. Or do you want to let a train run away on steep grade with a candidate at the throttle just to see his fear and how he reacts? If yes I deem it insane.
243129 All the situational training under benign circumstances goes out the window when the first shot is fired in anger. If you possess the proper character you survive. You panic you will not.
Only if people aren't properly trained. Proper training helps to minimize the chance that someone panics.
What do think, why do special forces train in 3rd surroundings over and over again? To make them familiar with possible surprises as help to react correctly.
You don't send soldiers into enemy fire just to test if they have the charakter to survive.
243129This can apply to railroad engineers and airline pilots. Nothing beats real time situations.
Sure but perhaps at the expense of dead people and the loss of an aircraft or train.
243129One must possess the character to deal with the unexpected and this can be determined by those who have experienced such i.e. veteran pilots, engineers, infantrymen.
You can learn to handle the unexpected, and trained safety in ones reactions helps a lot. I would trust a psychologist or human resource managers more to make a good selection.
243129Simulators are an aid and do not supplant proper hands on training.
Good simulator training is as important as hands on training. Nobody said the simulator shall replace hands on training.Regards, Volker
VOLKER LANDWEHR 243129 Simulators are an aid and do not supplant proper hands on training. Good simulator training is as important as hands on training. Nobody said the simulator shall replace hands on training.Regards, Volker
243129 Simulators are an aid and do not supplant proper hands on training.
Train handling accidents that happen on simulators cost much less to fix that does the same accident in the real world.
A well done simulator will give its user sufficient cues (audible, visual, impact and maybe even olfactory) that it doesn't take that much mental effort to transfer the mind into the real world. In the Iracing simulation world, the tracks represented have been laser measured and documented down to the patch transitions and tar strips and their affects on race car traction - in both wet and dry conditions. There is no reason a professional grade simulator for rail operations can't do the same over the designated territories the simulator is designed to represent. If done properly, there is no reason Supervision can't throw in any real world anomilies that may happen from time to time (Operating on a Clear and the next signal displays STOP - routing a train to a improper or crew unqualified route - train not responding properly to control inputs) you name the real world situation and a simulator should be able present the situation in a realistic manner to the trainee.
Being more prepared for correct responses in real world situations is always a benefit.
How supervision utilizes what a simulator is capable of and whether multiple simulators are used to replicate the different forms of locomotives a carrier uses is in the hands of the carrier - good, bad or indifferent. Simulator training can be as good or bad as the carrier makes it. Bad simulator training may be worse than no training at all.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
243129 "Simply hiring from within and making selection a peer-nominated process simply puts screening and hiring in the hands of the "old boy network" which in most fields is problematic, as is evidenced even on here." How so and where is it in evidence here?
I and many other posters and readers on here have seen the evidence in most of your posts. Apparently Amtrak officials and other people to whom you sent your proposal or who spoke with you saw the same things.
charlie hebdo 243129 "Simply hiring from within and making selection a peer-nominated process simply puts screening and hiring in the hands of the "old boy network" which in most fields is problematic, as is evidenced even on here." How so and where is it in evidence here? I and many other posters and readers on here have seen the evidence in most of your posts. Apparently Amtrak officials and other people to whom you sent your proposal or who spoke with you saw the same things.
Never mind your Trump like statement. Point it out.
The general consensus here is that simulators and PTC are the be all to end all. You could not be more wrong. They are merely aids. Nothing precludes proper training, something Amtrak has proved incapable of providing.
Have any of you experienced a locomotive simulator? I have. It is a generic video game. None of the territory for which the candidates have been hired is displayed. So what good is it? Each territory has it's own 'perils' which can only be experienced by real time training.
Have any of you been to the 'state of the art' training facility in Wilmington DE? I have. It is all 'hat no cattle'. Five engineers, myself among them, from Zone 1 spent five days there to qualify on the newly acquired ACELA train set. We were shown a slideshow by a representative of the manufacturer, given operating manuals which included instructions on how to operate the coffee maker in the galley(???). After five days of boring, insignificant and useless rhetoric we were deemed qualified and we never set foot on an ACELA trainset!!! They said that there was none available.
I have since operated the ACELA Express no thanks to the 'training'. I/we figured it out ourselves.
This is what you deal with at Amtrak. Incompetence.
Nothing replaces hands on! That being said a WELL DONE simulator program is better than having a runaway down the mountain because you pissed your air away and didn't know that two of your three engines did not have operative dynamic brakes - like you thought you had.
Amtrak may be incapable of setting up and running a valid simulator facility.
From my direct experience, their Crew Management is incompetent with procedures to have relief Conductors or Engineers in place when the ones on Amtrak trains are about to exceed the Hours of Service.
243129 charlie hebdo 243129 "Simply hiring from within and making selection a peer-nominated process simply puts screening and hiring in the hands of the "old boy network" which in most fields is problematic, as is evidenced even on here." How so and where is it in evidence here? I and many other posters and readers on here have seen the evidence in most of your posts. Apparently Amtrak officials and other people to whom you sent your proposal or who spoke with you saw the same things. Never mind your Trump like statement. Point it out.
Your last statement shows how desperate and uninformed you are. "Trump-like"? That seems to be your new silly insult, earlier to another member and now to me. So far off the mark as to be laughable. "Point it out"? Number one, I don't take orders from you. Number two, I would run out of space and time pointing out all the examples on here of how having someone with your attitudes and temperment involved with screening, hiring, training and supervising would be a fiasco. Obviously as mediocre as Amtrak is, they still knew enough to reject your proposal (or would have if you hadn't first rudely walked away). They must have been glad you did the deed for them.
charlie hebdo 243129 charlie hebdo 243129 "Simply hiring from within and making selection a peer-nominated process simply puts screening and hiring in the hands of the "old boy network" which in most fields is problematic, as is evidenced even on here." How so and where is it in evidence here? I and many other posters and readers on here have seen the evidence in most of your posts. Apparently Amtrak officials and other people to whom you sent your proposal or who spoke with you saw the same things. Never mind your Trump like statement. Point it out. Your last statement shows how desperate and uninformed you are. "Trump-like"? That seems to be your new silly insult, earlier to another member and now to me. So far off the mark as to be laughable. "Point it out"? Number one, I don't take orders from you. Number two, I would run out of space and time pointing out all the examples on here of how having someone with your attitudes and temperment involved with screening, hiring, training and supervising would be a fiasco. Obviously as mediocre as Amtrak is, they still knew enough to reject your proposal (or would have if you hadn't first rudely walked away). They must have been glad you did the deed for them.
Sorry Charlie, but our numbered friend did ask you a straightforward question and you have not answered it.
Not to say he's the nicest person here, certainly rubs many the wrong way. Not saying his points are invalid, indeed I believe he's on point. Especially in light of the transcript from the engineer interview
ThatcsaTh, the angle that cab simulation helps us never denied here. What is being denied is that co workers have the ability to spot problem employees. YallY throw out the good ol boy argument, alluding to racism and sexism. Till you've been in the shoes, that's a bold position.
I've had my life in the hands of others over the years. I didn't worry about their physical appearance, could they yank the rope hard enough to get me to safety was my concern.. were they competent enough to not drop 10000# on me? Did I need to worry about being squashed between a truck and building?
IllI just say that I've trusted many who show they have the skills regardless of what test our employers had.
My wife on the other hand, I wouldn't trust my life to.
Modeling the Cleveland and Pittsburgh during the PennCentral era starting on the Cleveland lakefront and ending in Mingo junction
As I expected. You cannot support your statements when confronted so you resort to Trump-like tactics and avoid answering. That seems to be your modus operandi as you have done that previously in this thread.
I don't think anyone has even hinted at using simulators to replace OJT. But they can and should be used in addition (speaking as someone who HAS used locomotive simulators).
And if you go in with the mindset that it is just a big video game, well, you probably aren't going to benefit fully from it (even though video games can be pretty realistic). And if that is someone's attitude to a piece of the training process - then they should seek employment elsewhere, IMO.
243129As I expected. You cannot support your statements when confronted so you resort to Trump-like tactics and avoid answering. That seems to be your modus operandi as you have done that previously in this thread.
I suggest you read over your posts with as much objectivity as you can summon. Perhaps then you will see the pattern that I and others have seen, that of an bitter, angry person who blames and attacks others, even when they have offered suggestions, which you always reject out of hand. You are always right about everything, of course, so you don't need help, only want everyone to agree with you.
charlie hebdo 243129 As I expected. You cannot support your statements when confronted so you resort to Trump-like tactics and avoid answering. That seems to be your modus operandi as you have done that previously in this thread. I suggest you read over your posts with as much objectivity as you can summon. Perhaps then you will see the pattern that I and others have seen, that of an bitter, angry person who blames and attacks others, even when they have offered suggestions, which you always reject out of hand. You are always right about everything, of course, so you don't need help, only want everyone to agree with you.
243129 As I expected. You cannot support your statements when confronted so you resort to Trump-like tactics and avoid answering. That seems to be your modus operandi as you have done that previously in this thread.
You still refuse to qualify your statements ergo they are without substance.
I see that you have anointed yourself as spokesman for "others". Interesting.
"I and others have seen, that of an bitter, angry person who blames and attacks others"
Please qualify that statement. As far as your accusation that I attack others I have stated before I am reactive not proactive.
I tell it like it is minus the flowery rhetoric and the backslapping ho ho ho nauseating insincere 'corporate' fawning.
243129As far as your accusation that I attack others I have stated before I am reactive not proactive.
That is definitively not true you just do not realize it. You think being straightforward include rude.
You are very fast belittling other people like asking for "time in the trenches" to make you look better though it doesn't matter in the context, or threatening me with: "I would love to launch an experiment with you and your "no experience needed cognitive processes" behind the throttle of a 10,000 ton freight train on a 3% downgrade. You would no doubt 'soil your linen'."
I see this as personal attack and I can't remember that I attacked you personally but your feeling might be different.
That is the crux, people feel differently and everybody needs to consider to get along. But that is something you apperently never learned.Regards, Volker
VOLKER LANDWEHRThat is the crux, people feel differently and everybody needs to consider to get along. But that is something you apperently never learned. Regards, Volker
He can continue to take pride in "telling it how it is".
Too bad he's just shouting into empty rooms.
zugmann VOLKER LANDWEHR That is the crux, people feel differently and everybody needs to consider to get along. But that is something you apperently never learned. Regards, Volker He can continue to take pride in "telling it how it is". Too bad he's just shouting into empty rooms.
VOLKER LANDWEHR That is the crux, people feel differently and everybody needs to consider to get along. But that is something you apperently never learned. Regards, Volker
At least the rooms aren't talking back, then we'd really be in trouble!
There is a entire segment of the population that believes lies of omission, lies of commision, supension of reality and derrogitory nick name calling is - "telling it how it is".
BaltACD There is a entire segment of the population that believes lies of omission, lies of commision, supension of reality and derrogitory nick name calling is - "telling it how it is".
+2!!
Okay so we have Volker who cannot take 'big boy talk', the usual 'snipers', a guy who cannot spell, being 'rude' (according to Volker) and a guy who makes baseless allegations backing up the guy who cannot spell. Do I have that right? Seems to me I've 'interloped' a good old boy forum. Now back on topic Amtrak is an accident waiting to happen again.
243129Okay so we have Volker who cannot take 'big boy talk', the usual 'snipers', a guy who cannot spell, being 'rude' (according to Volker) and a guy who makes baseless allegations backing up the guy who cannot spell. Do I have that right? Seems to me I've 'interloped' a good old boy forum. Now back on topic Amtrak is an accident waiting to happen again.
The reality of the world - the next accident is always waiting to happen. Be that Amtrak's, BNSF's, Gulf & Warrior Barge Line, White Star Line, United Airlines, I-95 - as humans, we try to learn from the mistakes and undertake efforts from preventing them happening again and then we move on, until the next accident happens. Not everybody will agree with what was learned from the accidents or what the proper steps to fix the errors are going forward. Such is life.
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