There has been some discussion about extending the new faster Wolverine service to major Canadian points: Toronto and southern Ontario. Several problems have come up: delay in getting through customs; Amtrak Michigan trains end up in Pontiac and not close to the CPR Windsor tunnel.
The Lake Shore Limited would be sent over the hign speed line to Detroit, through the tunnel to Windsor, and non-stop to Buffalo. The train would cross Ontario sealed without any passengers/crew on or off the train. This ought to remove the need for custom inspection.
The new routing would cut running time Chicago to Buffalo to 8 or 9 hours or less. It would open up large centers of population in Michigan for train service. Finally it takes the train off conjested lines in Indiana and Ohio. The train could actually run on schedule! Some cities would have lesser service. They would, however, continue to have the Capitol Limited. Unknown to me is if the Canadian government and railroads would allow the train to operate and at speeds necessary for a 4 or 5 hour schedule across southern Ontario. The new routing would require a station close to the tunnel in Detroit.
OK. Time to take another deep breath.
Do you really think, zaleski, that Amtrak is going to run a train to Chicago from both Boston & NYC that bypasses Erie, all of Ohio, and a good part of Indiana, just to save time? Is it possible that you believe the Lake Shore Limited runs to get passengers from point A to point B in the least amount of time? Then why not simply "seal the train" as it leaves Penn Station and run it non-stop to Chicago? Can you think of a reason not to do that? So can I. For that matter, why not fly passengers to NYC/Boston to Chicago? Two hours versus 20? Why not?
By the way, how much support for Amtrak in Congress will Ontario's MP's be able to offer?
"Sealed trains" bring to my mind, anyway, images of Lenin & his Bolsheviks on their way to the Finland Station.
Bottom line: Ain't never gonna happen. Ever. Period.
Sound like the idea is dead on arrival. There would be a major loss of ridership. I doubt crossing two international borders would ever save any time.
Railfans have to realize that everything railroads, even Amtrak, do is for their economic benefit. If it isn't going to add to the bottom line the idea is dead on conception.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
The name of the railroad, for heaven's sake, is Amtrak ... the 'Am' standing for 'American.' This idea is wrong side of the border.
As was so well put, it is not the time, it is the money which determines most everything. But, do not stop dreaming and proposing new ways of looking at situations because only with open minds comes change.
dakotafred The name of the railroad, for heaven's sake, is Amtrak ... the 'Am' standing for 'American.' This idea is wrong side of the border.
By your reasoning, Amtrak should not serve Montreal, Vancouver, or Niagara Falls, Ontario?
Johnny
With all due respect to Deggesty, I don't think that's at all what dakotafred meant. Not at all.
Why would Amtrak switch from using their present line, which is provided by railroads at a favorable rate to ATK, to a Canadian line where they would have to negotiate a market rate.
With the exception of turning the equipment a bit quicker, how is saving a potential few hours help Amtrak or its passenger? Amtrak would be losing millions of potential customers on the american side with out benefiting any on the Canadian side.
Very few long distance passengers factor in time as a major element in their planning.
How about one New York City lake shore limited go from New York to Philly then west to Harrisburg, Pa to Chicago, IL on the Broadway limited route?? and the Boston train on the other route??
I might be wrong but I thought a portion of the old prr main line west of Pittsburgh was either down graded or abandoned. This was part of the reason why the Broadway limited was discontinued.
Amtrak original choice for serving Chicago to new York city was train 48-49, the Broadway limited. All service west of Buffalo on the PC was discontinued. The lake shore limited was revived as a state supported service by Pennsylvania, Ohio and Indiana, late in 1971.
First lets buy enough equipment for the LSL so that it can meet any demand. Then worry about reroutes of some parts of the train .
ROBERT WILLISON I might be wrong but I thought a portion of the old prr main line west of Pittsburgh was either down graded or abandoned. This was part of the reason why the Broadway limited was discontinued. Amtrak original choice for serving Chicago to new York city was train 48-49, the Broadway limited. All service west of Buffalo on the PC was discontinued. The lake shore limited was revived as a state supported service by Pennsylvania, Ohio and Indiana, late in 1971.
It seems to me that the only possibility in the near future for through New York City-Pittsburgh-Chicago service is coupling/uncoupling a New York car to the Capitol Limited in Pittsburgh (which has been discussed here in times past).
The present day LSL was inagurated in October 1975. The "state" supported LAKE SHORE started several weeks after May 1, 1971 and was discontinued in early January of 1972. The states that had promised to pay for the service balked when Amtrak initiated the the NORTH COAST HIAWATHA and POTOMAC SPECIAL due to political pressure and were not designated as pay as you go as the LAKE SHORE was.
The BROADWAY LTD was forced off the ex-PRR in 1990. It was rerouted over the ex-B&O to Chicago. IMHO Amtrak made a mistake in not routing this train west of Fostoria, OH via the ex-NKP thru Fort Wayne which historically always had good ridership as did Lima and Canton. The combination of President Downs and the Mercer Report sealed the Broadway's fate
The BROADWAY LTD never was scheduled thru Cleveland. The expanded PENNSYLVANIAN later ran over this route Chicago-Philadelphia.
Correct, the Pennsylvanian was essentially extended as a mail train. All three Cleveland to Chicago trains avrrived and departed in the wee hours of the morning. When Amtrak stopped handling the mail and express cars, the train was cut back to Pittsburgh. Did it carry sleepers, I don't remember?
The "Pennsylvanian" operated as a Chicago-Philadelphia day train with coaches, a snack bar, and lots of mail and express in express boxcars and Roadrailers.
When I said reviving the Broadway, I meant running it via a route that is now possible, which probably should include Cleveland. I might leave New York around 2, get to Pittsburgh around 8:30, and Cleveland around midnight, better for its Chicago passengers than either the Lake Shore or Capitol.``This would put it into Chicago around 9 in the morning. Returning, it would leave Chicago around 8pmget to Cleveland around 7AM, and then be a day train to NY, arriving about 5pm. I suspect half the through passengers would be Philadelphians, for whom this would also have convenient times, but shorts between Philly and NY would easily fill the empty seats in that leg. It would Pennsylvanian the second west-of-Harrisburg train it is requesting, as well as giving the Cleveland market a chance in both directions.
The United States and Canada have had a largely peaceful history. But during the War of 1812, U.S. forces invaded their northern neighbor, only to be stymied by a series of embarrassing mishaps. Find out what went wrong on the 200th anniversary of the start of the Canadian campaign, which took place on July 12, 1812.
http://www.history.com/news/how-u-s-forces-failed-to-conquer-canada-200-years-ago
The opportunity to easily implement the shortest route from Buffalo to Detroit was missed years ago.
For an interesting point of view on this campaign, read the plaques on the battlefield memorials in the Niagara region, especially the Battle of Lundy's Lane.
daveklepper I might leave New York around 2, get to Pittsburgh around 8:30
I might leave New York around 2, get to Pittsburgh around 8:30
You might, but why would you expect to take only 6 hr 30 min when the current schedule says 9 hr 13 min?
Patrick Boylan
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Extending the morning maple leaf ( 715am departure from nyc) from buffola to Cleveland for 5:30 ish pm arrival. This would add daylight service onto the nocturnal lake shore limited better serving western new York and nw pa.
Just as with Dave Klepper's timing, why do you expect your train to make it in 2 hr 29 min when the current schedule Buffalo to Cleveland is 3 hr 28 min? Does the Lake Shore's baggage handling at Buffalo take an hour? The schedule shows 4 minutes at Buffalo and no baggage at Erie. I don't remember dwelling anywhere but Albany for half an hour when I rode it.
And please don't call changing a New York-Toronto train to a New York-Cleveland train an extension, it's a reroute that eliminates a very big population destination for a much smaller one.
I think the issue here is not rerouting the MAPLE LEAF but adding a section to run along the south shore of Lake Erie. For operational and patronage reasons the western terminus of this extension should be Toledo.
ROBERT WILLISON Extending the morning maple leaf ( 715am departure from nyc) from buffola to Cleveland for 5:30 ish pm arrival. This would add daylight service onto the nocturnal lake shore limited better serving western new York and nw pa.
bill613a For operational and patronage reasons the western terminus of this extension should be Toledo.
For operational and patronage reasons the western terminus of this extension should be Toledo.
Johnny, its the scheduled time for the lsl. Toledo would be good end point, with connecting buses to Detroit.
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