n012944 BaltACD n012944 BaltACD If I feel that my seat on that flight is worth more to me than what the carrier is offering, that is MY DECISION, not the carriers. That being said, I don't understand why they needed four seats. Unless the cockpit jumpseat was inop, one of the pilots of the deadhead crew should have been up there. My guess was the pilots were acting like primadonnas and refused to fly in the jumpseat. I encountered way too many pilots like that when I worked for an airline. What airlines are required to give you when you have been IDB. https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/250.5 The problem is - the passenger WAS NOT denied boarding. He was thrown off AFTER he had occupied his assigned seat. Laws are written in words, words have meaning. He was removed from a flight he had lawfully boarded. Irrelevent.
BaltACD n012944 BaltACD If I feel that my seat on that flight is worth more to me than what the carrier is offering, that is MY DECISION, not the carriers. That being said, I don't understand why they needed four seats. Unless the cockpit jumpseat was inop, one of the pilots of the deadhead crew should have been up there. My guess was the pilots were acting like primadonnas and refused to fly in the jumpseat. I encountered way too many pilots like that when I worked for an airline. What airlines are required to give you when you have been IDB. https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/250.5 The problem is - the passenger WAS NOT denied boarding. He was thrown off AFTER he had occupied his assigned seat. Laws are written in words, words have meaning. He was removed from a flight he had lawfully boarded.
n012944 BaltACD If I feel that my seat on that flight is worth more to me than what the carrier is offering, that is MY DECISION, not the carriers. That being said, I don't understand why they needed four seats. Unless the cockpit jumpseat was inop, one of the pilots of the deadhead crew should have been up there. My guess was the pilots were acting like primadonnas and refused to fly in the jumpseat. I encountered way too many pilots like that when I worked for an airline. What airlines are required to give you when you have been IDB. https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/250.5
BaltACD If I feel that my seat on that flight is worth more to me than what the carrier is offering, that is MY DECISION, not the carriers.
That being said, I don't understand why they needed four seats. Unless the cockpit jumpseat was inop, one of the pilots of the deadhead crew should have been up there. My guess was the pilots were acting like primadonnas and refused to fly in the jumpseat. I encountered way too many pilots like that when I worked for an airline.
What airlines are required to give you when you have been IDB.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/250.5
The problem is - the passenger WAS NOT denied boarding. He was thrown off AFTER he had occupied his assigned seat. Laws are written in words, words have meaning. He was removed from a flight he had lawfully boarded.
Irrelevent.
$255M of irrelevant in todays stock market losses. Remember - Perception is reality. United has been percieved to be in the wrong.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Irrelevent. IDBs come in many forms. While oversales is one reason, so are weight and balance and overweight situations. Those do not come up until after boarding, and fall under the same rules as I posted above, as long as the plane is over 60 seats. Under 60 seats, you get less compensation.
An "expensive model collector"
If the United crew management is so incompetent that the permitted the flight to board WITHOUT having confirmed takers for 'denied boarding' then all the guilt falls to United's incompetence.
No it is not. While you don't have to volunteer your seat, the moment you are selected for to be denied boarding involuntarily, you are at the mercy of the law. Which was the case for the United passenger. It is all laid out in the contract of carriage, the fine print you get when buying the ticket. While the process of removing the passenger went horribly wrong, the passenger bears some responsiblity when he refused both the flight crew and police's demands to leave the aircraft.
blue streak 1 Every employee involved is going to be called on the carpet. Gate agent, Gate agent's supervisor. concourse manager, station manager. flight attendants. their supervisors, pilots, their supervisors, PR just to name a few. + possibily the contract security firm, and now hear some asian countries are complaining. Wonder what the US DOT will want to know ? The sword will reach as high as the top management can keep it from reaching .
Every employee involved is going to be called on the carpet. Gate agent, Gate agent's supervisor. concourse manager, station manager. flight attendants. their supervisors, pilots, their supervisors, PR just to name a few. + possibily the contract security firm, and now hear some asian countries are complaining.
Wonder what the US DOT will want to know ? The sword will reach as high as the top management can keep it from reaching .
I agree entirely with Balt, but not with Streak above. According to the President, the employees were simply following proceedure. If that is so, and I believe it is, then the person really responsable is the middle management bureaucrat who wrote the proceedure, and whoever approved it. Neither will be found and if they are, so what. The working folks have the "I was following orders/proceedures defense", and it will stick if United is stupid enough to go after them after congratulating them for following proceedures.
Top management is responsible for the militaristic mindset of the gate agents and cabin/flight crews who failed to offer enough to buy passengers off the plane. My only question is why they did not offer enough to get the four seats? Proceedure or mindset?? That is where things went wrong.
Involuntary removal has probably happened dozens of times before. This time the victim did not go quietly (good for him), and there were lots of cell phone videos, and extra bonus there was blood involved.
Solution is an abject apology from Munuoz and to change the policy to give gate agents unlimited authority to buy back seats and to prohibit forceable removal.
Not rocket science, just common sense. Like John Prine said "It don't make no sense that common sense don't make no sense no more."
Mac
Being in the business it would have been cheaper for Untitdy to run an extra section to Louisville (SDF) than what this bad publicity is going to cost. As well why didn't gate agents just keep uping the ante for denied boarding compensation until they got volunteers ?.
All 4 removed from airplane will get a nice compensation especially the doctor who was assulted. Wonder if United will try to ban him from their airline ? The lawyers are going to get rich.
EDIT: This appears to be a last minute schedule for the D/H flight crew since 4 passengers had to be taken off. Whenever involved with one of these it was the responsibility of crew schedule to notify gate agent of an X number of must rides that had to be left vacant. So crew schedule may also be on the carpet. Unknown how United handles the notification.
BaltACD Oscar Munoz and his minions blew it. Forcing PAYING PASSENGERS off of a flight so the company employees can deadhead to the flights destination is wrong on too many levels to count. The flight was not overbooked, it was fully sold and only had a seat shortage when United, through the incompetence of it's crew management department felt they needed to deadhead a crew. Your ERROR does not create a EMERGENCY for ME. If I feel that my seat on that flight is worth more to me than what the carrier is offering, that is MY DECISION, not the carriers. A former boss of my LOVED getting bumped, and drove a hard bargin for it, most of the time round trip 1st class passage to any and all destinations that the carrier had. He valued 'free' vacations more than getting home at the 'appointed' time. Each of us have our own motivations.
Oscar Munoz and his minions blew it. Forcing PAYING PASSENGERS off of a flight so the company employees can deadhead to the flights destination is wrong on too many levels to count. The flight was not overbooked, it was fully sold and only had a seat shortage when United, through the incompetence of it's crew management department felt they needed to deadhead a crew.
Your ERROR does not create a EMERGENCY for ME. If I feel that my seat on that flight is worth more to me than what the carrier is offering, that is MY DECISION, not the carriers. A former boss of my LOVED getting bumped, and drove a hard bargin for it, most of the time round trip 1st class passage to any and all destinations that the carrier had. He valued 'free' vacations more than getting home at the 'appointed' time. Each of us have our own motivations.
Given the doctor was Chinese, this is now a diplomatic and PR mess.
Ordinary Chinese (friends) are angry.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
In spite of the latest Chicago horror story about the ordeal of traveling by air....the general public is still mainly unaware of Amtrak. A radio host voluteered that he will now drive any trip of 6 hours or less to avoid the airport. Not me. I am in the lounge car reading and sipping overpriced wine.
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