May 5, 2017 7:30 p.m. EDT
Due to previously scheduled track work and ongoing speed restrictions, customers may experience some minor delays entering and departing New York Penn Station. This work is to rehabilitate the track and switch structures leading toward the two tubes of the Hudson River Tunnel.
WOW. What a great detailed description of what happened. As I previously posted, they are shoving 50 LB of people into a 20 LB bag. And doing it every day. And do they get any thanks. NO. It amazes me that it has worked as well as it has. I think a lot of credit goes to the loyal employees that keep it going. And no thanks to any politicians who don't earn their pay and want to defund every thing needed by the public.
blue streak 1Complete explanation of the 3 incidents at NYPS by Amtrak official. https://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/978/51/Amtrak-EVP-COO-Naparstek-New%20Jersey%20Legislature-Apr-28-2017.pdf
https://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/978/51/Amtrak-EVP-COO-Naparstek-New%20Jersey%20Legislature-Apr-28-2017.pdf
The salient point from a 'big picture' perspective!
Scott Naparstek My name is Scot Naparstek, and I am the Chief Operating Officer of Amtrak.I am responsible to Wick Moorman and to the Amtrak Board of Directors for the operation of the 21,000 mile Amtrak system and the maintenance of our equipment and infrastructure. I am therefore responsible for the operation and maintenance of New York Penn Station. Dating from 1910, the station now hosts more than 1300 trains on every weekday–which, as you heard, is twice as many as it carried in 1976. The number of station tracks were never expanded to support this volume of traffic, and more trains have been added onto an aging and constrained system that was already operating beyond capacity, stressing the 149 switches and more than a thousand track components that keep trains moving every day. Additionally, the station has signaling and electrification systems dating from the 1930s and any electrical and mechanical components, including HVAC systems, fire and life safety systems, and the structure itself, which must all be maintained and renewed aggressively to support the tremendous demands placed on them at the nation’s busiest transportation facility. As Wick said, the xtraordinary use of the station today illustrates a larger theme. This facility is simply over-capacity and has not received all of the systematic renewal and maintenance it badly needs. We have a 108 year old station that is completely full, doing things it was never designed to do; with no margin for error. As we have just witnessed, under these conditions,relatively small or isolated incidents that might have minimal impacts elsewhere on our system can swell suddenly into major service disruptions here.
My name is Scot Naparstek, and I am the Chief Operating Officer of Amtrak.I am responsible to Wick Moorman and to the Amtrak Board of Directors for the operation of the 21,000 mile Amtrak system and the maintenance of our equipment and infrastructure. I am therefore responsible for the operation and maintenance of New York Penn Station. Dating from 1910, the station now hosts more than 1300 trains on every weekday–which, as you heard, is twice as many as it carried in 1976. The number of station tracks were never expanded to support this volume of traffic, and more trains have been added onto an aging and constrained system that was already operating beyond capacity, stressing the 149 switches and more than a thousand track components that keep trains moving every day. Additionally, the station has signaling and electrification systems dating from the 1930s and any electrical and mechanical components, including HVAC systems, fire and life safety systems, and the structure itself, which must all be maintained and renewed aggressively to support the tremendous demands placed on them at the nation’s busiest transportation facility. As Wick said, the xtraordinary use of the station today illustrates a larger theme. This facility is simply over-capacity and has not received all of the systematic renewal and maintenance it badly needs. We have a 108 year old station that is completely full, doing things it was never designed to do; with no margin for error. As we have just witnessed, under these conditions,relatively small or isolated incidents that might have minimal impacts elsewhere on our system can swell suddenly into major service disruptions here.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Complete explanation of the 3 incidents at NYPS by Amtrak official.
Not sure that anything happened at CUS. My departure was from the south concourse and nothing seemed out of the ordinary. There is ongoing renovation work on the north concourse and departures on that side are being moved around to accomodate that work.
blue streak 1 This work at NYPS may leave some unintended consequences. 1. Is Amtrak having to rob parts especially switch machines from other projects ?
This work at NYPS may leave some unintended consequences.
1. Is Amtrak having to rob parts especially switch machines from other projects ?
Would find it highly unlikely to be related but Chicago Union station had more switch problems this afternoon. Metra departures very confused/ Could Amtrak have moved spare switxh parts from CHI to NYPS ?
2. All the MOW personell and maybe parts moved to the NYPS work is going to leave other projects on hold including ---
a. PTC ?
b. Michigan 110 MPH upgrades ?
c. New Haven - Springfield double track ?
d. WASH US initial upgrades ?
e. Harrisburg area upgrades ?
f. Albany station tracks ?
g. Double tracking north of Albany ?,B
h. CHI ?
i. Possible others ?
JPS1The article indicated Amtrak was aware of the Penn State maintenance issues.
You have an iPhone, don't you?
blue streak 1 3. ...... If operating expenses were somehow lowered as some capital work was postponed then that made NEC closer to or over break even ?
3. ...... If operating expenses were somehow lowered as some capital work was postponed then that made NEC closer to or over break even ?
If property, plant, and equipment is "fixed", and the fix extends the life of the asset, among other criteria, the "fix" expenditures are capitalized.
Capitalized repairs don't have an immediate impact on operating expenses. But they will have an impact in subsequent years as they flow through the income statement as depreciation expense.
According to the Wall Street Journal, Amtrak plans to take three or four Penn Station tracks out of service for the summer. It will be a big time disruption.
The article indicated Amtrak was aware of the Penn State maintenance issues. Its plan was to perform the maintenance at night and on the weekends. The recent incidents, however, highlighted the need to get after them as quickly as practicable. There is nothing like a black eye in the media to get management off of high center.
Rio Grande Valley, CFI,CFII
As to #3. Virtually any experienced railroader would like to do what I call normalized maintenance, that is steady flow of projects to keep the trackwork in condition to withstand the demands made on it, with a reserve for safety.
Most also know that normalized maintenance can be cut back for a while without significant adverse impact, but if you keep doing it your railroad will be plagued with slow orders at best and track caused derialments at worst.
For the first time in decades ATK has a President who knows this in his bones, and seems committed to fix track problems at NYP. Good for him. Privately I wonder how much of his resolve is due to the fact that he is a short timer so can do what is right rather than what is expedient.
Mac
There are at least 3 factors why this work is now required.
1. the obvious. Hurricane Sandy.
2. The major RRs always make one measure when major work is needed on a route is the number of tons over any section. So how many tons had gone over the NYPS by CR & PC before the 1970s rebuild ? Then calculate the number of tons till now ?
3. Of course this may be an example of Boardman's revenge. Capital expenditures the last few FY years has been under budget. If operating expenses were somehow lowered as some capital work was postponed then that made NEC closer to or over break even ?
Penn Station improvement initiatives
http://media.amtrak.com/2017/04/amtrak-president-ceo-wick-moorman-announces-new-york-penn-station-improvement-initiatives/
blue streak 1Was thinking about what the delay was in starting repairs. Could it be that Amtrak had to round up materials ? 1. Cross ties - Are any concrete ties being used ? If wood is Amtrak using preminium hardwoods which might have had to be borrrowed or shipped from a distance ? 2. Rail -- How difficult to obtain the custom designed rails especially the puzzle switches ?. MC may have an idea. 3. switch machines -- Are the NYPS unique or are they generic ? Any rewiring of control circuits ? 4. Any need to change signal system(s) ? 5. Ballast -- 6. 3rd rail upgrades at same time ? Is this work actually the implementation of the west area rehab upgrade that has been planned for some time ?
1. Cross ties - Are any concrete ties being used ? If wood is Amtrak using preminium hardwoods which might have had to be borrrowed or shipped from a distance ?
2. Rail -- How difficult to obtain the custom designed rails especially the puzzle switches ?. MC may have an idea.
3. switch machines -- Are the NYPS unique or are they generic ? Any rewiring of control circuits ?
4. Any need to change signal system(s) ?
5. Ballast --
6. 3rd rail upgrades at same time ?
Is this work actually the implementation of the west area rehab upgrade that has been planned for some time ?
I suspect 1. 2. and 3. were the hold ups. Ties for custom trackwork are custom sized. Custom trackwork by it's very name is specialized for it's particular installation. Switch machines, while normally standard, are not a item that are on hand in bulk numbers.
I suspect the 1st derailment used the available spares in restoring service. With no spares on hand for the 2nd derailment, they had to be ordered and manufactured.
Was thinking about what the delay was in starting repairs. Could it be that Amtrak had to round up materials ?
In view of how frequently there've been issues at Penn Station recently, perhaps this thread should become a "sticky" . . .
- PDN.
We now find that NJT lost the contact material on a PAN The material underneath the contact material is steel and it welded to the CAT.
Now Amtrak is evidently doing some ( much needed ?) work on the ladder track sections.
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April 25, 2017
9:00 a.m. ET
Customers may experience delays between New York and New Jersey due to ongoing track inspections and maintenance at New York Penn Station. We apologize to customers for any delays as a result of this work.
Maybe this latest NJT breakdown in NYPS will take the heat off Amtrak. Of course maybe it was caused by Amtrak ?
April 14, 2017 5:00 p.m. EDT Amtrak engineering forces are assisting a NJ Transit train that became disabled on the west side of New York Penn Station. Customers should expect delays between New York and Newark, NJ until the train is moved.
This information is correct as of the above time and date. Information is subject to change as conditions warrant.
http://www.railwayage.com/index.php/passenger/intercity/amtraks-moorman-apologizes-for-ny-penn-statioin-derailment.html?channel=41
Paul Milenkovic Speaking of jumping to conclusions, wasn't your initial reaction here that it had to be a train driver who ran a signal? Do you suppose it is reasonable at this very early stage in the accident inquiry to not rush-to-judgment regarding deferred maintenance as the cause?
Speaking of jumping to conclusions, wasn't your initial reaction here that it had to be a train driver who ran a signal? Do you suppose it is reasonable at this very early stage in the accident inquiry to not rush-to-judgment regarding deferred maintenance as the cause?
Paul,
I offered that speculation early in the thread based on what was either inaccurate or unclear reporting in the media. See my post of March 24 which was the first comment on the story. Notice all of the qualifiers in that post.
As long as I have been in the biz, which was not as long as Balt but well over 30 years, I know better than to believe anything the media says about rail accidents, and to be very skeptical of the rest of what they say about everything else.
Mac:
I appreciate your respectful response to what "underfunded" means in the context of the NEC. Others comment with remarks, the tone in which they are offered insisting we are just to accept the authority of the person making them without extending the courtesy as to why we should accept a particular point of view.
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
BaltACD blue streak 1 Don't know why it is taking so long just a very few persons working on the problem ? ? ? https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/05/nyregion/train-tracks-amtrak-penn-station-derailment.html?_r=0 Guess they never heard of special track work. With all the slip switches and other CUSTOM MADE special track work that needs to be replaced - I suspect some of it has to be MANUFACTURED and shipped to the site to be able to fix the derailment damage. MofW in chronically underfunded operations keep a bare minimum of spares - suspect the spares got used in the 1st derailment and now there are no spares.
blue streak 1 Don't know why it is taking so long just a very few persons working on the problem ? ? ? https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/05/nyregion/train-tracks-amtrak-penn-station-derailment.html?_r=0
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/05/nyregion/train-tracks-amtrak-penn-station-derailment.html?_r=0
Guess they never heard of special track work. With all the slip switches and other CUSTOM MADE special track work that needs to be replaced - I suspect some of it has to be MANUFACTURED and shipped to the site to be able to fix the derailment damage.
MofW in chronically underfunded operations keep a bare minimum of spares - suspect the spares got used in the 1st derailment and now there are no spares.
BaltACD:
I think that "blue streak 1" was using mild sarcasm in asking "Don't know why it is taking so long . . .", especially in light of the link to the Times article.
I followed the link to the article; it appears to me that the Times reporter very much indeed heard of special track work -- upon interviewing officials from Amtrak and the transit agencies who know about such things. There is a very clear answer to "Why is this taking so long?" along with a photo showing the cramped working conditions for the repair crew along with trains still operating nearby.
For all of the shade thrown at the New York Times, especially by the political right, it appears that their reporters write very accurately, descriptively, and present potentially conflicting statements from the officials they interview in a balanced way. The Times reporter doesn't put "CUSTOM MADE" and "MANUFACTURED" in all caps either -- maybe that is a tradition at the New York Times that reporters get their point across without the written-word version of shouting at their readers.
The Amtrak representative was very careful to not jump to conclusions with an active investigation underway, but the reporter interviews people who indeed hint at the possibility that maintenance of an aging facility may be a factor.
Paul Milenkovic What does "underfunded" mean when the NEC is said to be the one portion of Amtrak with an operating ratio below 100%? The NEC turns a profit by whatever accounting method, a sparse network of long-distance trains is supported by cross-subsidy and appropriation from Congress, and the other corridor trains are at least in part supported by the individual states?
What does "underfunded" mean when the NEC is said to be the one portion of Amtrak with an operating ratio below 100%? The NEC turns a profit by whatever accounting method, a sparse network of long-distance trains is supported by cross-subsidy and appropriation from Congress, and the other corridor trains are at least in part supported by the individual states?
I am no supporter of ATK, except in the NEC where it does provide a usefull and competitive service.
Under funded as a term of railroad art means that all of the revenue streams are not adequate to support all of ATK's operations and to maintain the NEC to a standard of normalized maintenance sufficient to safely and reliably support the operating demands made on it.
Limiting our examination to the NEC, the vaunted "operating profit" is a political chimera. It does not cover equipment amortization, which is several times more than the "operating profit". I do not know how ATK accounts for the cost of "routine" track maintenance or program maintenance, which since ATK owns and maintains the fixed plant is in the range of at least $100,000,000 per year just for routine track maintenance. New tunnels and new bridges are capital expenditures in the billions.
If you look at Class I practices you will see that they tout this year's $X billion capital budget. Read more carefully and you will see that the majority of the capital budget goes for capitalized maintenace, which for the sake of simplicity we will say is large rail, tie, and ballast programs. They are accounted for as a capital investment in year zero, and then amortized (expensed) over the life of the asset. There are also pure expense items, like the wages of track inspectors. Expenses appear in the operating, not capital budget. At the shortline I worked for I always figured we expensed small quantities of rail and ties consumed in spot repair/replacement. We bought each of our three section gangs 1,000 ties per year for spot work as they saw fit, for example. This is all just maintenance of the existing capacity. New track, new cars, new locomotives, PTC, new computers and programs, and new or expanded Intermodal Terminals go in various OTHER Capex budgets.
Underfunded means that the MofW department does not get enough money to keep up with normal wear and tear of the fixed plant, regardless of whether funds are in capital budget or the expense budget. When your MofW department is underfunded trains fall into wide gauge in a switch in the station throat.
Underfunded also means that big, hunky bridge and tunnel capital projects do not get funded.
BaltACD Keep a organization underfunded for 45+ years and what do you get - deferred maintenance. Trying to get the last dollar's use out of everything and replacing it JUST before it fails. Play it that fine and you will have a few failures.
Keep a organization underfunded for 45+ years and what do you get - deferred maintenance. Trying to get the last dollar's use out of everything and replacing it JUST before it fails. Play it that fine and you will have a few failures.
You know that about this particular accident? Do you know that this terminal trackage is not getting regular and proper maintenance and this is not a condition that slipped by whatever tests and inspections are performed?
What does adequately funded mean in the context of Amtrak? Amtrak gets an appropriation from the Federal government, it gets payments from states, it charges fares that are by some measures competitive with other modes, and then it runs trains with that money. Were it to get more money, it would provide more train service, were it to receive less, it would run fewer trains. Is Amtrak mandated by Congress to run a number of trains not supportable with the appropriations they receive?
Were Amtrak to receive a higher, perhaps more consistent appropriation, would there not be an expectation that they run more train service, and then where are we with adequate maintenance? What does "underfunded" mean -- that we lack the political will to pay more money for the level of service Amtrak is providing?
I imagine part of the problem in Penn Station is maintaining drainage. Cross ties don't live very long when they are sitting in mud all the time.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Here's a map from a Penn Station blog that shows the affected area just to the west of the track 9/10 platform:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-GitH-lVG3yg/UxEYjbpegoI/AAAAAAAAA_U/MaodFknm1Qc/s1600/NYPall.jpg
Would imagine that it is not possible but if somehow a live feed of the NYPS track diagram and dispatcher's presentation could be put on Trains forum could be very interesting.
Also CHI, NOL, & LAX
To illustrate Balt's point, the shortline I once worked for made an agreement to lease a certain Class I's assets and provide service, inclding fixed plant maintenance. I was Chief Engineer, which was basically convincing the owner to spend the money to keep the property maintained in servicable condition.
There was an interchange track switch that we used at least twice a day to move 8-10 cars per trip over. Not big volume but critical to serving the customers on "that side". I agreed with the roadmaster that the switch needed work, virtually all of the ties replaced. We bought the switch ties and got the extra gang scheduled to do it. All would have been well except that THE DAY BEFORE the extra gang was to go to work, the crew derailed some cars on the switch. At least we had the material and labor headed that way anyway but it certainly cost more than if the ****ed cars had not derailed.
The interesting thing about these NYP derailments is whether or not Moorman will use them as an example of the high cost of patchwork maintenance. He also needs to get NJT and LIRR, who both put more trains into NYP than ATK does, to pay more for their access. He has a golden opportunity and it goes right back to his start in the business.
While I am not an ATK fan, the NEC does usefull work for both its customers and the larger economy. I hope he attacks!
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