March Issue page 6-7 News Photo has BrightLine being called the "first privately owned and operated intercity passenger train of the type last run by D&RGW..." This is not correct as BrightLine is a contract operator of the All Abroad Florida modern INTERURBAN train which will be run by non-union employees that will not be paying the Railroad Retirement Board and do not come under the Federal Railway Libility Act. This service is not being run as a railroad passenger train, it is a Interurban intrastate service. It is not like the Cressent or the California Zephyr.
Also, BrightLine being a interurban, only runs on an isolated line (seperated by GPS and signal system) which is between Miami and Coco Beach over the FEC. The caption is wrong trying to say that Jacksonville or MP 0 is home rails of BrightLine. Home rails are isolated interurban track that is south of Cocoa Beach. The freight railroad Florida East Coast is not home rails of BrightLine.
Brightline Florida uses locomotives and coaches that are Tier 1 49CFR238 compliant and run on the same tracks as FEC freight trains; they are heavy rail, not light rail nor interurban. Brightline employees are non-union and pay into and are covered by Railroad Retirement. Comparisons to the RGZ are a bit of a stretch.
Editor Emeritus, This Week at Amtrak
D.Carleton Brightline Florida uses locomotives and coaches that are Tier 1 49CFR238 compliant and run on the same tracks as FEC freight trains; they are heavy rail, not light rail nor interurban. Brightline employees are non-union and pay into and are covered by Railroad Retirement. Comparisons to the RGZ are a bit of a stretch.
D.Carleton Brightline Florida uses locomotives and coaches that are Tier 1 49CFR238 compliant and run on the same tracks as FEC freight trains; they are heavy rail, not light rail nor interurban. Brightline employees are non-union and pay into and are covered by Railroad Retirement. Comparisons to the RGZ are a bit of a stretch. BrightLine hiring presently taking place are telling new hires they will not be paying into the Federal Railroad Retirement system account they are an intrastate interurban system per the December 2015 ruling by the STB. They do not come under FELA because they do not work for a railroad. You can review the posting in TrainOrder.com for the details.
BrightLine hiring presently taking place are telling new hires they will not be paying into the Federal Railroad Retirement system account they are an intrastate interurban system per the December 2015 ruling by the STB. They do not come under FELA because they do not work for a railroad. You can review the posting in TrainOrder.com for the details.
http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,4133351,4138482#msg-4138482
Human resorces of All Abroad Florida confirm that Brightline will not pay into the Railroad Retirement System (RRB). They are a contractor and not a railroad. They are an iterurban and their employees will not be under FELA. This is not a railroad passenger train. They also will not hire FEC employees.
W COOKhttp://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,4133351,4138482#msg-4138482 Human resorces of All Abroad Florida confirm that Brightline will not pay into the Railroad Retirement System (RRB). They are a contractor and not a railroad. They are an iterurban and their employees will not be under FELA. This is not a railroad passenger train. They also will not hire FEC employees.
Nothing like legalisms defining a Duck as a Cat.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I went through the issue of RRRB or SSI with a Washington shortline that will remain nameless to protect the guilty.
The operation was set up before I got there in a marketing position and I got SSI since I supposidly worked for a contractor controlled by the same individual who controlled the railroad. A year or two into it the RRRB came in and said, no you can not do that and the owner paid a big chunk of taxes into RRB and I got credit for time worked, thankfully.
Stung, the owner had his car foreman create an independent car repair company, and a few of his MofW guys create and independent track repair company, with which the short line contracted. The short line was the prime customer of both independent companies.
To the best of my knowledge that stuck, that is they were no longer railroad employees and paid SSI. The problem was that while the railroad owner saved the 8-10% spread in taxes, Washington State captured most of it with their 7.5% sales tax, and the owner lost the total control he previously had.
That said I am 99.9% sure train and engine operating employees of brightline will be covered by RRRB and FELA. The balance perhaps not. I know nothing of Florida sales tax.
Mac
PNWRMNMI went through the issue of RRRB or SSI with a Washington shortline that will remain nameless to protect the guilty. The operation was set up before I got there in a marketing position and I got SSI since I supposidly worked for a contractor controlled by the same individual who controlled the railroad. A year or two into it the RRRB came in and said, no you can not do that and the owner paid a big chunk of taxes into RRB and I got credit for time worked, thankfully. Stung, the owner had his car foreman create an independent car repair company, and a few of his MofW guys create and independent track repair company, with which the short line contracted. The short line was the prime customer of both independent companies. To the best of my knowledge that stuck, that is they were no longer railroad employees and paid SSI. The problem was that while the railroad owner saved the 8-10% spread in taxes, Washington State captured most of it with their 7.5% sales tax, and the owner lost the total control he previously had. That said I am 99.9% sure train and engine operating employees of brightline will be covered by RRRB and FELA. The balance perhaps not. I know nothing of Florida sales tax. Mac
The Class 1's over the years have been doing their best to remove job catagories from RRB coverage - at CSX - Information Technology, Real Estate, Payroll and a number of other departments have been defined and placed under the coverage of SSI instead of RRB, how this has been legally accomplished I don't know - I don't play one on TV and I didn't get a JD from Holiday Inn Express.
I don't know if this applies to Executive level positions such as Presiden and CEO.
I do stand corrected: Brightline Florida employees are not currently paying into Railroad Retirement. They are, however, fulltime employees of the company and not working through a contractor.
BrightLine is in effect a contractor for All Abroad Florida. It doesen't mather, the service is not a railroad passenger train as it is an intrastate interurban service. If you read the 8 page Surface Board Ruling and also read the Commerce Clase of the US Constitution you will discover the Federal government only has jurisdiction over inTERstate and foreign commerce. AAF does not conduct any commerce or transportation of commerce. Passenger are not commerce, and per 150 years of the court rulings against/or by the trolley industry, there movements of passenger, mail, milk, railway express, and other small items, were not commerce and their operation never came under the Interstate Commerce Commission.
In this STB case of the All Abroad Florida, the Board saw and applied the US Constitution as justication for their ruling that the movements of passengers only, without interconnection to Amtrak or other railroad, ran on an isolated system (seperated by GPS and signals) and was not part of the system of interconnected lines of interstate commerce. It was totally inTRAstate and only comes under state laws. The Commerce clause says if it is not interstate commerce, it is Industry. The US Constutution does not have Federal rules over Industry, only States cover that. This is all back to the basics of understanding the US Constitution.
So if the FRA shows up at WPB, which they do on a regular basis, I can tell them to take a hike? I think we all know how that will end; not well. The train itself is built, maintained, operated and enforced to the Federal Law, 49CFR238: Railroads that operate intercity or commuter passenger train service on standard gage track which is part of the general railroad system of transportation. Staying within the boundaries of one state will not grant any relief from Federal regs. But what you are saying is the business side of the operation shall not be Federally Regulated. This is true...to a point; the ICC of old did set passenger train tariffs. However, as to the physical characteristics of the venture, it is a heavy rail passenger train with all the regs set in stone.
W COOK BrightLine is in effect a contractor for All Abroad Florida. It doesen't mather, the service is not a railroad passenger train as it is an intrastate interurban service. If you read the 8 page Surface Board Ruling and also read the Commerce Clase of the US Constitution you will discover the Federal government only has jurisdiction over inTERstate and foreign commerce. AAF does not conduct any commerce or transportation of commerce. Passenger are not commerce, and per 150 years of the court rulings against/or by the trolley industry, there movements of passenger, mail, milk, railway express, and other small items, were not commerce and their operation never came under the Interstate Commerce Commission. In this STB case of the All Abroad Florida, the Board saw and applied the US Constitution as justication for their ruling that the movements of passengers only, without interconnection to Amtrak or other railroad, ran on an isolated system (seperated by GPS and signals) and was not part of the system of interconnected lines of interstate commerce. It was totally inTRAstate and only comes under state laws. The Commerce clause says if it is not interstate commerce, it is Industry. The US Constutution does not have Federal rules over Industry, only States cover that. This is all back to the basics of understanding the US Constitution.
The key is prior case law rulings. You are far off the mark.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Please Mr. D. Carleton, You already put your foot in your mouth once in saying without knowledge the Brightline will pay the RRB which it will not. The size and weight of equipment is not a factor in the law of the US Constitution and the following copy of the STB ruling which I wish you will read as only 8 pages. Sorry I got the issue date wrong as it was December 21, 2012 which cleared AAF for proceeding with their low cost plan. STB Decision Docket No. FD 35680.https://www.apta.com/mc/legal/previous/2014/synopsis/Documents/All%20Aboard%20Florida.pdf
It very clearly explained what fits the FRA criteria of Section 3 exemption of Federal Jurisdiction, “Rapid Transit”. The Brightline also fits a Section #2 FRA Rules for exemption as account “insular”. In either case working down the FRA Exclusion list, once a match fits, stop, you do not proceed to Section 4 where grade crossings come into question. Grade crossings are not a part of the question process under Rapid Transit exemption from FRA jurisdiction. Trolleys, or Interburban crossing highways or waterways do not inflict them to being under FRA jurisdiction. The FRA is only involved over the FEC Freight tracks as they carry interstate commerce. Only the nature of the interstate or intrastate method of handling of commerce is part of the jurisdiction rules per the US. Constitution.
Your reply tells me you have never understood why the ICC and FRA do not have jurisdiction over Trolley, Interurban, verticals, cog RRs, subway, horsecars, log railroads, mine trams, etc. These do not come under Federal jurisdiction, and BrightLine is a Rapid Transit usually called an Interurban. Looks do not make it different from what the law calls it. As I said Train Magazine has been misled by looks. Brightline does not pay RRB and is not under FELA law.
There have been a few exceptions and change of their legal status. One being the Hudson & Manhatten RR built by the PRR and now known as the PATH. Many years they were a rapid transit, but in recent years the employees claimed and won status as a railroad, and came under RRB.;
Another was the rebirth of the White Pass and Yukon as a tourist railroad and no longer a freight hauler of foreign commerce, not paying into the RRB. But as the volume of the tourist train business greatly expanded, the employees made suit that they were still working for a commerce railroad. Rather than contesting the legal status, the WP&Y Co. paid up about $3 million to the RRB and have since coveres all tourist train employees under the Federal RR Retirement Board.
If your railroad handles interstate or foreign commerce and are connected to the interconnected national lines of Commerce, the RRB must be paid. Tourist trains are usually industry and not commerce.
The way to view BrightLine service in Florida is to compare it to the New Mexico's "Rail Runner Express" between Belen, Albuquerque, and Santa Fe.
The "Rail Runner Express" has diesel power, runs over the BNSF common-carrier freight lines in part which are also used by Amtrak, and it also uses non-union train crews, which does not pay into the Railroad Retirement Board, and does not come under FELA as it is a rapid transit, not a railroad passenger train.
We can olny hope BrightLine will carry more people and have a better fare recovery and maybe make money.
1. Please check your history. The Hudson and Manhattan was always a railroad legally. It was interstate, and the Newark service was through with the PRR, and half the employees and half the mu cars in the Newark service were PRR. Crews were kept separate, but the mu cars were mixed
Possibly when PATH took over, theywished to redefine the operation and the employees objected.
2. The case of the Brightline operating train employees may onmly be decided after revenue service starts.
Is it really that important whether it's a railroad or passenger carrier(the correct term really[interurban as Mr Cook would say]).
GERALD L MCFARLANE JR Is it really that important whether it's a railroad or passenger carrier(the correct term really[interurban as Mr Cook would say]).
Dave, If you would be kind enought to learn and read the STB ruling, it is only 7 pages, https://www.apta.com/mc/legal/previous/2014/synopsis/Documents/All%20Aboard%20Florida.pdf
you would learn that the case of AAF has been ruled by STB to be out of the STB jurisdiction per the law as it is not interstate commerce. There are no later ruling and the Brigtline company is already hiring and working employees without a union, and not paying into the RRB.
It is just like the "Rail Runner Express" in Santa Fe, NM, which by the way is still running. Do you call the Rail Runner Express a passenger train run by a railroad, or a rapid transit, interurban? RRE employees do not pay into the RRB and are not employed by the BNSF but run over their freight tracks.
Brightline is not a railroad passenger train or it would be operated by the FEC RR employees, union members and the AAF Company would pay the RRB Federal retirement insurance costs. You make me feel like I'm rubing salt into your wounds.
Dave,
If you would be kind enough to learn and read the STB ruling, it is only 7 pages,
https://www.apta.com/mc/legal/previous/2014/synopsis/Documents/All%20Aboard%20Florida.pdf
Brightline is not a railroad passenger train or it would be operated by the FEC RR employees, union members and the AAF Company would pay the RRB Federal retirement insurance costs. You make me feel like I'm rubbing salt into your wounds.
CSSHEGEWISCH GERALD L MCFARLANE JR Is it really that important whether it's a railroad or passenger carrier(the correct term really[interurban as Mr Cook would say]). It's all semantics. I have little faith in the longevity of this service. Consider the number of small airlines that came and went quickly after dereg, this won't last much longer.
I actually think it's a viable alternative, especially once they go all the way to Orlando International. Consider this, airfare to Miami is less expensive than Orlando(at least from certain areas of the country), if the additional cost of taking Brightline to Orlando saves money, it would be smart for people that want to visit the theme parks there to go via Miami...not that most people are smart when it comes to travelling though.
GERALD L MCFARLANE JR CSSHEGEWISCH GERALD L MCFARLANE JR Is it really that important whether it's a railroad or passenger carrier(the correct term really[interurban as Mr Cook would say]). It's all semantics. I have little faith in the longevity of this service. Consider the number of small airlines that came and went quickly after dereg, this won't last much longer. I actually think it's a viable alternative, especially once they go all the way to Orlando International. Consider this, airfare to Miami is less expensive than Orlando(at least from certain areas of the country), if the additional cost of taking Brightline to Orlando saves money, it would be smart for people that want to visit the theme parks there to go via Miami...not that most people are smart when it comes to travelling though.
One of the key points in the brightline business plan is to further develop this traffic by building more development on real estate around their stations.
It's going to be s win win situation for all stakeholders involved. Henry Flagler would have been impressed.
My impression is Mr. Cook is trying to build a case regarding union or non.
Folks, If you would be kind enough to learn and read the STB ruling, it is only 7 pages,
you would learn that the case of AAF has been ruled by STB to be out of the STB jurisdiction per the law as it is not interstate commerce. There are no later ruling and the Brightline company is already hiring and working employees without a union, and not paying into the RRB.
Brightline is not a railroad passenger train or it would be operated by the FEC RR employees, union members and the AAF Company would pay the RRB Federal retirement insurance costs. Don't care if union or non-union but should support the RRB. Point is status comes out of the way the US Constitution is written.
GERALD L MCFARLANE JR I actually think it's a viable alternative, especially once they go all the way to Orlando International. Consider this, airfare to Miami is less expensive than Orlando(at least from certain areas of the country), if the additional cost of taking Brightline to Orlando saves money, it would be smart for people that want to visit the theme parks there to go via Miami...not that most people are smart when it comes to travelling though.
What value to you place on your vacation time? Brightline is saying it will be a three hour trip between Miami and Orlando. Factor that in with the $140 ticket cost for the train makes your idea very expensive.
An "expensive model collector"
The original posting examined some of the proceedings preceding the current activity and, without intimate knowledge, made some conclusions that were shared with the group. (Of course, having intimate knowledge does not does not automatically mean one may draw the correct conclusion despite it sitting right in front of one's nose; that was my assumption and error.) For the record, Brightline is an intrastate train and as such the Surface Transportation Board declined up front to have any say in its operation or construction. In other words: 'NIMBYs, go bug someone else.'
Otherwise, Brightline is operated under the oversight of Federal Government in accordance with 49CFR238 (trainsets), 49CFR239 (safety plans), 49CFR229 (locomotives) and 49CFR228 (hours of service) to name few. None of this plays into their precluding railroad retirement or FELA.
n012944 GERALD L MCFARLANE JR I actually think it's a viable alternative, especially once they go all the way to Orlando International. Consider this, airfare to Miami is less expensive than Orlando(at least from certain areas of the country), if the additional cost of taking Brightline to Orlando saves money, it would be smart for people that want to visit the theme parks there to go via Miami...not that most people are smart when it comes to travelling though. What value to you place on your vacation time? Brightline is saying it will be a three hour trip between Miami and Orlando. Factor that in with the $140 ticket cost for the train makes your idea very expensive.
True. I can fly RT in two weeks to Orland on SWA for $324. Miami RT same days as cheap as $134.80 on Delta (most are 162.00 RT). If the train is $140 RT, not really worth the $60 savings, and few would choose to squander so much vacation time. If that is $280 RT, then nobody would make that choice.
The big market for the train is not folks flying to Miami for cheaper flights, it is people heading to Miami or Orlando for a combination of vacation events. It also has stops at the major resort towns and airports of West Palm Beach and Fort Lauderdale. You can't even count the number of high dollar resorts in these places. You can look at the Northeast Corridor to see how many people are happy to pay a lot more than the commuter train alternatives for more comfort, baggage and meal service, etc.
Miami is a key port for short cruises, often 7 days or less. Many of these cruises go to the Caribbean, Mexico, Panama, and are operated as family cruises by Disney and their ships. If you have a family in Florida for a Disney Cruise, you probably will also hit the Disney World attractions. These cruise ships hold 3000+ per cruise, so that alone starts a decent market the day before and after a cruise.
Others like Carnival (4-night cruises), Royal Caribbean (3-night cruises), Norwegian (3-night cruises), and MSC (7-night cruises) also operate all year out of Miami, thus 3-5000 cruise passengers a day in and out of Miami.
Will Brightline get them all? Certainly no, but they will get a significant part of the buisness through their tour packages. You can look at Alaska where the railroad gets as many as 300,000 passengers during their short cruise ship season (mid-May to Mid-September). Brightline will go a step further on gaining revenue by owning hotels, shopping centers at their stations, etc.
It is an interesting concept and only time will tell if the operating plan works financially.
Anything concerning Brightline should be under the Passenger Forum, not Transit.
Bartman- TN, your 100% correct. In addition port Canaveral in Melbourne/ coca Beach is home to Disney cruise as well caravel and Norwegian. There is going to be a lot of on line traffic. Plus it's going to serve the commuting community as well. right now if you are heading to downtown West Palm Beach or FL Lauderdale, you have to transfer to a city bus for the last lap. Brightline line will drop you off at a big beautiful new station downtown. A major plus especially since until open the cocoa to orlando line, they will only be running Mia -flt- wpb
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