schlimmWindsor to Toronto on Via Rail currently takes 4:06 to 4:34 hours. Add another 1:30 or more from Detroit and you have over 6 hours. Maybe an overnight train?
I think Chicago to Toronto being overnight would sell well with business travelers and tourists alike. Having driven the route, scenary wise it is about as exciting as driving across West Texas.
Windsor to Toronto on Via Rail currently takes 4:06 to 4:34 hours. Add another 1:30 or more from Detroit and you have over 6 hours. Maybe an overnight train?
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Detroit still has two options for a Downtown Train Station. First is the Renissance Center (former GT)......that would be a riverfront station..........the railroad right of way is still intact from the Ren Cen all the way to the New Center Amtrak train station. All they need to do is relay the rail and drop ballast based on what I see via Satellite on Mapquest. Access to Michigan Central Station still exists as well from the Amtrak routing as well as access to the under river rail tunnel to Windsor.
So moving the Amtrak route which was done to better serve Detroits Northern Suburbs (where a good portion of the affluent White population now resides), did not eliminate any alternatives for better serving downtown Detroit or for that matter restoring service to Windsor if someone wanted to do that.
In regards to restoring the Ontario service. I believe you have to PAY to use that underwater rail tunnel (someone correct me if I am wrong). I don't think it is free to Amtrak. Crossing the international border I believe would slow things down because of customs BUT also I think your changing railroads or at least a Dispatching center at some point on the Windsor side (no idea if it is before or after the station stop)......thats going to be a delay as well. Last, didn't they move the VIA Rail Windsor station to a new location vs the one it used to have in the pre-Amtrak days?
The border crossings at Niagara and for Montreal are pretty slow, 1.5 hours.
That is a workable idea, and at first can be a minibus until patronage builds. Amtrak and VIA should act on that idea.
I once did ride a CP sleeper from Toronto to Michigan Central Station, Detroit.
schlimm MidlandMike As far as population, Detroit is certainly larger than Flint (formerly the largest city on the Port Huron route) but both cities have lost about half their population in recent decades. The city of Detroit has lost a lot, but the MSA is 4.2 million. Toronto's CMA is 5.58 million. Throw in London at 475,000 and you have a nice corridor of over 10 million, if you can get an expedited border crossing.
MidlandMike As far as population, Detroit is certainly larger than Flint (formerly the largest city on the Port Huron route) but both cities have lost about half their population in recent decades.
The city of Detroit has lost a lot, but the MSA is 4.2 million. Toronto's CMA is 5.58 million. Throw in London at 475,000 and you have a nice corridor of over 10 million, if you can get an expedited border crossing.
The point I was trying to make in my reply, was that the population from Toronto to London (and Chicago to Battle Creek) were served by the International thru Port Huron. Downtown Detroit was missed, but the northern part of the MSA is about as close to the Port Huron/Flint route. Part of the reason the route failed may be because of the one-of-a-kind joint Amtrak/VIA operation. In the meantime the Amtrak Detroit route has been moved further from the Michigan Central depot and tunnel. Amtrak's schedule notes that there is VIA service Windsor/Toronto, but that passengers must make their own transfer arrangements. Perhaps as a first step to gauge interest, they could have a Thruway bus connection Detroit-Windsor with reasonable train connections.
I have made two trips under the river at Detroit, both times by taxi going from the railroad station on one side to a hotel on the other--and once the taxi reached customs it was quick for my wife and me.
Crossing at the other four points by rail were quick for the two of us (had we been profiled--age and decent apparel?); the only delays may have been caused by questionable people on the train; I recall one or two people whose business in our country was questioned, and one person who, with an unhappy expression on his face, had to take a suitcase to the lounge car so it could be examined.
Johnny
CJtrainguyWhen I drove from Chicago to Niagara Falls to New York City several years ago, the border formalities involved a quick stop for document check on entry into Canada and a slightly longer document check on reentry to the US. Why that can't happen in a moving train for train passengers is beyond me.
You were very fortunate if it was a "quick check" at the border to enter and exit Canada by road. I used to live in Detroit a while back and weather it is the Tunnel under the river or the bridge over the river the wait to cross the border sometimes can exceed 2 hours by road. The scariest part is stop and go....bumper to bumper in that under river tunnel. You know all it takes then is a massive fire or for the exhaust fans to quit and your a goner.
U.S. Customs will harrass you entering the U.S. no matter what the stupid reason. For example I initially had Bucky Badger UW stickers on my car and the idiots on the U.S. side thought I was a College Student smuggling drugs. Yes they are that dumb sometimes and harrass the Canadians attempting to cross even more with phrases such as "What American job are you taking today?". Imagine having to deal with that on a daily basis. Even worse if your an ethnic Arab or have a tint to your skin color.
So you were pretty fortunate.
I have crossed the border on the Adriondack, The Cascade, the Maple Leaf, and the Vermonter (when it was an overnighter to Montreal). Never took the International when it was a through Chicago-Toronto train. Customs and Immigration (C&I) were easier before 9/11 but the Niagra Falls crossing on the Maple Leaf was a horrible experiece. Made us leave our car while dogs searched for drugs. After the crossing, the crew told me that the Canadians had found contraband on a previous train and that the US C&I wasn't going to let that happen again. Cascade C&I was in Vancouver, and very efficient. Return trip from Vancouver was on an Amtrak Thruway Bus that stopped at the highway C&I area at Surrey which was efficient and friendly. Adriondack & Vermonter were also routine and while it took time, not excessive. Would be nice if they would put C&I on the train and let them make they inpections between stations, then van them back to/from the border.
Did take city bus services between Detroit and Windsor, Not an efficient connection but as a frugal (cheap) railfan, found it interesting. If I recall, I think it may have required three busses, One from the Michigan Central Station to downtown Detroit, One through the Tunnel, and one to the Via Station. C&I at the tunnel exit. If think it took about two hours. It probably could have been done in about a half hour by taxi.
Perhaps someone from the Detroit area can tell us what bus service is available today.
CSSHEGEWISCH VIA already operates a pretty good Toronto-London-Windsor/Sarnia corridor operation. Extending it into the United States (even if Amtrak operates that portion) is probably more bother than it's worth.
VIA already operates a pretty good Toronto-London-Windsor/Sarnia corridor operation. Extending it into the United States (even if Amtrak operates that portion) is probably more bother than it's worth.
So the fact that there are already passenger trains running Toronto-Windsor and Detroit-Chicago should make us pat ourselves on the back and go home?!
How do I get from the Amtrak station on the Detroit side to the VIA station in Windsor and is there any effort whatsoever at coordinating so that a person could travel through? I am fairly sure the answer is that there are no through passengers today, but that doesn't mean that there is no potential demand or need given the population base.
When I drove from Chicago to Niagara Falls to New York City several years ago, the border formalities involved a quick stop for document check on entry into Canada and a slightly longer document check on reentry to the US. Why that can't happen in a moving train for train passengers is beyond me.
MidlandMikeAs far as population, Detroit is certainly larger than Flint (formerly the largest city on the Port Huron route) but both cities have lost about half their population in recent decades.
zaleski This is responding to my zaleski post on a Chicago-Detroit-Toronto-Buffalo extension to new faster service in Michigan. Two big differences exist between the former service through Sarnia/Port Huron: 1. The Chicago-Detroit part of the route will easily be the fastest running time in the USA; 2. Population on the new routing must be 8 to 10 times larger than the Port Huron route.
This is responding to my zaleski post on a Chicago-Detroit-Toronto-Buffalo extension to new faster service in Michigan. Two big differences exist between the former service through Sarnia/Port Huron: 1. The Chicago-Detroit part of the route will easily be the fastest running time in the USA; 2. Population on the new routing must be 8 to 10 times larger than the Port Huron route.
Well Chicago-Detroit won't be the fastest, but it will be one of the fastest (if the Kalamazoo-Detroit segment is upgraded to 110mph). But there are a couple of problems: the Detroit end of the route has been directed away from the downtown and tunnel to Canada, in favor of a route to the northern suburbs, and ends about 30 miles north; and secondly Chicago-Toronto is too short to be a federally supported long distance route, so Michigan would have to pick-up its share of all the subsidy, and I don't think that will happen. Additionally, as mentioned by others, the higher speeds will be partially offset by the longer border formalities. As far as population, Detroit is certainly larger than Flint (formerly the largest city on the Port Huron route) but both cities have lost about half their population in recent decades. On the Ontario side, most of the population is from London (where the routes merge) eastward. Also, I should have mentioned earlier, that the Detroit-Buffalo segment lost its train even before Amtrak.
CMStPnP NKP guy Thank you, CMStPnP: I see I need to be even more obvious when I use satire here. Sorry, satire for me is hard to pickup on without the emoticons. Use those and it will help. I post on another forum on another website where a small portion of the posters are clearly senile and it is really hard communicating with them because you can't tell which world they are in or they read into my comments something I never stated. So all in all.........the posters here are a lot better.
NKP guy Thank you, CMStPnP: I see I need to be even more obvious when I use satire here.
Thank you, CMStPnP:
I see I need to be even more obvious when I use satire here.
I think there might evidence that senility or otherwise impaired cognition is found in abundance in many blogs.
NKP guy I don't see how a train to Canada could work after President Scott Walker orders the building of that 5,000 mile wall along that very, very dangerous border. Also, President Walker wouldn't be much of a friend to Amtrak, either. But we'll finally be safe from those Canadians!
I don't see how a train to Canada could work after President Scott Walker orders the building of that 5,000 mile wall along that very, very dangerous border. Also, President Walker wouldn't be much of a friend to Amtrak, either.
But we'll finally be safe from those Canadians!
Your probably the only person on the Internet that thinks Walker is a serious contender for the White House while his base in Wisconsin is steadily eroding over his decision to run. BTW, why exactly do you think the next President has anything to do with Amtrak? The Legislative Branch votes for and approves Amtrak funding and always has. When was the last time the President's budget submission was accepted by Congress and approved? Look that one up.
Yes it is pretty sad you could cross the Iron Curtain into Eastern Europe with a little over a 7-10 min delay / stop but you can't do the same between the U.S. and Canada.
CSSHEGEWISCH Border formalities are the least of the issues. The question is whether there is a real market for such a service.
Border formalities are the least of the issues. The question is whether there is a real market for such a service.
To determine that, one would have to look at auto, bus and plane traffic between Detroit area and Toronto. Also Toronto and the Buffalo area. And yes, this overlooks intermediate points such as London, Waterloo, Stratford and Hamilton.
It could be that it is the border delays by rail make it noncompetitive.
Amtrak-VIA cancelled their daily Chicaco-Toronto (via Port Huron) train years ago. What has changed since then?
Makes perfect sense. Trains crossed borders in Europe with minimal to no delays for decades (before the current status with open borders). Passport and customs checks all done in the moving train. Even when the Wall separated East and West Germany, the stops were minimal. Of course, here in the US, politicians are not talking about making it easier to cross the border…
Fast trains Chicago to Detroit should have an extension to Toronto and Buffalo. This service would probably be a joint project with VIA. Southern Ontario has a population in the range of 10 million. The train service would be through the Windsor-Detroit tunnel as CPR and NYC did in the past.
The problem is inspection time spent crossing the border. Passing through the border at Niagra Falls takes two hours, making a Toronto to Buffalo trip over five hours. That's travel time to go 113 miles. There has to be a way to cross the border without spending two hours doing. The car bridge at most crossings has a very short time frame. There has to be a way do bring this time frame to the trains. If not forget about the trains. Amtrak/VIA would get a major market: Chicago-Detroit-Toronto.
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