No if you are Jewish you would still have to walk to synagoge even if there is a subway and or light rail. See this all the time in Buffalo NY on Hertel Ave which has light rail, Bus and Bikeway.
Isn't "Modern Orthodox" an oxymoron?
Electroliner 1935 Isn't "Modern Orthodox" an oxymoron?
Johnny
I once saw a "Progressive Primitive" Baptist church off US-58 in Virginia once.
'Modern Orthodox" generally refers to Orthodox Jews that attempt to obey all that tradition requires but still dress, work, and generally live like the surrounding population. The others try to live traditional lives and dress traditionally like their ancestors, either Europe or the Mediteranian countries. In the USA, Canada, and Europe, but not in Israel, many modern Orthodox will wear a yarmulke only in Synagogue, home, and Kosher restaurant.
Rabbi Marc Angel was my primary New York rabbi and teacher. He said, "David, you can certainly carry a subway token in your back pocket, and if the heavens open up, use it." This was in reference to my
Sabbath walk from 16th Street and Third Avenue to the fifth building, now about 125 years old itself, of North America's first Jewish congregation, formed in New Amsterdam in 1654, at 70th Street and Cenetral Park West. Rabbi Cardoza in Israel and Rabbi Angel New York are very good friends and on occasion visit each other's schools.
Electroliner 1935Isn't "Modern Orthodox" an oxymoron?
In my opinion, not at all. You can follow the dictates of the Eternal (the wishes of the Eternal in Protestant Christianity) and still be 'modern' in all other respects.
I cannot, however, quite figure out (either in Torah or Talmud) how working to build a railway could possibly count as permissible Sabbath activity in any strict Orthodox sense. (Perhaps if the only purpose of the railway were to bring worshipers to temple who would not otherwise go ... but even then, the mitzvah would be in the driving, not in the building, no?)
If I recall correctly, one of the points of irritation the Orthodox community in Los Angeles expressed polemically, concerning Jesus Christ as Mosiach, was the Biblical account of 'the Sabbath was made for man'. If harvesting food for the hungry or poor is not permissible in Orthodoxy, how much less is working 'down upon the railway'?
Actually, Orthodox Judaism is a label that doesn't make sense that is specific to America, and I believe that in Israel, they don't use it.
From Greek, orthos means "straight" and doxha means "glory" -- this is translated to pravoslavni in Serbian (slava is glory). To say that someone is Orthodox (or Pravoslavni) means they are Christian, and worshiping in the "correct" way.
I went to a public lecture by the Bishop of North America for the Coptic (Oriental Orthodox) faith. This was sponsored by an engineering colleague who is from Egypt. The Bishop explained that they trace their faith community back to the 1st Century, and that their's is one of the communities ringing the Eastern Mediterranean from that include Alexandria, Jerusalem, and Ephesus (Anatolia or West-Coast Turkey).
Of the established Christian communities and traditions, there were some deemed to be heresies, and the people who "won the argument" got to call themselves Orthodox. So Orthodox is the original "P.C." but applied to the Christian religion.
Furthermore, Christianity arguably supports the principle of Separation of Church and State from the "render unto Caeser those things that are Caeser's." Actually, the ancient Jewish State had a king for secular authority and a prophet for religious authority, many times the king just went ahead and did things that the prophet preached against but the king did anyone, and the king and the people accepted the consequences.
If Mr. Netanyahu insisted "we must work on Saturday to complete the rail line for state security reasons" and some rabbis criticized him as violating a crucial Commandment of Jewish faith expression, and the "modernist" newspaper editors criticised "those religious extremists", that would be the proper state of affairs.
For a rabbi to generate excuses as why it is OK to conduct construction on the Sabbath, well, I don't know. Sometimes you have to accept the contradiction that something is a violation and the people in authority are doing it anyway and accept the just and righteous punishment that happens. For a rabbi to say that it really isn't breaking the Commandment is disruptive to the faithful in the way that Mr. Netanyahu and his Cabinet doing it anyway isn't.
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
á½€ρθοδοξία, orthodoxia = an adherence to accepted and traditional beliefs, creeds or views. From orthodox, ortho = straight or true; doxa = opinion.
Briefly, the various Orthodox Christian churches (Greek, Russian, Coptic, Oriental, etc.), generally referred to as the Eastern Church are a consequence of The Great Schism of 1054, in which Christianity split into an Eastern Church centered in Constantinople and a Western Church centered in Rome, which later became the (Roman) Catholic Church.
Orthodox Judaism is an entirely different matter.
The struggle between the concept of a secular state and a theocracy has a long and often bloody history, including most major faiths.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
I would not expect a reply from DaveKlepper untill after the Sabbath aka Shabbat is over. Matter of fact I probaly should not be on here either.
CandOforprogress2 I would not expect a reply from DaveKlepper untill after the Sabbath aka Shabbat is over. Matter of fact I probaly should not be on here either.
We won't argue.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
None of these fine doctrinal points has a place in secular governance, the only kind that has held out hope for mankind since the Declaration and Bill of Rights.
For the other kind, see Islam, Sharia Law and the replay of the Crusades we're engaged in today.
Many countries border between secular and religious. The Queen or King of the British Commonwealth must be a member of the Anglican (and Episcopalian) Communion. Only an Anglican clergyman can publicly criticize the concept of Trinity. A`Jew is prohibited from doing so unless in a synagogue. Netanyahu defines himself as a mostly Secular Jew. While it is certainly possible that a Muslim or Christian or Druze could be elected Prime Minister or President of Israel (no law against it), it is extremely unlikely. In deferene to the religious, Muslims as well as Orthodox Jews, pork is not raised or sold. But although Netanyahu is careful to don a yarmjulke when attending any State occasion that involves prayer, as well as visiting Orthodox Jews, synagogues, Kosher restaurants,etc., he definest himself as mostly secular. Freedom of worship is protected, and there are even a few "Messianic" synagogue-churches for Jews who have converted to Christianity. The World Center of the Bahai Church is in Haifa!
The USA was founded on the principal of freedom of religion, and most Colonial era immigrants were escaping religious persecution. Freedom to vote actually came later. This was not important to USA political leadership during the post-WWII era, when the whole economiy was hitched to highway transportation, car sales, and cheap imported oil. This blind spot continues today with the current Administration that early-on replaced Mururak with Morsi and his Muslim Brotherhood, with the "Arab Spring" supposed to bring in Democracy but brought in a horrible nightmare for Christian Cops. But all administrations were guilty, not just the latest. Replacing the Shah with Ayatollas. Blindness to Saudi involvement in Pentagon-World -Trade-Center. I have been arguing against this for possibly 70 years of my 84; and this, to me, goes hand-in-hand with favoring public (electric where economically feasible) transportation vs. private.
I applaud Rabbi Cardoza for raising the issue, but he is known for his toung-in-cheek statements, and I am certain the idea will not be implemented . In Israel as well as the USA rabbis do not police what happens in private homes, and there are many Israelis who attend synagogue regularly but will happily attend a soccer (football in Israel) match on the afernoon of the Sabbath. After attending Sabbath prayer at a San Diego Orthodox synaggue, I had a conversation with a man who drove in from Tijuana. But the rabbis and leaders and teachers of the congregations are expected to be thoroughly observant.
Public ground transportation in Israel is restricted to the Arab lines, the main Egged routes in Haifa only, and specific shared taxi and van operations. But some maintenance work does take place even on the railways and elsewhere.
The largest group of Orthodox Rabbis belong to what is generally referred to as the "OU," with the label used for Kosher certification, and standing for Orthodox Union. Some don't like the label "Modern Orthodox," calling themselves just Orthodox and those that dress traditionally and live separate from the community at large as "Ultra Orthodox." In Israel that latter are often referred to as "HaRedim" or the Fearers, those that fear, and those that blend into the general population as "Dati Leeoomi," literally religious patriots, or usually translated as Religious Zionists.
THANKS FOR THE POSTING OF MY NEW YORK SYNAGOGUE'S PICTURE!
daveklepperOnly an Anglican clergyman can publicly criticize the concept of Trinity. A`Jew is prohibited from doing so unless in a synagogue.
What are you saying?
daveklepperThe USA was founded on the principal of freedom of religion, and most Colonial era immigrants were escaping religious persecution. Freedom to vote actually came later. This was not important to USA political leadership during the post-WWII era, when the whole economiy was hitched to highway transportation, car sales, and cheap imported oil.
Again, what are you trying to say? Much of the above is only partially factual, if that.
Associated Press, Sept. 4
JERUSALEM — Israeli commuters began their work week Sunday with massive traffic jams and a cancellation of train service along one of the country's busiest routes following a religious and political scuffle that had threatened to shake the governing coalition.
The crisis erupted over the weekend after Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, under pressure from ultra-Orthodox coalition partners, made an 11th-hour decision to halt routine railway repairs scheduled on Saturday, the Jewish Sabbath.
Orthodox Jewish law forbids work on the Sabbath, and a religious party in the coalition had threatened to quit the government unless Netanyahu halted the repairs.
Netanyahu's transport minister, Yisrael Katz, canceled a key train route on the Tel Aviv - Haifa line Sunday because of the delayed repairs. The government dispatched extra buses for some 90,000 affected commuters.
The resulting traffic jams offered a physical illustration of the outsized power the leadership of the ultra-Orthodox Jewish minority wields in Israeli politics.
Ultra-Orthodox Jewish politicians offer Netanyahu support to stabilize his coalition, while the government carves out large budgets for ultra-Orthodox schools and seminaries. Recent reforms aimed at forcing religious youths to enlist for army service, which is compulsory for most other Jewish Israelis, have been scrapped.
Netanyahu's office accused Katz, a senior figure in the ruling Likud Party, of orchestrating the crisis to undercut the prime minister.
"Ministers are appointed to avoid crises and solve problems, not to create them," Netanyahu said at the start of his Cabinet meeting, with Katz sitting next to him.
Katz and Netanyahu's close relationship tanked last month when Katz, chairman of the Likud secretariat, held a vote to revoke some powers from Netanyahu to prevent him from being able to unilaterally appoint supporters to party positions.
That political drama dovetailed with ultra-Orthodox politicians' complaints about Sabbath train repairs.
Train maintenance work has long taken place on the Sabbath, without drawing the ire of the ultra-Orthodox. According to Israeli law, repairs may take place on the Sabbath if performing the repairs during the week would significantly inconvenience the public.
But ultra-Orthodox news sites doggedly covered news of the Sabbath train work recently, and ultra-Orthodox constituents egged on their politicians on social media to do something to prevent it.
"It's a snowball," said Shahar Ilan, an expert on the ultra-Orthodox and a journalist for the Israeli newspaper Calcalist.
By evening, train service resumed and the tempest quieted down.
The chairman of Israel's governing coalition announced that Netanyahu decided not to fire Katz over the crisis, and Israeli commentators said the ultra-Orthodox were not expected to make further threats to quit the coalition.
But Israel Railways said more midweek train services may be disrupted if Netanyahu continues to delay Sabbath repairs.
Schlimm, money for cheap oil went to educate against tolerance and for terrorism.
Only partially true? Point out the error, please.
daveklepper Schlimm, money for cheap oil went to educate against tolerance and for terrorism.
Sure -- and money for cheap consumer goods buys Chinese missiles aimed at the United States, helps prop up China's mad puppet in North Korea and build "islands" in the South China sea.
It's called "world trade," holiest of holies. There's nothing uniquely wrong with cheap oil bought from the Middle East -- it helped our economy hum for a long time. Cheap domestic oil is much better, but just try to keep some politicians and their greenie retainers from monkey-wrenching that!
dakotafred daveklepper Schlimm, money for cheap oil went to educate against tolerance and for terrorism. There's nothing uniquely wrong with cheap oil bought from the Middle East -- it helped our economy hum for a long time. Cheap domestic oil is much better, but just try to keep some politicians and their greenie retainers from monkey-wrenching that!
There's nothing uniquely wrong with cheap oil bought from the Middle East -- it helped our economy hum for a long time. Cheap domestic oil is much better, but just try to keep some politicians and their greenie retainers from monkey-wrenching that!
And the Saudi's make sure they supply more cheap oil so the US producers go bankrupt trying to meet or beat the Saudi delivered price. The Saudi's just 'turn the spigot'; in North America they have to work for it.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
You may disagree with my analysis, but again, without massive transfer of funds to states preaching "to kill an infadil is to get into heaven" and defining any non-Muslim as an infadil, we would not have ISIS and much else that is bad in the world today.
But now the terror that some of these countries produced has turned against some of them.
I was not referring to the Saudi connection to terrorists, which is true. Heck, Bush gave special treatment to bin Lade's relatives in US to fly out after 9-11 while all other civil flights were grounded. We should take action.
I was referring to American history. Here's one example. Only some colonists to British North America came for religious freedom. Many others came for economic opportunities and political reasons.
I agree completely with the above. What I should have written was that the original basis of the majority of the orginal thirteen colonies that formed the United States was freedom from religious persecution.
In these colonies the people wishing religious freedom came first, then those looking for better ecomomic oportunities later.
And immigration after Indepenence, 1776, was based on both factors, and is today.
And immigration after Indepenence, 1776, was based on both factors, and is today. Also political reasons before and after.
(Somehow, my editing effort became a new posting. Apologies.)
another necessary correction. there is no place in Torah or its commentaries that states that feeding the poor is prohibited on Shabbat. If Jesus was criticized for doing so by priests of his period, these priests were violating Jewish law and not Jesus. Many synagogues and some rabbis do have open house for Shabbat meals in Israel, where anyone, expected of course to dress modestly and behave properly, can come and eat and sing and join as a guest.
My good friend Rabbi and neighbor Mordecai Machlis often has 100 people at his Friday evening and Saturday noon meals, many not Jewish. After moving to Israel, my first Sabbath evening meal and my first Rosh HaShannah evening meal was at his home, and it was something of a life-saver at the time. The passing of his wife, whom I called Aunt Hennie, was a very sad occasion for me, and a picture of her is added to my usually-used prayerbook opposite a page describing the food brought to the Jeerusalem Temple for sacrifices. She also received an illustrated article in the Jerusalem Post.
Again editing seems to have produced a duplicate posting, apologies
The 13:
MA: primarily for religious freedom
RI: freedom from Puritan religious oppression in MA
NH: economic adventurers
CT: religious considerations
NY: economic
NJ: economic
DE: economic
PA: partly religious
MD: religious
VA: economics/political
NC: economics
SC: economics
GA: political
Religious considerations were not major factors in the founding of a majority of the 13 colonies. Ten were Crown colonies; three proprietary.
The rules concerning activity on a religious day in Israel are reminiscent of the restrictive old "Blue Laws" here in the US, which were/are linked to Christian religious beliefs of some. Much commercial activity was banned here on Sundays then. This was a remnant of a theocratic view of the state. It seems to still be the norm there.
even when the establishment was done for economic reasons, often the very first settlers were those who settled for religious reasons.
The town doctor at Colonial-era Williamsburg was a Sephardic Jew who had escaped the Inquisition (forget where), and ditto the first Jewish settlers in New Amsterdam, 10 years before the British came and renamed it New York. (Peter Stuyvesant wanted the mostly Dutch population to fight, but they decided against what would have been a futile and destructive effort.) The Jewish settlers had come from Recife, Brazil, where Portugal had just introduced the Inqusition.
New Netherland (I believe that was the name given it) was settled by the Dutch for economic reasons.
The settlers at Jamestown came for economic reasons--some wanted to find gold.
The Huguenots did come to Carolina so they could have religious and economic freedom, but they were a minority.
My ancestors who came to the Northern Neck of Virginia (between the Potomac and Rappahannock Rivers) in the 17th century had not been persecuted for their beliefs; I am not sure if any came to escape the Roundheads. One, who came in 1675, was the nephew of a man whom Charles II knighted.
The rules may be reminescent of Blue Laws as a first impression, but the Arab Sector obeys its own Blue Laws, including bus operation, enitrely independent of the Jewish sector. In general many more business activites are permitted in most areas than under Blue Laws. Secular Kibbutzim and Moshavim make their own rules, whatever they are. At the Hebew University and elsewhere in Jerusalem, the Aroma coffee shops are open on the Sabbath, and the Orthodox generally do not patronize them accordingly, even though they serve refreshments very reasonably priced and top quality. This results in a minor "Apartheid" against Orthodox Jewish students and faculty right on the Mount Scopus Hebrew University campus! The whole business is constantly under review and provokes controversy. In particular, the present Mayor wants cultural activities to flourish in Jerusalem on the Shabbat, so that secular Jerusalem residents don't find it necessary to be elsewhere to enjoy the day. One can always attend a concert or organ-recital in one of Jerusalem's many churches, and some charge admission. Unfortunately for me, the only active Israeli railfan group meets Friday evenings in Tel Aviv, and so I am not a member.
There are numersou commuter railroads in North America, both USA and Canada, that don't have weekend service or just don't have Sunday service.
Restaurants in hotels and at HU and other institutions, including hospitals, that have Kashrut certificates, are open on Shabbat but employ an all-Arab staff on Shabbat, and payment is arranged in advance or just on a general billing.
If I am not mistaken those Priests also complained the Jesus cured the sick on Shabbat, Again, they were violating the Torah, not Jesus. Doctors have always cured the sick on the Shabbat and use special doctor's telephones where curent is varied but not interrupted. My close friend Zvi Marcus is the Chief Engineer of the Institute of Halacha and Technology that eveloped the phone. But this was actually easier with the original carbon-granual mouthpiece and earpeace of the original Bell phone, a technology that continued until the perfection and low-cost production of the electro-dynamic modern replacements.
One is allowed to remove one's clothes and swim to save a drowning man or woman on the Sabbath and the man or woman need not be a Jew.
Ambulances and fire trucks operate on the Sabbath.
The Biblical requirement of the seeding and harvest resting on the Seventh Year is met mostly by land sales to a non-Jews with the repurchase after the year is over.
In parts of Haifa and Tel Aviv, one does not notice any difference on the Sabbath, except for buses in Tel Aviv but not Haifa. And in the Arab commercial center of Jerusalem.
It seems as if about 25% of the time of the Jerusalem City Council is takekn up with these controversies.
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