On its 37-hour run between Chicago and Los Angeles, what were the enroute fueling stops for the Super Chief and El Capitan? Albuquerque was one, and I believe Kansas City was another.
RJ Emery near Santa Fe, NM
Most likely La Junta and Barstow
More,http://www.shorpy.com/node/83?size=_original#captionHeadlight shroud. Bell by Horns, and more, much more.Thank You
Wow, look at those old cars and trucks next to the tank cars.
daveklepperMost likely La Junta and Barstow
rjemery Guess this pretty much wraps up this thread.
Guess this pretty much wraps up this thread.
Don't be too hasty...
Since the AT&SF used steam ejector A/C, and considering that the A/C could consume 400lb/hr per car of steam (50 gal/hr of water), the fueling stops almost certainly involved watering as well.
- Erik
Looks like they are injecting compressed air into the top of those tank cars (red hoses) to push the fuel out the bottom valves. I think that is interesting.
Two hoses each loco. 1= fuel 1= water. An indication of how often water needed for diesels may be found from :: The N&W / SOU RR trains used to add water in Monroe, Va , Bristol, Va, Knoxville, Chattanooga, Birmingham.
http://www.shorpy.com/node/83?size=_original#caption
blue streak 1Two hoses each loco. 1= fuel 1= water. An indication of how often water needed for diesels may be found from :: The N&W / SOU RR trains used to add water in Monroe, Va , Bristol, Va, Knoxville, Chattanooga, Birmingham. http://www.shorpy.com/node/83?size=_original#caption
Being unable to trace the origin of the hoses - I suspect 1 tank car supplies fuel and the other supplies water.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
rjemery, et.al
I still have the Santa Fe timetable for Spring Summer 1967 which gives the following stops for the Super Chief - El Capitan. The two trains ran on the same schedule with the Chief being all Pullman sleeping cars and the El Capitain all coach. Both trains were "extra fare" travel.
Departure - Chicago on Central Time was -------------- 6:30 PM - day 1
Arrival - Kansas City, MO - 449 miles was -------------- 1:55 AM - day 2
Departure - Kansas City, MO ---------------------------- 2:05 AM - day 2
Arrival - Dodge City, KAS - 787 miles - Central time -- 7:15 AM - day 2
Departure - Dodge City, KAS - Mountain time --------- 6:18 AM - day 2
Arrival - La Junta, CO - 990 miles ---------------------- 9:00 AM - day 2
Departure - La Junta, CO ------------------------------- 9:20 AM - day 2
Arrival - Albuquerque, NM - 1335 miles --------------- 5:00 PM - day 2
Leave - Albuquerque, NM ------------------------------- 5:10 PM - day 2
Arrival - Needles, CA - 1914 miles - Pacific Time ---- 2:00 AM - day 3
Leave - Needles, CA - Pacific Time -------------------- 2:05 AM - day 3
Arrival - Barstow, CA - 2081 miles -------------------- 5:00 AM - day 3
Departure - Barstow, CA ------------------------------- 5:10 AM - day 3
Arrival - Los Angeles - 2222 miles -------------------- 9:00 AM - day 3
----------------
Reviewing this trip - Six stops to the west coast were scheduled. Chicago departure was in the 6:30 PM in the evening with 450 miles until the first layover at Kansas City, MO which was 10 minutes.
The trip to Dodge City, KAS was 239 miles and the second layover at Dodge City was 3 minutes with time zone change from Central to Mountain moving watches back one hour.
The trip to La Junta, CO was 541 miles and the third layover was 10 minutes.
The trip to Albuquerque, NM was 345 miles and the fourth layover there was 10 minutes.
The trip to Needles, CA was 579 miles and the fifth layover there was 5 minutes.
The trip to Barstow, CA was 167 miles and the sixth layover there was 10 minutes.
The run into Los Angeles CA in the morning was 141 miles with arrival at 9:00 AM Pacific Time watches set behind in the night at Needles, CA or upon waking. Sleeping car porter would remind you if necessary.
------------------------
Total trip running was 2222 miles with evening departure the first day and one full second day on the train with arrival in the AM of the third day.
The Pullman porter would make up the bed - berth - anytime but usually in the evening leaving Chicago and the morning of the second day. He would make up the berth again the evening of the second day. Arrival in Los Angeles the morning of the third day usually precluded this again.
Drinks were available in the lounge and meals on china with linen and silverwear in the dining car - seating at request of the steward who wore gloves and tails. The vista dome was available anytime. A writing desk and dictation equipment were also provided in the dome car where regular reports of the stock market were available - cell phones were not invented yet. TV was not available but radio was available in the Pullman car and magazines and newspapers were also available in the lounge and provided at breakfast each morning.
I still have a "daily weather report" typed up on railroad stationary and included with my moring newspaper in my Pullman compartment.
Except for posted mail, and short of recieving a telegram at one of the station stops, you were out of touch with the world and the scenery was the best - highways and byways of America and all the backyards and industrial settings also - open range and mountain pass everywhere people lived or did not live - just the railroad.
The train moved constantly you could get off at the station stops and walk around the platform only for moments. Pets could be shipped in the baggage car or carried aboard the Pullman compartments - dogs could come aboard leashed if muzzled. You could buy native American souviners at the station stop in Albuquerque, New Mexico but it was only a 10 minute stop - and they didn't like to wait.
And yah the Pullman porter shined your shoes every night if you put them in the special wall box located in your Pullman room compartment.
------------
Doc
ORNHOOIs the man in the engineer's cap by the corner of 100563 smoking a cigarette during refueling? And, is the headlight shrouded to comply with wartime blackout rules?
I complained about that in the Army once and the guy smoking on the back of the Diesel fuel truck dropped his lit cigarette into the tanker holding Diesel Fuel just to be a jerk but to demonstrate that Diesel has a high ignition point and a lit cigarette typically will not ignite it.
Using the 1938 "Super Chief" timetable for distances it looks like fuel stops were made about every 400 miles. This is reasonable considering the relatively tiny 1200 gallon tanks the Super Chief's diesels carried. Translating the distance into refueling stops gets:
Kansas City 451.1
La Junta 991.7 (440.6)
Albuquerque 1338.1 (346.4 - with Raton and Glorieta Pass)
Winslow 1627.1 (299.0)
Barstow 2086.4 (459.3)
Los Angeles 2227.3 (140.9)
None of them are long stops, averaging about 7 minutes. All of them were regular crew change points.
rcdrye Using the 1938 "Super Chief" timetable for distances it looks like fuel stops were made about every 400 miles. This is reasonable considering the relatively tiny 1200 gallon tanks the Super Chief's diesels carried. Translating the distance into refueling stops gets: Kansas City 451.1 La Junta 991.7 (440.6) Albuquerque 1338.1 (346.4 - with Raton and Glorieta Pass) Winslow 1627.1 (299.0) Barstow 2086.4 (459.3) Los Angeles 2227.3 (140.9) None of them are long stops, averaging about 7 minutes. All of them were regular crew change points.
Your 1938 TT and Doc's 1967 TT seem quite different in terms of stops.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Dr D rjemery, et.al I still have the Santa Fe timetable for Spring Summer 1967 which gives the following stops for the Super Chief - El Capitan. The two trains ran on the same schedule with the Chief being all Pullman sleeping cars and the El Capitain all coach. Both trains were "extra fare" travel. Departure - Chicago on Central Time was -------------- 6:30 PM - day 1 Arrival - Kansas City, MO - 449 miles was -------------- 1:55 AM - day 2 Departure - Kansas City, MO ---------------------------- 2:05 AM - day 2 Arrival - Dodge City, KAS - 787 miles - Central time -- 7:15 AM - day 2 Departure - Dodge City, KAS - Mountain time --------- 6:18 AM - day 2 Arrival - La Junta, CO - 990 miles ---------------------- 9:00 AM - day 2 Departure - La Junta, CO ------------------------------- 9:20 AM - day 2 Arrival - Albuquerque, NM - 1335 miles --------------- 5:00 PM - day 2 Leave - Albuquerque, NM ------------------------------- 5:10 PM - day 2 Arrival - Williams, Jct, AZ - 1711 miles ---------------- 11:30 PM - day 2 Leave - Williams, Jct, AZ ------------------------------- 11:35 PM - day 2 Arrival - Los Angeles - 2222 miles - Pacific Time ----- 9:00 AM - day 3 ---------------- Reviewing this trip - Five stops to the west coast were scheduled. Chicago departure was in the 6:30 PM in the evening with 450 miles until the first layover at Kansas City, MO which was 10 minutes. The trip to Dodge City, KAS was 239 miles and the second layover at Dodge City was 3 minutes with time zone change from Central to Mountain moving watches ahead one hour. The trip to La Junta, CO was 541 miles and the third layover was 10 minutes. The trip to Albuquerque, NM was 345 miles and the fourth layover there was 10 minutes. The trip to Williams Jct. AZ was 376 miles and the fifth layover there was 5 minutes. The run into Los Angeles CA in the morning was 511 miles with arrival at 9:00 AM Pacific Time watches set ahead in the night or upon waking. Sleeping car porter would remind you if necessary. ------------------------ Total trip running was 2222 miles with evening departure the first day and one full second day on the train with arrival in the AM of the third day. The Pullman porter would make up the bed - berth - the evening leaving Chicago and the morning of the second day. He would make up the berth the evening of the second day. Drinks were available in the lounge and meals on china with linen and silverwear in the dining car - seating at request of the steward who wore gloves and tails. The vista dome was available anytime. A writing desk and telephone service were also provided - cell phones were not invented yet. Radio was available in the Pullman car and a library was on board the train. Newspapers were also available in the lounge and provided at breakfast each morning. Short of a telegram you were out of touch with the world and the scenery was the best - highways and byways of America and all the backyards and industrial settings also - open range and mountain pass everywhere people lived or did not live - just the railroad. The train moved constantly you could get off at the station stops and walk around the platform only for moments. Pets could be shipped in the baggage car or carried aboard the Pullman compartments - dogs could come aboard leashed if muzzled. You could buy native American souviners at the station stop in Albuquerque, New Mexico but it was only a 10 minute stop - and they didn't like to wait. And yah the Pullman porter shined your shoes every night if you put them in the special wall box located in your Pullman room compartment. ------------ Doc
Arrival - Williams, Jct, AZ - 1711 miles ---------------- 11:30 PM - day 2
Leave - Williams, Jct, AZ ------------------------------- 11:35 PM - day 2
Arrival - Los Angeles - 2222 miles - Pacific Time ----- 9:00 AM - day 3
Reviewing this trip - Five stops to the west coast were scheduled. Chicago departure was in the 6:30 PM in the evening with 450 miles until the first layover at Kansas City, MO which was 10 minutes.
The trip to Dodge City, KAS was 239 miles and the second layover at Dodge City was 3 minutes with time zone change from Central to Mountain moving watches ahead one hour.
The trip to Williams Jct. AZ was 376 miles and the fifth layover there was 5 minutes.
The run into Los Angeles CA in the morning was 511 miles with arrival at 9:00 AM Pacific Time watches set ahead in the night or upon waking. Sleeping car porter would remind you if necessary.
The Pullman porter would make up the bed - berth - the evening leaving Chicago and the morning of the second day. He would make up the berth the evening of the second day.
Drinks were available in the lounge and meals on china with linen and silverwear in the dining car - seating at request of the steward who wore gloves and tails. The vista dome was available anytime. A writing desk and telephone service were also provided - cell phones were not invented yet. Radio was available in the Pullman car and a library was on board the train. Newspapers were also available in the lounge and provided at breakfast each morning.
Short of a telegram you were out of touch with the world and the scenery was the best - highways and byways of America and all the backyards and industrial settings also - open range and mountain pass everywhere people lived or did not live - just the railroad.
Johnny
This is interesting. Someone needs to look at the diagram for one of these Es to see which fills correspond to which hoses.
I think both tank cars are fuel only (and are in parallel, one per locomotive). They are pressurized just like NASCAR stops to give the necessary speed (you can rapidly see that gravity feed from a tank car to the fill point on the E unit would not give the indicated "5 minute" service time without considerable power assist, and machine pumps would require cost over what would be required for compressed air.)
I note that the 'sheen' under the "water" fill on the lead engine is similar to the spill under the two diesel hoses, and that the rearmost hoses on both units come from square boxes rather than something like a standpipe (the one to the forward engine is largely hidden by the surroundings, but I think you can make it out). I'd be inclined to think these are lube oil rather than water.
I do concur that water service would almost have to be involved at some of these stops, and it would be interesting to see how the necessary flow was arranged for (with pressure connections at the locomotives).
blue streak 1 Two hoses each loco. 1= fuel 1= water. An indication of how often water needed for diesels may be found from :: The N&W / SOU RR trains used to add water in Monroe, Va , Bristol, Va, Knoxville, Chattanooga, Birmingham. http://www.shorpy.com/node/83?size=_original#caption
Another interesting element of the picture - the lead engine has footboards attached to the pilot. One normally only sees footboards on yard engines in my experience.
From front to back on the two E1s are water, fuel, water, fuel. The E1A had the water tank below the cab. The B unit had the tank at the end opposite the S/G.
rcdrye From front to back on the two E1s are water, fuel, water, fuel. The E1A had the water tank below the cab. The B unit had the tank at the end opposite the S/G.
I suppose it would be common knowledge that the water use of diesel electric locomotives was for the steam heating of the trains. Most passenger consists having been heated by steam locomotives. When the diesel took over designers installed water heating equipment needed to supply existing steam passenger equipment systems.
-------------------
Regarding the scheduled passenger train stops in the 1967 Passenger Time Table of the Santa Fe Railroad - 6 stops were "listed passenger stops" for customer traffic to boarding and exiting the train. Likely other service stops could have been made and listed in Employee Time Tables.
Calculating the overall distance and time traveled between scheduled stops might show additional service times.
Reviewing the Super Chief schedule -
Chicago to Kansas City, MO was 450 miles with a running time from 6:30 PM to 1:55 AM. This is 7 hours 20 minutes to cover 450 miles.
10 minutes layover.
Kansas City, MO to Dodge City, KAS was 787 miles with a running time from 2:05 AM to 7:15 AM. This is 5 hours 10 minutes to cover 449 miles.
3 minute layover.
Dodge City, KAS (departure Mountain Time Change) to La Junta, CO with a running time from 6:18 AM to 9:00 AM. This is 2 hours 40 minutes to cover 203 miles.
20 minute layover.
La Junita, CO to Albuquerque, NM with running time from 9:20 AM 5:00 PM. This is 7 hours 40 minutes to cover 345 miles.
10 minute layover.
Albuquerque, NM to Needles, CA (Pacific Time Arrival) with a running time from 5:00PM to 2:00 AM. This is 10 hours running time to cover 579 miles.
Layover 5 minutes.
Needles, CA to Barstow, CA with a running time from 2:00 AM to 5:00 AM. This is 2 hours 55 minutes running time to cover 167 miles.
Barstow, CA to Los Angeles, CA with running time from 5:10 AM to 9:00 AM. This is 3 hours 50 minutes running time to cover 141 miles.
--------------------------
To summarize -
First leg of trip - 7 hours 20 minuts to cover 450 miles.
Second leg of trip - 5 hours 10 minutes to cover 449 miles.
Third leg of trip - 2 hours 40 minutes to cover 203 miles.
Fourth leg of trip - 7 hours 40 minutes to cover 345 miles.
Fifth leg of trip - 10 hours to cover 579 miles.
Sixth leg of trip - 3 hours 50 minutes to cover 141 miles.
-------------
From the look of the time usage I would assume several other stops.
--------------
I also noted a pre Handicap Persons Law - railroad policy regarding wheelchairs and boarding the trains -
INVALIDS OR DISABLED PERSONS will not be permitted to occupy wheel or invalid chairs, or cots, or stretchers while traveling in chair car, Pullman sleeping car, or baggage car. Such conveyances may be used to assist in taking invalid or disabled persons into and out of train, if such passengers will occupy regular accommodations and are accompanied by attendant holding transportation who will take care of them enroute, also entering and leaving the train. Wheel chair, cot or stretcher will be handled in baggage car and included in weight and value of passenger baggage allowance.
WHEEL CHAIRS AVAILABLE AT MAJOR STATIONS. Ask Santa Fe personel on duty for assistance with this service.
-----------------
Also found several dinner menu from the dining car - the two days menu was not the same - what was for dinner the first day was different the second day!
Super Chief Champagne Dinner
pascal celery ------ Queen Olives
choice of appetizer
Charcoal Broiled Salmon Steak, Anchovey Butter - $ 4.40
Omelette with Stewed Fresh Blueberries Confiture - $ 3.95
Spring Chicken Saute, Marengo --------------------- $ 4.80
London Mixed Grill ----------------------------------- $ 5.70
Charcoal Broiled Sirloin Steak ----------------------- $ 6.95
Mashed Potatoes ------- Fresh String Beans with Almonds
Lyonnaise Potatoes ---- Cauiflower Polonaise
Shiffonade Salad
Dinner Rolls
Choise of Deserts and Beverage
(An extra charge of fifty cents will be made for each meal served outside of Dining Car. Prices shown on this menu are subject to various state, occupation expense, school and sales taxes.)
Note: When desired your steward will arrange special diet, or will quote a la carte prices for individual items listed on this menu.
Well "don't that put the fat in the fire" 1960's style!
Dr DI suppose it would be common knowledge that the water use of diesel electric locomotives was for the steam heating of the trains.
Doc, with specific reference to the Super Chief you need to research the happy world of steam-ejector air conditioning. It will open your eyes!
(Or see p.411 in White's book on the American railroad passenger car, vol. 2, and the accompanying discussion.)
Dr D, the line from Dodge City to LaJunta was in the wide open Arkansas Valley where there were 105 mph stretches. LaJunta to Albuquerque was over Raton Pass and Glorieta Pass, both 3% or greater. Also could some of the fueling stops be in yard facilities rather than station stops?
RME Dr D I suppose it would be common knowledge that the water use of diesel electric locomotives was for the steam heating of the trains. Doc, with specific reference to the Super Chief you need to research the happy world of steam-ejector air conditioning. It will open your eyes! (Or see p.411 in White's book on the American railroad passenger car, vol. 2, and the accompanying discussion.)
Dr D
I suppose it would be common knowledge that the water use of diesel electric locomotives was for the steam heating of the trains.
Yet another reference for steam ejector cooling is the January 1917 issue of The Electric Journal which goes a bit into the history, theory and applications for steam ejector cooling. A couple of tidbits from the article is to plan for 34lb/hr of steam per ton of cooling with a 50F temp delta and that it doesn't make sense for small installations. The system does require a bit of mechanical power to pump out the condensed water and air that leaks into the system.
Some interesting technical highlights, the steam nozzles are of the De Laval type (i.e. converging/diverging as in nozzles for rocket engines), so the steam is flowing supersonically as it leaves the nozzle. This keeps the steam and entrained water vapor from flowing back to the evaporator. The steam vapor mixture then flows into a converging/diverging diffuser to slow down the mixture and increase pressure much the same way the air intake on a supersonic airplane, particularly the ones that fly faster than Mach 2.0.
They used to fuel and water at Ft. Madison, IA, west of the station at Shopton. Once the current station was built by the yard, they did the servicing during the station stop. The ATS transponders were added and removed from units during the servicing as well.
Regarding the "San Francisco Chief," I concur that the train was refueled at Belen. I rode it westbound in 1970 and got off at Belen to walk around and take pictures. I don't specifically recall the engines being refuelled, but I did walk forward and take a photo of the power. (If someone can tell me how to upload it, I will do so.) The photo shows what look like fuel hoses lying on the platform next to the engines, and two hard-hatted workmen on the platform -- thus I conclude that refueling did indeed take place.
bcrnfanThe ATS transponders were added and removed from units during the servicing as well.
Why were the transponders (I assume you are referring to the Pick up Coils that match up with the trackside "SHOE") that are mounted on the lead truck, be added/removed. Why didn't they stay with the locomotive?
Electroliner 1935 bcrnfan Why were the transponders (I assume you are referring to the Pick up Coils that match up with the trackside "SHOE") that are mounted on the lead truck, be added/removed. Why didn't they stay with the locomotive?
bcrnfan
I suspect the ATS detector equipment remained with the locomotives for their entire trips. What may have been observed was the testing of the equipment before venturing into territory where its use is required. ATS is very much more than just the detector shoe that is visible in the exterior. Installing and removing the equipment for each pass would most likely not have the equipment in the proper state of alignment.
I don't know ATSF procedures, however, I suspect they would have had 'protect' engines available at ATS origin locations to insure that a working locomotive was available incase the one on the train failed the ATS test and the equipment couldn't be repaired.
This is interesting because, if I understand correctly, this is only the 'stop' adjacent to Shopton (where one would expect ATS maintenance to be conducted).
I suppose it is possible that the source is confusing the testing of the ATS (which iirc was done with a coil on a handle, a bit like a metal detector, rather than a fixed permanent magnet) with physical installation and removal of the pickup coils on the trucks (which would go along with the locomotive). It's possible that locomotives with defective ATS might be sent out from Chicago to be repaired 'closest to Shopton', or locomotives coming from the West that had suffered an ATC failure would be repaired there rather than cut off the train and another cab substituted, and that in both cases "speed would be of the essence". But without some clarification and, ideally, supporting photos or materials, I can't tell.
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