n012944 CMStPnP So perhaps a "on-time" Metra train is still a train that Amtrak needs to wait on. Amtrak has windows to run on the line. When Amtrak misses its window, Metra will not delay its trains for a late Amtrak, nor should it.
CMStPnP So perhaps a "on-time" Metra train is still a train that Amtrak needs to wait on.
So perhaps a "on-time" Metra train is still a train that Amtrak needs to wait on.
Amtrak has windows to run on the line. When Amtrak misses its window, Metra will not delay its trains for a late Amtrak, nor should it.
If it were an issue with "windows" Amtrak would report the train late on either the Amtrak or CP portion..............yet it doesn't. I tend to believe the second report, METRA operating on track without adequate capacity to handle Amtrak trains and as the owner of the track, doing whatever it feels like to keep it's own trains on time to the detriment of all tenant carriers (such as tying up the mainline at DEERFIELD for a reverse move).
In such a case, laying a dedicated Amtrak track on the ROW through METRA territory would eliminate almost all the METRA delays.
CMStPnP n012944 CMStPnP So perhaps a "on-time" Metra train is still a train that Amtrak needs to wait on. Amtrak has windows to run on the line. When Amtrak misses its window, Metra will not delay its trains for a late Amtrak, nor should it. If it were an issue with "windows" Amtrak would report the train late on either the Amtrak or CP portion..............yet it doesn't.
If it were an issue with "windows" Amtrak would report the train late on either the Amtrak or CP portion..............yet it doesn't.
No it will not.
CMStPnP I tend to believe the second report, METRA operating on track without adequate capacity to handle Amtrak trains and as the owner of the track, doing whatever it feels like to keep it's own trains on time to the detriment of all tenant carriers (such as tying up the mainline at DEERFIELD for a reverse move).
I tend to believe the second report, METRA operating on track without adequate capacity to handle Amtrak trains and as the owner of the track, doing whatever it feels like to keep it's own trains on time to the detriment of all tenant carriers (such as tying up the mainline at DEERFIELD for a reverse move).
A couple of posts up you also belived that Metra's dispatching system was somewhat at fault. An upgrade to the system was never mentioned in the report that you linked, and the system seems to do a fantasic job at keeping Metra on time. Kind of kills what you believe....
Amtrak's delay reporting is a little bit suspect. While I won't get into my experiances with Amtrak lying about delays, lets look at their definition for train interference.
I have put in bold the important part here. Lets say that Amtrak shows up late and Metra leaves on time. Instead of letting Amtrak follow the Metra train, the dispatcher gets Amtrak around the Metra while it is stopped at a station. Doing so requires Amtrak to go through 2 crossovers, which is not a move done at track speed, slowing down and delaying Amtrak. Under Amtraks delay reporting, Metra would still get hit with the delay, even though they gave the Amtrak train priority.
An "expensive model collector"
The BNSF three track raceway into Chicago is a great place to watch trains and normally Amtrak has no problem but when the Eastbound #4 or $6 get into the rush hour, Ft Worth gets challenged. I have seen inbound Amtrak come into the Fairview plant on #2 track, passing an inbound scoot on #3 track with an outbound scoot on #1 track and an outbound express is coming on #2 track. Delayed the inbound scoot about 2 min. I found the idea of two trains heading toward each other at 70 mph on track 2 was dicey but everyone was alert, followed the signals, and got where they needed to go. Score one for the Dispatcher. Though I have had days where I saw PPD (piss poor Dispatching) but thats another story.
n012944 CMStPnP n012944 CMStPnP So perhaps a "on-time" Metra train is still a train that Amtrak needs to wait on. Amtrak has windows to run on the line. When Amtrak misses its window, Metra will not delay its trains for a late Amtrak, nor should it. If it were an issue with "windows" Amtrak would report the train late on either the Amtrak or CP portion..............yet it doesn't. No it will not. CMStPnP I tend to believe the second report, METRA operating on track without adequate capacity to handle Amtrak trains and as the owner of the track, doing whatever it feels like to keep it's own trains on time to the detriment of all tenant carriers (such as tying up the mainline at DEERFIELD for a reverse move). A couple of posts up you also belived that Metra's dispatching system was somewhat at fault. An upgrade to the system was never mentioned in the report that you linked, and the system seems to do a fantasic job at keeping Metra on time. Kind of kills what you believe.... Amtrak's delay reporting is a little bit suspect. While I won't get into my experiances with Amtrak lying about delays, lets look at their definition for train interference. Train Interference Delays: All delays related to other train movements in the area. Primary causes of these types of delays are freight trains but also can include commuter trains and other Amtrak passenger trains. This category also includes delays due to switching to alternate tracks or routes to operate around other trains. I have put in bold the important part here. Lets say that Amtrak shows up late and Metra leaves on time. Instead of letting Amtrak follow the Metra train, the dispatcher gets Amtrak around the Metra while it is stopped at a station. Doing so requires Amtrak to go through 2 crossovers, which is not a move done at track speed, slowing down and delaying Amtrak. Under Amtraks delay reporting, Metra would still get hit with the delay, even though they gave the Amtrak train priority.
+!
Metra's reporting standards are far more trustworthy and common sense. A 20 point difference in on-time is enormous.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Electroliner 1935 The BNSF three track raceway into Chicago is a great place to watch trains and normally Amtrak has no problem but when the Eastbound #4 or $6 get into the rush hour, Ft Worth gets challenged. I have seen inbound Amtrak come into the Fairview plant on #2 track, passing an inbound scoot on #3 track with an outbound scoot on #1 track and an outbound express is coming on #2 track. Delayed the inbound scoot about 2 min. I found the idea of two trains heading toward each other at 70 mph on track 2 was dicey but everyone was alert, followed the signals, and got where they needed to go. Score one for the Dispatcher. Though I have had days where I saw PPD (piss poor Dispatching) but thats another story.
Yeah I have ridden BNSF to the end of the METRA territory. Better operation but also their signaling is newer and probably bidirectional as well as integrated into that third track. Making for more flexible dispatching.
Also, not buying it that Amtrak is "lying". Far more likely METRA is manipulating if anyone, far larger and more bereaucratic than Amtrak for starters. Additionally, you have the FRA and both DOT's involved in this corridor that would call Amtrak out if it was being dishonest.
CMStPnP Electroliner 1935 The BNSF three track raceway into Chicago is a great place to watch trains and normally Amtrak has no problem but when the Eastbound #4 or $6 get into the rush hour, Ft Worth gets challenged. I have seen inbound Amtrak come into the Fairview plant on #2 track, passing an inbound scoot on #3 track with an outbound scoot on #1 track and an outbound express is coming on #2 track. Delayed the inbound scoot about 2 min. I found the idea of two trains heading toward each other at 70 mph on track 2 was dicey but everyone was alert, followed the signals, and got where they needed to go. Score one for the Dispatcher. Though I have had days where I saw PPD (piss poor Dispatching) but thats another story. Yeah I have ridden BNSF to the end of the METRA territory. Better operation but also their signaling is newer and probably bidirectional as well as integrated into that third track. Making for more flexible dispatching.
I am almost 100% sure that the MILW North line is signaled bidirectional as well. If it is not, it makes even more important for Amtrak to hit its windows as it would be running slower under block protection if forced to run "wrong main."
The BNSF line is bidirectional on all three tracks. I enjoyed watching the signals from a dome in April of 1971--and occasionally after that as long as Amtrak operated dome cars. It is still possible to watch them from the rear of a train.
Johnny
I doubt if either is lying or manipulating. More to do with different defintions of on-time. Metra trains (which I often ride) are generally within a minute during rush hour, within 5 minutes in off-peak. Also, the distance of their runs is obviously shorter than Amtrak's, even CHI-MKE (89 miles). But Metra has run trains on-time, for the most part, for many years and the RTA and private lines before that. Amtrak is a dinosaur and must depend on the freight lines.
One other BIG difference between Metra and Amtrak in the Chicago area corridors is the knowledge and flexibility of the passengers. Metra trains can pull in and every passenger is already at a door ready to get off (or on). Their stops are often less than a minute for 50 to 100 passengers. This lets them catch up or stay on schedule. Amtrak, even the Milwaukee trains, often sees lots of luggage and slow boarding. I have seen stops exceeding 5 minutes at the Milwaukee airport while people get on and off with multiple bags. I have also seen only two doors opened and passengers have to walk the 6-car train to get to the door.
The track is bi-directional and I have been on an Amtrak train using almost every crossover to get around and through the peak commuter times.
bartman-tnI have also seen only two doors opened and passengers have to walk the 6-car train to get to the door.
That is due to lack of a platform one one side of the tracks when they are stuck on the far track headed Northbound there is no platform so they pull up and only open doors to a 15 foot wide cross over.
bartman-tnThe track is bi-directional and I have been on an Amtrak train using almost every crossover to get around and through the peak commuter times.
Yeah no kidding the track is bidirectional. We are talking about signaling which impacts speed and the duration of travel in an opposing direction on the other track. You notice as you pass onto ex-PRR track the Amtrak Milwaukee or Chicago bound trains never cross over beyond the two tracks they are limited too.........that should tell you something right there about dispatching flexibility and track and/or signaling to support it. As I speculated earlier and it just speculation. Have my doubts METRA has updated the system that much from the Milwaukee Road or PRR years. Also, notice the old PRR signal lights, not standardized with the other METRA signal lights on other parallel tracks?
CMStPnPAs I speculated earlier and it just speculation. Have my doubts METRA has updated the system that much from the Milwaukee Road or PRR years. Also, notice the old PRR signal lights, not standardized with the other METRA signal lights on other parallel tracks?
PRR?
CMStPnP bartman-tn I have also seen only two doors opened and passengers have to walk the 6-car train to get to the door. That is due to lack of a platform one one side of the tracks when they are stuck on the far track headed Northbound there is no platform so they pull up and only open doors to a 15 foot wide cross over.
bartman-tn I have also seen only two doors opened and passengers have to walk the 6-car train to get to the door.
Sounds like something out of the early 19th century. Can't they build a walkover bridge with escalators?
schlimmPRR?
Pennsylvania Railroad circles around Chicago and enters Union Station from the North. Milwaukee Road never had tracks all the way to Union Station. I believe at tower A-20 in the diagram of the report above the Milwaukee Road merges with the former Pennsylvania Railroad ROW and enters Union Station via trackage rights on the ex-PRR. Thats why the ROW still has the ex-PRR position light signals beyond tower A-20.
Believe it or not somewhat prior to the PRR arrangement. Milwaukee Road did not have tracks Milwaukee to Chicago and used one of the C&NW lines that was late 1800's though and I am not sure when they finally built Milwaukee to Chicago.
Would be curious to know what station the Milwaukee used initially in Chicago, was it Northwestern Depot?
schlimmSounds like something out of the early 19th century. Can't they build a walkover bridge with escalators?
Yes it is pretty sad. I don't know how many drinks it took to get CP to agree to the current setup. But Northbound trains have to cross over onto the Southbound tracks to get to the long platform at General Mitchell International Airport and well it's not all that long either. Along the Northbound tracks they only have a crossover paved and it is only about 20 feet and only on the side of the tracks where passengers have to cross the Southbound tracks first.
So I am not sure why am guessing it is dispatchers perogative but some Northbound trains do not do the crossover to the Southbound tracks and instead discharge out of just two doors on that really narrow crossover part. In most cases they do the crossover though. CP stated to Amtrak it will not accept anymore train frequencies on the line until they fix this station to eliminate the need to cross over the tracks by trains and CP wants an elevated crossover for pedestrians as there is at the new Sturtevant station. CP says the current situation is massively disruptive to CP operations.
I guess they built the station on the cheap and didn't really complete the platforms to acceptable standards. Not sure why they rigged it up this way. I am surprised that CP agreed to it in the first place.
CMStPnPPennsylvania Railroad circles around Chicago and enters Union Station from the North. Milwaukee Road never had tracks all the way to Union Station. I believe at tower A-20 in the diagram of the report above the Milwaukee Road merges with the former Pennsylvania Railroad ROW and enters Union Station via trackage rights on the ex-PRR. Thats why the ROW still has the ex-PRR position light signals beyond tower A-20.
I've never heard of anything like that, but I am no expert on the CMStP. PRR always entered CUS into the South Concourse.
Union Station had all PRR Position Light signals as built and Amtrak has replaced some but not all. Most of the South Signals were modified when the Harrison St interlocking tower was closed and the station interlockings updated and consolidated. The PRR (Pennsylvania Rail Road) had two routes into the station, the primary one through Englewood from the South and the one from the North was originally for the PCC&StL route from Logansport until the Colhour connection was made along the Indiana border. PRR passenger trains from Columbus, Cincinnati, and Louisville (PCC&StL) were moved to the Englewood route in the 1920's I believe.
I have some memories from back in the early 1940's (mostly from what my dad told me) of riding in the back vestibule of a train to Indianapolis that had two K-4 pacifics on the front, being delayed by an open bridge over the Calumet River turning at Colehour onto the SC&S branch, and then after reaching the double track main at Bernice Jct, racing at 100 mph (my dad timed it with his watch and mileposts) It made a lasting impression.
Ref. http://www.chicagorailfan.com/routecus.html
Station was owned by Chicago Union Station Co., which was jointly owned by the four railroads using the station. Union Station trackage extended south to the beginning of trackage of three separate railroads. While trackage north and west extended to Tower A-2 (Western Avenue). Tower A-2 was the beginning of the Milwaukee Road, operating most trains using the north end of Union Station. Extending south of Tower A-2 was the Pennsylvania Railroad's Pittsburgh Cincinnati Chicago & St. Louis line. But eventually, all trains using that line used the Pennsylvania Railroad's Pittsburgh Fort Wayne & Chicago line south of Union Station.
schlimm CMStPnP Pennsylvania Railroad circles around Chicago and enters Union Station from the North. Milwaukee Road never had tracks all the way to Union Station. I believe at tower A-20 in the diagram of the report above the Milwaukee Road merges with the former Pennsylvania Railroad ROW and enters Union Station via trackage rights on the ex-PRR. Thats why the ROW still has the ex-PRR position light signals beyond tower A-20. I've never heard of anything like that, but I am no expert on the CMStP. PRR always entered CUS into the South Concourse.
CMStPnP Pennsylvania Railroad circles around Chicago and enters Union Station from the North. Milwaukee Road never had tracks all the way to Union Station. I believe at tower A-20 in the diagram of the report above the Milwaukee Road merges with the former Pennsylvania Railroad ROW and enters Union Station via trackage rights on the ex-PRR. Thats why the ROW still has the ex-PRR position light signals beyond tower A-20.
http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/itlk_log_chi_main.html
How the PRR's Panhandle got to the north end of Union Station.
Chicago Union Station ownership was PRR-50%, CB&Q-25%, MILW-25%. Alton was a tenant.
Great research!!
The track was once owned by PRR, but not in our lifetimes and only a half share into the current CUS (1925). I doubt if the PRR ever ran passenger trains into the north concourse except on the two through tracks by the river.
"The trackage was initially owned by PRR, but then a half-interest was sold to the Milwaukee on 18 May 1908."
PRR ran some Logansport locals around to the North Joint Approach to Union Station until April 23, 1927, some months after the station opened. Through PCC&StL (Panhandle) trains had run via the South Chicago and Southern (Bernice Cutoff) since the 1893 Columbian Exhibition. PRR and PC served several warehouses and a freight house on the North Joint Approach. NS still delivers cars to ADM on Carroll Ave between Ogden and Racine.
rcdrye PRR ran some Logansport locals around to the North Joint Approach to Union Station until April 23, 1927, some months after the station opened. Through PCC&StL (Panhandle) trains had run via the South Chicago and Southern (Bernice Cutoff) since the 1893 Columbian Exhibition. PRR and PC served several warehouses and a freight house on the North Joint Approach. NS still delivers cars to ADM on Carroll Ave between Ogden and Racine.
I seem to remember seeing one or two CONRAIL era switchers on it but no idea what they were doing on the track or if they were leased to Amtrak for maintenence....too young back then but I do remember Amtrak leased MoW equipment from Conrail or just bought it outright. Maybe some of the older folks remember. I don't think PRR gave up it's ownership interest or abandoned the route and suspect it transferred over to Conrail as you imply.
Heck if it was me and I owned the route, first thing to go would be the position light signals. I would not have hung onto them this long.
PRR/PC/Conrail owned 50% after selling half to MILW. I recall seeing PRR swichers as well, moving freight transfers to CNW.
CMStPnPHeck if it was me and I owned the route, first thing to go would be the position light signals. I would not have hung onto them this long.
CUS also had or has dwarf signals with aspects based on PRR position light signals. Position light signals actually meet the requirements of signals for PTC (no moving parts). Crews always had to qualify on CUS rules to operate there anyway, so there isn't a large incentive to change the signals. I suspect Amtrak (the current owner) also has a large supply of PL spares, since they're also used at interlockings (with colored bulbs) on the Northeast Corridor and Harriburg lines. My understanding is that Metra acquired the MILW/Conrail ownership west of Canal St with Conrail (later NS) retaining rights. East of Canal was traditionally CUS owned, now owned by Amtrak.
CMStPnP Also, not buying it that Amtrak is "lying". Far more likely METRA is manipulating if anyone, far larger and more bereaucratic than Amtrak for starters. Additionally, you have the FRA and both DOT's involved in this corridor that would call Amtrak out if it was being dishonest.
Seems very unlikely that Amtrak numbers reflect reality. This from the MHSRA:
The Surface Transportation Board (STB) is currently accepting public comments on how to define “On-Time Performance “ (OTP) for intercity passenger trains. This is an important definition to get right as intercity passenger train operators can file a complaint against the host railroad if their OTP falls below 80% for consecutive quarters.
Click here to send a message to the Surface Transportation Board.
The Midwest High Speed Rail Association believes the current proposal by the STB falls short as it only takes into account the final destination. Amtrak often adds a half-hour cushion for longer routes and 15 minutes for shorter routes. That means a train can be significantly late at intermediate stations but be counted as on time for the entire trip.
It is important that the STB include tracking on-time performance at intermediate stations in their new definition. This would provide a clearer picture of train delays and what needs to be done to provide more reliable service.
Click here to help raise the standards for on-time performance of intercity passenger rail.
^^^ I am tired of arguing it. We'll have to agree to disagree. Your comparing different stats. Amtrak is measuring two stats. On time performance and reason for delays. It never really stated they were related outright. The fact you can have a delay and still arrive ontime I think is another discussion altogether. Airlines operate the same way. Once push backed from gate thats their departure measurement.........not wheels up.
Additionally, as pointed out earlier Amtrak Engineers have little or no leeway to make up time if the speed limit is 79 mph with the governor they have on the locomotive........will be even more difficult with PTC I would expect. It's another flaw with both Amtrak and the FRA. As I would like to see what additional stresses a passenger train going 90 mph vs one going 79 mph places on the track. My guess is very little but for some reason 80 mph is the dividing point between different classes of track for passenger trains (shouldn't their be seperate standards for type of train vs one all trains standard?).
I think our FRA needs reform more than I think the taxpayers should get hit with extra tens of billions of dollars to upgrade tracks. I see some light at the end of the tunnel with some of the waivers for HSR trainsets but it's not even a smidgen of what the FRA should consider in the area of examining it's regulations for areas of overkill.
Amtrak also pads it's LD schedules because it's equipment is not designed for fast loading and unloading, which I think is poor design they gave up on high speed LD trains.....but they have. I wish they would figure out if they want high level or low level platforms (Superliner or Bombardier cars), then figure out a way to stop the idiocy of two stops at each LD station, then find a way via improved car design to limit LD station stops to no more than 3 min each. Then improve the slow tracks they have all over their system. Watch the youtube video of the City of New Orleans leaving New Orleans Station. Obviously running on a dedicated passenger main for like the first 12-15 miles with very limited sidings or switches but only at a speed of 35-40 mph? Really? Why not speed that up to 79 mph. It is silliness but how many other Big City Stations are like that?
CMStPnP Additionally, as pointed out earlier Amtrak Engineers have little or no leeway to make up time if the speed limit is 79 mph with the governor they have on the locomotive.......
Additionally, as pointed out earlier Amtrak Engineers have little or no leeway to make up time if the speed limit is 79 mph with the governor they have on the locomotive.......
Speeding is a a good way to get decertified as an engineer from the FRA, and god help you if you hit someone while doing it. No engineer that I know is going to risk his/her's livelihood so you can feel better about Amtrak's on time percentage.
n012944 CMStPnP Additionally, as pointed out earlier Amtrak Engineers have little or no leeway to make up time if the speed limit is 79 mph with the governor they have on the locomotive....... Speeding is a a good way to get decertified as an engineer from the FRA, and god help you if you hit someone while doing it. No engineer that I know is going to risk his/her's livelihood so you can feel better about Amtrak's on time percentage.
An Amtrak employee familiar with the situation reports the following list of speed limiting equipment on an Amtrak locomotive.
"In order ACSES/PTC; Cab Signal ATC, the propulsion system limits the top speed for the engine, the traction motors have governors that limit the RPM of the motor itself (which would relate to track speed by gear ratio and would have to be high for Michigan and Illinois service). Oh yeah and the engineer can limit the speed."
No speed set by Amtrak as reported! There are other errors in this post that relate to track class, but for another time.
n012944Speeding is a a good way to get decertified as an engineer from the FRA, and god help you if you hit someone while doing it. No engineer that I know is going to risk his/her's livelihood so you can feel better about Amtrak's on time percentage.
Thats why I said the FRA needs to take a second look.
As long as it is with a 10 mph range instead of 2-3 mph, I think it's something everyone can live with. They lived with it decades ago before the FRA tightened up on everything.
Used to be that napping in the cab could get you fired.....not too long ago.
Safety is of the FIRST importance in the discharge of duty. Maintaining the schedule time is not. Looking the other way at relatively minor rules violations sets a poor precedent that can lead to real problems later on.
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