Euclid,
It is a foregone conclusion that the NTSB will bang the drum loudly about PTC, which frankly has nothing to do with this wreck. The NTSB Board is another bunch of politically motivated hacks. Taken as a whole, it is no longer an impartial truth seeker.
I am leaning strongly to consultant Hiatt's theory that enginemen were not adequately trained on this segment of track. That is a management failure most likely caused by WSDOT being in a hurry to open the line so they could get a Federal payment, and ATK's local management not insisting on doing it right, perhaps because they do not know what right is.
If the above is true, then the NTSB, WSDOT, and ATK are all getting their story straight, figuring out how to suppress the inadequate training story, and making sure they do not call Hiatt. If they do not call him to testify, then the conspiracy is in place. Blame it all on the engineer and lack of PTC. No failure of government here folks!
Mac
EuclidMaybe we are hearing nothing further about the role of the engineer because NTSB is interested in helping Amtrak shape the view that it is not the engineer, but us the general public who are at fault for not funding PTC.
oh boy, now we're in full conspiracy mode.
*yawn*
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
What will happen when a PTC controlled train has an accident? With the layers of computers and communication, will it be difficult to determine where the system failed? The one thing that PTC will eliminate is the engineer in the fault chain. This will make it far more difficult to examine failures (unless the PTC unit goes up in smoke).
petitnjWhat will happen when a PTC controlled train has an accident? With the layers of computers and communication, will it be difficult to determine where the system failed? The one thing that PTC will eliminate is the engineer in the fault chain. This will make it far more difficult to examine failures (unless the PTC unit goes up in smoke).
As long as there is a Engineer on a train - it will be his fault no matter how many technological tools are in charge of the operation and no matter how well they work or don't work.
When CADS was initially installed at CSX Jacksonville Dispatching Center - technology was installed that let the computer set up the meets and passes on any territory when a dispatcher configured his territory for such operation. Initially management encouraged dispatchers to use the 'automatic' function to run their territories, however, once 'automatic' was observed in operation and a number of dispatchers got discipline assessed for 'improper' operation of their territories, 'automatic' became a rarely used tool as it created many more problems than it solved.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
PNWRMNMIt is a foregone conclusion that the NTSB will bang the drum loudly about PTC, which frankly has nothing to do with this wreck.
PTC has nothing to do with this accident directly as it was not implemented yet. The accident could have been avoided with a working PTC so it is a topic in this case. I think the NY Times article sums it up quite nicely. Expensive safety measures are mostly pressured by public or politics. If a single RR would precede it would be at an economical disadvantage.
What I don't understand is the following. IDOT ordered new designed locomotives, the Siemens SC44 Charger. The locomotives were delivered als NTSB told without on-board PTC equipment though it is cristal clear that they will need it briefly.Regards, Volker
I see three tiers of responsibility for this derailement which are being offered by the media:
1) The engineer who was running the train and failed to slow for the speed restriction.
2) Amtrak who inadequately trained the engineer for the job.
3) The taxpayers who resist spending on infrastructure.
In my opinion, the blame lies with the engineer exclusively if he failed to do the job properly. Items #2 and #3 are agenda items created by making the engineer a victim and shifting the blame to others if he failed to do the job properly.
The actual agenda of #2 and #3 is to expand the power and scope of the interests who empower themselves by spending public money.
[quote user="VOLKER LANDWEHR"]
[/quote above]
The Siemens locomotives were designed when the kind of PTC equipment they would require was still undecided. So there was no way Siemens could quote a price for including this equipment.
If reports of the engineer using the independent brake only on a 'live' passenger train are true that action most assuredly is the result of poor training. I find it hard to believe that any engineer who is qualified on the use of the air braking system would perform such an action. I've said many times before that Amtrak has the unknowing teaching the unknowing. Their hiring and training procedures are directly responsible for these recent disasters. Make no mistake about it. I have implored corporate management to form an oversitoght committee of experienced operations personnel revamp the aforementioned practices.
Euclid is correct on this. I agree 100%
The bulldogs (or is it terriers?) of the national, international, and local press have found out nothing about the engineer. Or, if they have, they've been sworn to secrecy.
Interesting also is that they may well have never asked. As in: "We asked, but they refused to answer, citing....."
I'm not that interested in a name.
I'm interested in:
how the engineer was chosen for this assignment
the work history of the engineer
the training history of the engineer on this route, both recent and previous
results of drug testing
general physical condition (crash damage)
whether engineer has freely volunteered information
what that is
whether engineer has declined to provide information
whether engineer has employed a lawyer (pretty sure I know the answer)
what else the engineer was doing on the cab video besides NOT using a cell phone
and similar information about the accompanying employee
This is all information that exists now, and is unlikely to change with further in-depth investigation and interviews.
I suppose one thing contributing to this lack might be whether or not there will be criminal charges.
Ed
I believe the NTSB has interviewed the engineer right after the accident, assuming he was not hurt so bad that he could not be interviewed. Of course an investigation like this would not delay the interviewing since so much critical information is at risk by delaying the interview.
The NTSB has told us that they intend to interview the engineer in “one or two days hopefully.” Nobody can say what that statement means, but it definitely does NOT mean that they have not yet interviewed the engineer.
One thing the NTSB statement could mean is this: They have interviewed the engineer and thereby learned information that they deem to be so sensitive that they do not want to divulge it to the public either now or ever. So to put at least a temporary end to public curiosity, they have implied that they do not yet know the details revealed by their interview by implying that the interview is still in the future, and therefore, no interview has yet taken place.
I, too, have wondered as to why the train brake was not applied when the engineer realized that the train was going faster than the 79 mph limit. Did he unknowingly reach for the wrong control?
Of course, from what has been reported, he did not know where the train was, and thus did not realize that he needed to immediately bring the train down, not to 79 mph, but as close to 30 mph as possible.
Also, early in the reports, it was said that there were more than two people in the cab--and, later, the reports mention only two.
Johnny
One interesting thing to note. I participate in a Pacific NW railfan facebook group. I am a passive member as I don't live up there anymore. But 2 of the 3 casualities were railfans that were members of the group. Also, it seemed that at least some members of the train crew for 501 (possibly the engineer, that is unclear to me) were ALSO members. The press did indeed discover this link. Other members, in particular other members that are railroad employees (of Atk and BNSF in the area) were being hounded. They had to make the group secret to protect members from harassment from the press. As I said, I'm a passive member and don't know any of the others and would not reveal names if I did, but it is interesting that many involved may have known each other.
Deggesty I, too, have wondered as to why the train brake was not applied when the engineer realized that the train was going faster than the 79 mph limit. Did he unknowingly reach for the wrong control? Of course, from what has been reported, he did not know where the train was, and thus did not realize that he needed to immediately bring the train down, not to 79 mph, but as close to 30 mph as possible. Also, early in the reports, it was said that there were more than two people in the cab--and, later, the reports mention only two.
So the trainee engineer of the first account seems to have transformed into a trainee conductor. Assuming it is the same person, the title switch is not surprising since the media are forever confusing the titles of engineer and conductor.
As to reducing speed in response to the over-speed system warning, I assume he did not desire a very large reduction in speed since he was only about 2 mph over the limit. On the other hand, he probably wanted that speed reduction of happen as quickly as possible. Considering those two requirements, apparently he considered the best option was making an application of the independent brake.
daveklepper VOLKER LANDWEHR What I don't understand is the following. IDOT ordered new designed locomotives, the Siemens SC44 Charger. The locomotives were delivered als NTSB told without on-board PTC equipment though it is cristal clear that they will need it briefly.Regards, Volker The Siemens locomotives were designed when the kind of PTC equipment they would require was still undecided. So there was no way Siemens could quote a price for including this equipment.
VOLKER LANDWEHR What I don't understand is the following. IDOT ordered new designed locomotives, the Siemens SC44 Charger. The locomotives were delivered als NTSB told without on-board PTC equipment though it is cristal clear that they will need it briefly.Regards, Volker
Passenger carriers for the most part have been the organizations that have been dragging their feet in PTC installation and activation. I suspect their impedements are $$$$$$$$$$.
http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2017/12/27-ptc-progress
WSDOT had to submit all of its requests for reimbursement by the end of the federal fiscal year, which was the end of September. They didn't need to open the line to get paid.
PNWRMNM Euclid, It is a foregone conclusion that the NTSB will bang the drum loudly about PTC, which frankly has nothing to do with this wreck. The NTSB Board is another bunch of politically motivated hacks. Taken as a whole, it is no longer an impartial truth seeker. I am leaning strongly to consultant Hiatt's theory that enginemen were not adequately trained on this segment of track. That is a management failure most likely caused by WSDOT being in a hurry to open the line so they could get a Federal payment, and ATK's local management not insisting on doing it right, perhaps because they do not know what right is. If the above is true, then the NTSB, WSDOT, and ATK are all getting their story straight, figuring out how to suppress the inadequate training story, and making sure they do not call Hiatt. If they do not call him to testify, then the conspiracy is in place. Blame it all on the engineer and lack of PTC. No failure of government here folks! Mac
Responsibility multiplies, doesn't necessarily divide. The engineer, and Amtrak training, and the lack of funds for PTC are all at fault. The USN report of the two naval vessels resulting in deaths was accompaned, as it should have been, with the relief from duty of the 7th Fleet admiral and the next admiral (commander of destroyers IIRC). The report also blamed the unduly heavy workload of personel aboard the ships, and the workload placed on the ships (by extention the legislative and executive branches of government). Ship's crew from enlisted watchkeepers to the captain face disciplinary actions.
ROBIN LUETHE Responsibility multiplies, doesn't necessarily divide.
Responsibility multiplies, doesn't necessarily divide.
Gotta admit I don't totally follow the math, there.
Hope we don't get into imaginary numbers.
Well, we are going through all the conjecture that we go through after every horrific accident. Now there is a conspiracy by NTSB, FRA and Amtrak to conceal the truth from us. Amtrak is a bunch of incompetent bunglers. I've got my own theory to present:
However many people were in the cab, they were all agents radicalized by ISIS and smuggled into this country by way of Mexico, so if the great wall had been in place, this never would have happened. But then, if this plot had failed there was the gunman on the grassy knoll ready to shoot the engineer if he had slowed the train down. That's what I believe.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
7j43k ROBIN LUETHE Responsibility multiplies, doesn't necessarily divide. Gotta admit I don't totally follow the math, there. Hope we don't get into imaginary numbers. Ed
Paul of CovingtonWell, we are going through all the conjecture that we go through after every horrific accident.
Paul, as a former President once said, " I FEEL YOUR PAIN."You have, like Amtrak 501 jumped the track and gone off the rails. Of course I susect that you are being facetious but that is way out there. Though some other posters like to see a conspiricy around every bend. (Puns intended) Time will tell. Hope NTSB prelininary report comes soon so the jackals will have something to sink their fangs into.
"As to reducing speed in response to the over-speed system warning, I assume he did not desire a very large reduction in speed since he was only about 2 mph over the limit. On the other hand, he probably wanted that speed reduction of happen as quickly as possible. Considering those two requirements, apparently he considered the best option was making an application of the independent brake."
As I stated previously use of the independent brake to slow a 'live' passenger train is verboten.
Paul of Covington Well, we are going through all the conjecture that we go through after every horrific accident. Now there is a conspiracy by NTSB, FRA and Amtrak to conceal the truth from us. Amtrak is a bunch of incompetent bunglers. I've got my own theory to present: However many people were in the cab, they were all agents radicalized by ISIS and smuggled into this country by way of Mexico, so if the great wall had been in place, this never would have happened. But then, if this plot had failed there was the gunman on the grassy knoll ready to shoot the engineer if he had slowed the train down. That's what I believe.
Yeah.
As Putin has said: "What doping? I don't see no doping. I think the US is feeding that guy drugs or something."
Nope. Conspiracies don't happen in the real world. Only in some people's twisted minds.
Definition of Conspiracy Theory: The idea that many important political events or economic and social trends are the products of secret plots that are largely unknown to the general public.
Well maybe so if the public has its head in the sand and is not paying attention. But with this Amtrak derailment/NTSB investigation, it is hardly a secret plot. Anybody with a clear head can plainly see what is happening with it. I am surprised that anybody would call it a conspiracy.
We are being told that PTC would have prevented this derailment. There seems to be an awful lot of people who are jumping from that point to the conclusion that because PTC would have prevented the disaster, the lack of PTC caused the disaster. But if PTC is absolutely essential to safe operation, what in the world is Amtrak doing running trains without it? You can’t have it both ways.
YoHo1975One interesting thing to note. I participate in a Pacific NW railfan facebook group. I am a passive member as I don't live up there anymore. But 2 of the 3 casualities were railfans that were members of the group. Also, it seemed that at least some members of the train crew for 501 (possibly the engineer, that is unclear to me) were ALSO members. The press did indeed discover this link. Other members, in particular other members that are railroad employees (of Atk and BNSF in the area) were being hounded. They had to make the group secret to protect members from harassment from the press. As I said, I'm a passive member and don't know any of the others and would not reveal names if I did, but it is interesting that many involved may have known each other.
I am also a member of that group and I think that it is extremely likely that they knew each other, by reputation if not in person. This one hit very close to home.
Don't forget the black helicopters that brought them all in...
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
EuclidWell maybe so if the public has its head in the sand and is not paying attention. But with this Amtrak derailment/NTSB investigation, it is hardly a secret plot. Anybody with a clear head can plainly see what is happening with it. I am surprised that anybody would call it a conspiracy.
After the mess that pathetic excuse for a mayor in Philly made after the Frankford Jct. wreck, I am not surprised the NTSB and other investigative parties are keeping all facts as close to the chest as they can. Let the investigators investigate. I know some on here are dancing at anticipation about making their own conclusions, but oh well. They'll have to find other windmills to tilt for now.
Bicycle Rider Indy The other day I was driving on a state highway and twice as I approached a town I saw signs that indicated my speed and suggested that I slow down. They were effective. I wonder if a simple solution such as this would have helped. The signs flashed and got my attention. Just think they could be installed about where the train should start the braking for the 30 MPH curve and this could not be an expensive solution. That was single track and would be simple stand-alone solution. Heck I think it was even solar powered. My recollection is that the speed limit signs used on railroads are small and low to the ground. Eye level flashing signs might help with situational awareness too.
Could it be that there was not anyone in the cab who was truly qualified for the new territory?
They're even cheaper than I would have guessed! First item in a Google search has them for sale for $3295 each. So for less than 10 grand they could have added a substantial improvement in redundancy protection for this curve in both directions.
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