Connecticut names operator for Springfield-New Haven rail service

[Deggesty]

I do not know if this still holds or not, but three months ago, Amtrak ticket were honored on the Connecticut trins, and Connecticut tickets were honored on Amtrak trains--with the payment of an extra fare. Apparently, Connecticut tickets cost less.

At least one Amtrak Springfield-New Haven train was replaced with a Connecticut train. 

[JPS1]

daveklepper

 Doesn't Amtrak honor MARC's tickets on specific Corridor trains between Washington and Baltimore, and SEPTA tickets on the one or two Amtrak trains that top at Newark, Delaware, as well any Amtrak ticket to and from Philadelphia between 30th Street and Broad Street, possibly even Market East? 

Leaping to the other side of the continent, Coaster ticket holders with a Day Pass or Monthly/30 Day Pass can use their ticket to ride any Amtrak train between Oceanside and San Diego or vice versa.  Certain holiday periods are excluded. 

[daveklepper]

Doesn't Amtrak honor MARC's tickets on specific Corridor trains between Washington and Baltimore, and SEPTA tickets on the one or two Amtrak trains that top at Newark, Delaware, as well any Amtrak ticket to and from Philadelphia between 30th Street and Broad Street, possibly even Market East?

[MidlandMike]

I don't understand why Amtrak even agreed to honoring CT's tickets in the first place.  They don't honor CT's tickets on the NEC, and I would guess that they don't honor any other commuter line's tickets.  Why would ATK turn down a reservation because of no space, and then allow some one with a cheaper ticket on a sold out train?  The Springfield line is a short shuttle operation for Amtrak, that does not seem to be a critical part of the national system.  Perhaps they should just turn this whole operation over to CT.

[Overmod]

BaltACD

Anderson's response sounds like - It is CT's fault because passengers want to use Amtrak, not Amtrak's fault because of lack of maintenance and lack of equipment.

I don't see that at all.  What he says is that he doesn't want to operate trains with standees.  Presumably he interprets the 'all-reservation' policy to assure this by ensuring there won't be more passengers than seats on any particular segment run by any particular train.  The immediate question that 'ought to' be of interest is whether an Amtrak passenger who has missed their train will be similarly denied boarding on a nominally-full train, or whether Amtrak tolerates standing-room-only passengers at any time on any run.

[BaltACD]

blue streak 1

It may get rather nasty between CT DOT and AMTRAK

https://www.courant.com/business/hc-biz-amtrak-new-haven-springfield-20181228-xpycq4yn6vfzvkvhsorileu2ri-story.html

Anderson's response sounds like - It is CT's fault because passengers want to use Amtrak, not Amtrak's fault because of lack of maintenance and lack of equipment.

Growing the business the Anderson way.

[blue streak 1]

It may get rather nasty between CT DOT and AMTRAK

https://www.courant.com/business/hc-biz-amtrak-new-haven-springfield-20181228-xpycq4yn6vfzvkvhsorileu2ri-story.html

 

[blue streak 1]

Now found proposed schedule numbers but not times.  Note: Amtrak will add 3 additional round trips.

http://www.ct.gov/dot/lib/dot/Executive_Summary_SAFE_Hartford_Line_Proposed_Fares_10202017.pdf

[blue streak 1]

CT DOT announces fare structure of the line.

 EDIT just found number of trips.  Amtrak will be adding 3 round trips.

http://www.ct.gov/dot/lib/dot/Executive_Summary_SAFE_Hartford_Line_Proposed_Fares_10202017.pdf

http://www.ct.gov/dot/cwp/view.asp?A=1373&Q=597212

 

[schlimm]

NKP guy

 People in New Haven who fly use the airport (more like an extended driveway, actually!) in that city to connect them at Philadelphia for points west (American Airlines routing).  Or, they take the train to NYC and then a taxi or subway to get to LGA, EWR, or JFK.  Or again, they take a van down I-95 to the NYC airports.  All three ways into and out of New Haven take much time and effort.

Actually, for domestic flights many people in New Haven do not use Tweed or LGA or JFK.  They use Bradley.  Since the flyer from Hartford might lose customers once the insurance company leaves, perhaps they should run a shuttle from the closer Windsor Locks station that is scheduled to meet the train times.

The east coast and Chicago are not like TX. 

[daveklepper]

I belive some rush hour Shore Line East trains run through to and from Stamford.

[blue streak 1]

Does anyone yet have what proposed MAS will be for various segments ?

[RME]

JPS1

NorthWest

There is already a rail line to Bradley; it serves an industrial park adjacent to the airport. 

You are correct.  But it would have to be extended to one of the airport's terminals, which could be costly.  I am hard pressed to see the justification for the cost, although it may be there.

 

Operationally, here is the thing:

 

Half an hour on a shuttle bus out of downtown Hartford is likely to be agony compared with a 5-odd minute run from Windsor Locks (depending on how the route is organized) -- and note that this applies even if the Bradley Flyer IS lengthened to go by way of Windsor Locks both ways (for rail transfer).  Even if it is late arriving at the Locks from Hartford, there is still a controlled short time both to ride and for train riders in a hurry to select an alternate mode of transport.

 

Whether or not passengers from 'elsewhere' on the NEC have a one-seat or two-seat ride to the transfer point, it's a ride on a spacious vehicle where they can stand up, easily use the bathroom, connect to reasonable WiFi or get snacks or drinks, etc. etc. etc. right up to a very short, and reasonably coordinated, short final to the airport.

 

Conversely, there is little if any point spending megabucks to divert some of the Springfield trains up a spur or around a very complicatedly grade-separated loop to approximate a one-seat ride that may involve fairly dramatic elevation changes to actually reach the check-in or gates at Bradley.  Whereas the bus does this with what might be little more than a couple of seagull interchanges or dedicated lane construction inbound -- dust off the old '50s material on why buses are so much better than streetcars; it still applies.  Imagine, too, what a hit the schedule time of the 'diverted' trains will take for all the riders to further points, and the fun involved in northbounds having to cross over the (already somewhat carefully coordinated traffic on) southbound main unless you put in a very expensive and not easily packaged overhead loop and bridge a la Metrolink.  Much easier to keep the conveyor of trains stopping expediently at Windsor Locks and having the equivalent of a trolley that meets all the trains... I think.

 

If the equipment for the shuttle bus turns out to be more economical to run from Hartford, it could be made as a modern approximation of a Pickwick coach, with better accommodations and amenities to make the half-hour more bearable or attractive, and by extension some of this might benefit Windsor Locks transferees too.  It is not easy to build a road coach with zero walkover height even with multiple-stage kneeling, but it might be done with quick enough speed to match any of the curbs it encounters, with machine-vision guidance to eliminate most of the effective 'platform gap', and that in conjunction with the high-level platforms being put in for the new trains (or Brightline-style active bridges) would give complete ADA accommodation without particular strain ... at any point in the airport or anywhere else.  You can't approximate that with a train unless you spend dramatically more both on its suspension systems and station facilities.

 

Something I wouldn't do, although there are sure to be those that suggest it, is make the Bradley Flyer service the Hartford railroad station, which would save the train riders some change and, nominally, a few minutes of train riding.  That might be a way to offer initial service, until something explicitly running at Windsor Locks can be implemented, but it sure won't be a reliable gauge of potential demand for the service. 

 

I tend to agree with the posters who think 'transfer' between Bradley and, say, Liberty at EWR would be best handled via the same sort of short hop that applies to New Haven's modified driveway, rather than with dedicated or coordinated high-speed train service between the two.  But a high-speed train is the next best thing for that; straight buses or limos would be hopeless a great part of the day, even if they offered B&O-like one-seat-ride running to a range of "near-final" destinations, or to the individual terminals at EWR.

[MidlandMike]

NKP guy

 

 

MidlandMike

Conn. has MetroNorth, Shoreline East, and now the Hartford Line.  Why don't they combine the 3 entities and consolidate admin and operations for obvious efficiencies?

 

 

 

 

 

   One easy answer, Mike, is that Connecticut does not own any part of MetroNorth.  But your point is a good one; I bet these services become more harmonized and improved for the passengers as time goes by.   As an Ohioan (who frequently travels twixt NYP & NHV), I can only envy Connecticutians in that their state believes in public transportation and not just highways.  At least Nutmegers get something train-wise for their tax money; we Buckeyes don't.

   And schlimm, your good idea about linking Bradley Field with the new Hartford line via a shuttle bus is so logical and obvious that it's sure to happen soon; a rail link, though, is probably too much to hope for. 

 

Conn. owns the "MetroNorth" track in CT and the railcars, MetroNorth is the operator.

http://www.ct.gov/dot/lib/dot/documents/dpt/2013railcolor11x17_2D_09-27-2013.pdf

Crossing into NY and MA complicates things, but not a deal breaker.

[PJS1]

NorthWest

There is already a rail line to Bradley; it serves an industrial park adjacent to the airport. 

You are correct.  But it would have to be extended to one of the airport's terminals, which could be costly.  I am hard pressed to see the justification for the cost, although it may be there.

I will be in Hartford in September, and I plan to take the Bradley Flyer downtown. If I remember I'll let you know how it works out.

 

[PJS1]

blue streak 1

 

 

JPS1

 

I suspect most people in Connecticut, like most people in Texas, drive to the airport, or they have someone take them.  I don't think a rail line to the airport is likely to change this outcome in the near future.    

 

 

 

 

Do not lump all airport transit traffic into sparse useage.  Atlanta's MARTA publishes that the most boardings at any station is the ATL airport station.  So probably close to same number getting off.   Last heard it was 10% of systemwide boardings but that figure is several years ago. 

 

I have taken MARTA to the airport several times.  I wonder what percentage of those getting on and/or off the train at Hartsfield are passengers vs. employees.

 

A good many folks take the Orange line to and from DFW, but if my observations are correct, most of them work at the airport. 

[blue streak 1]

JPS1

 

I suspect most people in Connecticut, like most people in Texas, drive to the airport, or they have someone take them.  I don't think a rail line to the airport is likely to change this outcome in the near future.    

 

 

Do not lump all airport transit traffic into sparse useage.  Atlanta's MARTA publishes that the most boardings at any station is the ATL airport station.  So probably close to same number getting off.   Last heard it was 10% of systemwide boardings but that figure is several years ago.

[NorthWest]

There is already a rail line to Bradley; it serves an industrial park adjacent to the airport.

[NKP guy]

   The Bradley "Flyer" only runs hourly?  Then why bother?  Patrons are supposed to wait for up to an hour and then go for a 30 minute van ride?  Why not just hire a taxi?  No wonder the people who use this service are likely to be airport employees. Airline passengers would likely bite the bullet and take a taxi or a hotel-airport shuttle.  

   More importantly, attention must be paid to the fact that some hundreds of top corporate jobs in Hartford (at Aetna Insurance) are being relocated to Manhattan.  That means there will be even less corporate use of Bradley Field in the future, which translates, I'm afraid, into even less call to have frequent shuttle service to & from its facilities.

   People in New Haven who fly use the airport (more like an extended driveway, actually!) in that city to connect them at Philadelphia for points west (American Airlines routing).  Or, they take the train to NYC and then a taxi or subway to get to LGA, EWR, or JFK.  Or again, they take a van down I-95 to the NYC airports.  All three ways into and out of New Haven take much time and effort.

   Hartford and New Haven are small aviation markets;  one is about to get smaller yet.  I think fast rail travel will continue to look better and better to Connecticutians in the future because commercial aviation there is already woeful and about to get more so.

   

[PJS1]

The Bradley Flyer runs from Union Station, Hartford, directly to Bradley Field. Passengers from south of Hartford could transfer to the bus without much hassle. 

Building a rail line into Bradley Field does not appear to have a positive cost/benefit outcome, especially given the current bus arrangement from Hartford.

Three or four times a year I fly into DFW and take DART's Orange Line to Dallas.  I don't see many people with suitcases on the Orange Line; I see some people who appear to work at the airport.  And I see a lot of people that take the train to or from the intermediate stations served by the Orange Line. I suspect this may be the case for a lot of rail lines that take people to the airport.  

I suspect most people in Connecticut, like most people in Texas, drive to the airport, or they have someone take them.  I don't think a rail line to the airport is likely to change this outcome in the near future.    

[schlimm]

RME

Shouldn't take much of a detour to access a station in Windsor Locks 'on the way' from Hartford to the relevant Bradley terminals.  It would be interesting to see a detailed study of the various potential "short final" routes and the road construction needed to optimize the transfer at Windsor Locks both ways.  A university might get useful mileage for architecture and transportation students out of several aspects of this, and implementation of the incremental service might be remarkably quick in the interim.

There are some interesting 'train to the plane' alternatives possible given the relatively large amount of equipment to cover the different operators' expected rail service frequency.  I remember some discussion of Bradley as an expanded candidate for the 'fourth airport' if Stewart and its somewhat troublesome Graham Line expansion doesn't pan out well, and short and well-coordinated shuttle service to a frequent 'spine' is likely preferable to an expensive dedicated spur.

 

There is a very spartan station at Windsor Locks proper served by Amtrak currently. It's 4.5 to 6.0 miles to Bradley, depending on route. I don't think Stewart is relevant, as it is 82 miles (1 hr, 40 min.) from Yale, while Bradley is only 50 minutes.

[RME]

Shouldn't take much of a detour to access a station in Windsor Locks 'on the way' from Hartford to the relevant Bradley terminals.  It would be interesting to see a detailed study of the various potential "short final" routes and the road construction needed to optimize the transfer at Windsor Locks both ways.  A university might get useful mileage for architecture and transportation students out of several aspects of this, and implementation of the incremental service might be remarkably quick in the interim.

There are some interesting 'train to the plane' alternatives possible given the relatively large amount of equipment to cover the different operators' expected rail service frequency.  I remember some discussion of Bradley as an expanded candidate for the 'fourth airport' if Stewart and its somewhat troublesome Graham Line expansion doesn't pan out well, and short and well-coordinated shuttle service to a frequent 'spine' is likely preferable to an expensive dedicated spur.

[schlimm]

JPS1

 

 

schlimm

Perhaps a spur could be built into Bradley International Airport from the Windsor Locks Station, or at least shuttle buses.  Very close and could attract many air travelers who currently use a car, limo, taxi or bus. 

 

 

CT Transit, which is the public transport operator in Hartford, offers the Bradley Flyer.  It is an express bus from downtown Hartford to Bradley International Airport.  It runs nearly every hour and takes approximately 30 minutes to get to the airport.  The fare is $1.75.

I worked as a flight instructor and corporate pilot in Hartford for nearly five years.  I was based at Brainard Field, which is a general aviation airport near  downtown Hartford.  It was Hartford's commercial airport prior to the development of Bradley Field, which was built to serve Hartford and Springfield.  I flew into and out of Bradley almost nightly.

 

I was thinking more of folks along the shore, such as in New Haven. Bradley is a lot closer and quicker than going to LaGuardia.

[PJS1]

schlimm

Perhaps a spur could be built into Bradley International Airport from the Windsor Locks Station, or at least shuttle buses.  Very close and could attract many air travelers who currently use a car, limo, taxi or bus. 

CT Transit, which is the public transport operator in Hartford, offers the Bradley Flyer.  It is an express bus from downtown Hartford to Bradley International Airport.  It runs nearly every hour and takes approximately 30 minutes to get to the airport.  The fare is $1.75.

I worked as a flight instructor and corporate pilot in Hartford for nearly five years.  I was based at Brainard Field, which is a general aviation airport near  downtown Hartford.  It was Hartford's commercial airport prior to the development of Bradley Field, which was built to serve Hartford and Springfield.  I flew into and out of Bradley almost nightly.

[schlimm]

NKP guy

your good idea about linking Bradley Field with the new Hartford line via a shuttle bus is so logical and obvious that it's sure to happen soon; a rail link, though, is probably too much to hope for.

 

Never overestimate the wisdom of executives, whether in corporations or government.

In 2002, the Düsseldorf International Airport was linked to a busy (about 300 passenger trains each day) mainline of the DB with a Sky Train (H-bahn Hängebahn)

[blue streak 1]

Is the equipment assignments needed for this service been satisfied ?  Last heard was that M-8s modified to be capaable of operating both under the MNRR 12,5 kV and Amtrak's 25 kV east of New Haven were to be allocated to the Shore line east service.  Believe there were some test runs by some M-8s on that route ?

Then the present Shore line east equipment would be assigned to the New Haven Springfield route.  Believe the SLE  locos are undergoing major overhauls to extend their life ?  Have heard that there is some concern that if the passenger loads keep growing on the MNRR route there might not be enough M-8s ? That is even with the additional M-8s that are being built ?

[NKP guy]

MidlandMike

Conn. has MetroNorth, Shoreline East, and now the Hartford Line.  Why don't they combine the 3 entities and consolidate admin and operations for obvious efficiencies?

 

 

   One easy answer, Mike, is that Connecticut does not own any part of MetroNorth.  But your point is a good one; I bet these services become more harmonized and improved for the passengers as time goes by.   As an Ohioan (who frequently travels twixt NYP & NHV), I can only envy Connecticutians in that their state believes in public transportation and not just highways.  At least Nutmegers get something train-wise for their tax money; we Buckeyes don't.

   And schlimm, your good idea about linking Bradley Field with the new Hartford line via a shuttle bus is so logical and obvious that it's sure to happen soon; a rail link, though, is probably too much to hope for. 

[MidlandMike]

Conn. has MetroNorth, Shoreline East, and now the Hartford Line.  Why don't they combine the 3 entities and consolidate admin and operations for obvious efficiencies?

[NorthWest]

It isn't identified very clearly, but I think that this is the startup of Shore Line East's Hartford Line, which is why their GP40-2Hs are undergoing rebuild and they bought NJT's P40DCs and new M8s. This is not replacing the Springfield Shuttle to my knowledge.

Shore Line East riders generally had to switch at New Haven to Metro North already.