"If there is, in fact, little or no perceived advantage from having 'national' through service as opposed to what can be achieved with interconnecting regionals, then the argument that the relatively small number of LD train riders are being excessively subsidized by Government losses is increasingly difficult to refute."
The highest earning corridor trains are those that travel the longest distances, such as the Palmetto (829 route miles) and the various Virginia extensions off the NEC. This is because one route can cover many overlapping city pairs, building volume.
By extension the PRIIA studies looked at converting the "Long Distance" trains into "Connected Corridors" aka short runs, strung in series between common terminals to cover a longer route and found the approach to lose more. Just think about it, NRPC cannot turn equipment quick enough and it costs a bit to do so and then passengers have to wait for the transfer. The US largly had shorter runs connecting at terminals prior to the 1920's through train improvements. There is a reason it was done, passengers wanted a through service.
My thoughts exactly. Many years ago I rode the Star and the Meteor in a round trip NYC to Florida, and the dining car was easily the best part of the ride. I'd never take a trip like that today without a decent diner car. I won't even go NYC to Montreal without decent food service.
Turning trains costs money. PC did the smart thing by rerouting all remaining Boston trains into Penn and combining them with Washington trains, using GG-1s thru Washington - New Haven. There is no reason whatsover that a thru high-speed train canot serve two or more corridors. The only reason for a problem with this is habitual lateness, and that problem must be cured anyway.
daveklepper Turning trains costs money. PC did the smart thing by rerouting all remaining Boston trains into Penn and combining them with Washington trains, using GG-1s thru Washington - New Haven. There is no reason whatsover that a thru high-speed train canot serve two or more corridors. The only reason for a problem with this is habitual lateness, and that problem must be cured anyway.
Very few modern trains need to be "turned" at terminals. If you were familiar with German practice for the last ~20 years you would realize trains are either double-ended or push-pull.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
I did not mean physically turning. On a subway train the operator takes time to walk from one end of the train to the other.
Turning a train is a common term for reversing direction at the end of run, independent of what happens physically.
Metra trains frequently flip at Chicago's Union Station in ten to fifteen minutes at rush hour. Thats unload 80-180 passengers and load 800+ passengers in the evening. Engineer has to walk from cab car back to locomotive. I've seen them do it in five minutes when the incoming train was delayed. Problem is getting off train with a carload of people cloging the platform waiting to board and claim their favorite seat. Not fun. There are plans I'm led to believe that AMTRAK has to remove the luggage platforms between some of the commuter tracks and widen the passenger platforms to "improve" the traffic flow.
While this is a Trains forum, a related commuter operation that complements transit operations is the SEABUS in Vancouver BC, an interesting operation with quick turnarounds. They take about 10-12 minutes for a crossing and can unload and load in 3-5 minutes. They have a scheduled trip every 15 minutes during rush hours. Bus routes, Skybus routes and the West Coast Express commuter trains terminate at the Vancouver terminal and most of the North Vancouver bus routes operate out of the North Vancouver transit hub which is located at the ferry terminal.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File%3ABurrard_Otter_SeaBus.JPG
Credit By ~riley (Own work) [CC BY-SA 3.0 (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0)], via Wikimedia Commons
It operates between Vancouver and North Vancouver and has six large doors on each side. When it arrives at its docking facility, all doors on one side open and all passengers exit, as the last passenger exits the six doors on the other side and the waiting load boards. These ferries hold 385 passengers and operate across a busy harbor. Catamaran design with four engines, they have a service reliability of 99.9%.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SeaBus
Early in Amtrak's history, the St. Louis and Milwaukee corridors were joined with thru trains. No need to turn at CUS. I wonder why they were discontinued.
MidlandMike Early in Amtrak's history, the St. Louis and Milwaukee corridors were joined with thru trains. No need to turn at CUS. I wonder why they were discontinued.
I expect it had something to do with state funding and the states taking more control of scheduling of each train. At this point the Chicago to St. Louis portion seems to be using exclusively Amfleet due to higher speed. Milwaukee to Chicago the Bombardier cars.
There was also the problem that CUS is basically designed as two stub-end terminals with only one platform and one track available for through trains.
daveklepper I did not mean physically turning. On a subway train the operator takes time to walk from one end of the train to the other. Turning a train is a common term for reversing direction at the end of run, independent of what happens physically.
Then why say it costs money, etc.? It is easy. Metra does it in Chicago, DB in Germany (ever watch or ride a through train stopping at Stuttgart Hauptbahnhof, a stub station? They are turned in 5 minures or less.) and many other places.
Electroliner 1935It operates between Vancouver and North Vancouver and has six large doors on each side. When it arrives at its docking facility, all doors on one side open and all passengers exit, as the last passenger exits the six doors on the other side and the waiting load boards.
Atlanta's MARTA subway did (I'm sure it still does) the same at some stations. Actually was a thing of beauty to watch. Granted, you need to have platforms on both sides.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
The train itself can be reversed very quickly if it doesn't have to be turned physically. After an intercity trip of several hours, though, the cars may have to be cleaned of litter and washrooms sanitized to improve the experience of the new passengers boarding. Water tanks may need to be topped up and perhaps additional supplies for the cafe car taken on board. That does take time, and the cleaning is best done while the cars are empty.
Rapid transit and commuter trains do turn rapidly, but by the end of the day it is apparent how slovenly some people are.
John
There are very unconfirmed reports that Amtrak may remove Heritage diners from the Crescent ? Running out of time and V-2s not yet coming ?
Well, it still had a diner today. Short turn consist seen sitting at Peachtree: Two P42s, two coaches, Lounge, diner, two sleepers, business class car, baggage. (note, only two coaches! Train during Christmas week had four.)
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
oltmannd Well, it still had a diner today. Short turn consist seen sitting at Peachtree: Two P42s, two coaches, Lounge, diner, two sleepers, business class car, baggage. (note, only two coaches! Train during Christmas week had four.)
2 Diesels, 8000 HP for 8 passenger cars?
I think it is time to bring back steam -- a Pacific could handle that on flatland, a Mountain or Northern over hills.
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
Paul Milenkovic oltmannd Well, it still had a diner today. Short turn consist seen sitting at Peachtree: Two P42s, two coaches, Lounge, diner, two sleepers, business class car, baggage. (note, only two coaches! Train during Christmas week had four.) 2 Diesels, 8000 HP for 8 passenger cars? I think it is time to bring back steam -- a Pacific could handle that on flatland, a Mountain or Northern over hills.
The Carolinian ran with 6 cars and a baggage over the holidays. One P42.
"The Carolinian ran with 6 cars and a baggage over the holidays. One P42."
Normally the Texas Eagle, which has eight cars - baggage plus seven superliners (transition sleeper, regular sleeper, diner, lounge, and three coaches), seemingly gets by nicely with one P42.
A non-statistical sample taken from Amtrak's September 2012 through 2016 performance reports indicates that approximately two percent of the delay minutes experienced by the Eagle were attributable to engine failure.
Through the first 11 months of 2016 1.7 percent of the delay minutes for the Eagle were attributable to engine failure.
Rio Grande Valley, CFI,CFII
JPS1"The Carolinian ran with 6 cars and a baggage over the holidays. One P42." Normally the Texas Eagle, which has eight cars - baggage plus seven superliners (transition sleeper, regular sleeper, diner, lounge, and three coaches), seemingly gets by nicely with one P42. A non-statistical sample taken from Amtrak's September 2012 through 2016 performance reports indicates that approximately two percent of the delay minutes experienced by the Eagle were attributable to engine failure. Through the first 11 months of 2016 1.7 percent of the delay minutes for the Eagle were attributable to engine failure.
The thing to remember about engine failure - even if the statistics say that it is not a common happening. When the engine dies - so does the train, until alternate arrangements can be made. Making those arrangements and getting the train moving again is normally in the multiple hour form of delay, to and including canceling the train and moving the passengers on busses.
At one point in time, the CSX/Amtrak contract called for 1 unit to handle 8 cars as an 'on time' operation. If the train was 1 unit and more than 8 cars additional time was alotted to CSX to attain On Time performance - my memory says that each additional car added an additional 5 minutes to the travel time between each check point. The contract has probably changed since then.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Great, you really mastered cost accounting. Too bad your servcie sucks so often. When you finish your experiments it will be all zeros. Then what?
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