schlimm According to the timetable, the border formalities were only 30-40 minutes at Sarnia/Port Huron back in late 1988...
According to the timetable, the border formalities were only 30-40 minutes at Sarnia/Port Huron back in late 1988...
I crossed the Port Huron/Sarnia border by train in 1990. When I first thought about it I guessed it took about 45 min, but rounded it up to 1 hour. I may have lost track of time because of some concerns I had about getting across. Before I boarded the train, the Amtrak agent told me I should have a birth certificate or they might put me off the train. With travel arrangements already made, I boarded the train and hoped for the best. At the border, two customs agents came down the car, one on each side. The young agent on the other side insisted on birth certificates from all passengers. The older agent on my side accpted my drivers license. I don't think the border agents feel constrained by any train schedule. I have not subjected myself to a rail border crossing since then (altough I technically did cross the border into Canada on the WP&Y atop White Pass, but the border agents did not bother to check there, and trips to the pass were exempt. Nevertheless, I carried my new passport just in case.)
I've lived in both Chicago and the Toronto area, have ridden the old GT overnight train in the 60's, the Via/Amtrak Pt. Huron train in the '90's, the remaining Toronto-New York City Amtrak train in recent years, and have given this a lot of thought.
In today's Customs & Immigration climate, through Chicago-Toronto trains are a bad idea, because the border crossing is mid-point in the run. One little glitch with one problem passenger delays the whole train (same for Toronto-NYC, actually). Vancouver and Montreal work because they're close enough to the border that you can handle it the same as the airlines do, with C&I clearance at an end point, where only the problem passenger is inconvenienced rather than everyone. I believe the two countries' authorities just recently inked a deal to do this in Montreal, which will see Amtrak service return to that city as a result.
At Detroit/Windsor, (and Niagara Falls/Niagara Falls, hah) what is needed is one 'union' terminal on one side of the border or the other, where all Via and Amtrak trains terminate and C&I officials of both countries are on site. This would be a great use for the old Michigan Central Station in Detroit; or it could easily be accomplished in a new facility built in the yard just outside the tunnel in Windsor. At Niagara Falls, both the existing VIA and Amtrak stations are just steps from the Rainbow Bridge, so either could work.
Handling C&I clearance on board a train, either moving or stopped, is a very bad idea. I realized that recently when overhearing every word of a conversation between the immigration officer and the passenger in the seat across from me (total stranger). Clearance facilities at highway crossings and airports are set up so that never happens. It's important from both a privacy and a security perspective. What if the stranger in the seat next to me turns out to be desperate or crazy and pulls a weapon? Dangerous confrontations happen more often than you might think at border crossings, and I don't want to be that close to the action.
Most people using the through trains I've ridden between Toronto and NY/Chicago are travelling to points on their own side of the border. These trains' occupancy is at the lowest point when it crosses the border. If Amtrak and Via could agree on a joint border terminal, then focus on increasing speed and frequency of their own trains to and from it, passengers wanting to connect between the two would be best served.
I'm also curious why Amtrak could not train a few conductors or onboard service personell to also be deputized U.S. Customs Agents? Wouldn't that help with speed and efficiency here.
On the expanded underwater Detroit River Tunnel.....might be good news for the two level Midwest Cars that are comming.
On the new location of Windsor Station, I thought they moved it closer to Johnny Walker as stated above. So yes that is another complication. I seem to remember the CP exiting the tunnels and making a straight shot out of town whereas the CN line curves in from the Northeast to Windsor and heads to the former ferry slips? Been a while since I have been there.
Also for those that do not know between Windsor and the rail junction at Hamilton, ONT almost all the way to Toronto.............not a whole lot of population and the countryside looks pretty desolate as far as houses and barns. I never rode the VIA route and see there are some towns along that route but they do not look very large. So I think the big passenger loadings would be Chicago, Detroit and Toronto. I don't think you would lose a lot of revenue cutting out the stops in between and speeding up the train.
Not a lot of people between Windsor and Hamilton? London at nearly 500,000 not big enough for you? Also Ingersoll, Cambridge, Kitchener-Waterloo, Chatham, Guelph, St. Thomas... between them, several hundred thousand more. Not all these cities are right on the line, but would be less than an hours' drive from a station.
If you've gotten this impression from driving the 401 highway, it's understandable. It skirts all these cities and runs through the lightly populated countryside.
CMStPnP I'm also curious why Amtrak could not train a few conductors or onboard service personell to also be deputized U.S. Customs Agents? Wouldn't that help with speed and efficiency here.
Immigration and Customs Inspectors are sworn (and armed) law enforcement officers so this idea is a non-starter.
Having served many years ago as a seasonal Immigration Inspector, I get the impression that most people have little to no concept of what the position actually entails. They are responsible to ensure that all entrants have the proper documentation and that the proper customs duties are calculated and collected. None of this is as easy as it sounds.
i just relocated from the Detroit/Flint area after living there since 1997. The biggest problem holding back rail travel in both cities is the lack of secure parking, especially for overnight travel. Autos left in station area parking at Detroit, Pontiac or Flint are definitely at risk. Royal Oak, Durand and Lapeer parking is limited to none and with inadequate security. Only Dearborn has safe parking and is right behind the police station. Travel to Dearborn from east metro Detroit or Flint is very inconvenient. Fix parking first to get a significant rider increase.
A semblance of Chicago-Toronto service once existed, until the early 2000's, but the Customs delays killed it. Both national governments would have to make resolving the Customs issues a priority for it to go ahead, and, at the moment, the Canadian government in particular isn't interested in money-losing VIA.
FM56 i just relocated from the Detroit/Flint area after living there since 1997. The biggest problem holding back rail travel in both cities is the lack of secure parking, especially for overnight travel. Autos left in station area parking at Detroit, Pontiac or Flint are definitely at risk. Royal Oak, Durand and Lapeer parking is limited to none and with inadequate security. Only Dearborn has safe parking and is right behind the police station. Travel to Dearborn from east metro Detroit or Flint is very inconvenient. Fix parking first to get a significant rider increase.
That probably explains why Via seems happy with the present situation, in which their Detroit-area passengers drive across the border on their own and leave their vehicles in Windsor, which doesn't have as many security issues. Still, Michigan-based ridership was quite substantial for VIA back when passports weren't required and the Canadian dollar was below 70 cents US. It's dropped enough since then that VIA train lengths and, I think, even frequencies, were reduced. The status quo could be improved on.
CMStPnP On the new location of Windsor Station, I thought they moved it closer to Johnny Walker as stated above.
On the new location of Windsor Station, I thought they moved it closer to Johnny Walker as stated above.
Yes, the new VIA station is adjacent to the Johnny Walker Distillery which is also next to the former CN Station site VIA had always used.
CN relocated their Windsor station from the ferry slips downtown to the ‘Walkerville’ site in the early 1960s.
Also for those that do not know between Windsor and the rail junction at Hamilton, ONT almost all the way to Toronto.............not a whole lot of population and the countryside looks pretty desolate as far as houses and barns........ I never rode the VIA route and see there are some towns along that route but they do not look very large.
Huh?? ….desolate??......I don’t think you know the area either to be describing it to others!....and towns not very large?.... perhaps not in Texas but here we would consider London with a half-million a pretty good size town!
In the 225 miles between Windsor and Toronto, you have Chatham (104,000) London (500,000) Woodstock (40,000) Brantford (135,000) and then at Hamilton you hit what is known as the Golden Horseshoe around the western end of Lake Ontario…pop; 8.7 million..
And if the train was to take the north line between London and Toronto like the former International did…..throw in an additional half million for Kitchener-Waterloo and 150,000 for Guelph.
Windsor-Toronto has 4 trains a day each way (total 8) then at London the midway point add an additional 3 each way.
MidlandMike ghCBNS, I lived in Kalamazoo in 1974, and was unaware of the Buffalo-Detroit ATK service. Did it extend past Detroit to Chicago? Why and when did the service end?
ghCBNS, I lived in Kalamazoo in 1974, and was unaware of the Buffalo-Detroit ATK service. Did it extend past Detroit to Chicago? Why and when did the service end?
The Buffalo-Detroit train originally started as an extension of the Empire State Express then was renamed the Niagara Rainbow. Service ended in 1979 when Michigan stopped funding of the service.
Here’s a link to a 1976 schedule from the “Museum of Railway Timetables”
http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19760425&item=0035
MidlandMike Amtrak-VIA cancelled their daily Chicaco-Toronto (via Port Huron) train years ago. What has changed since then?
Amtrak-VIA cancelled their daily Chicaco-Toronto (via Port Huron) train years ago. What has changed since then?
MidlandMike Amtrak-VIA cancelled their daily Chicaco-Toronto (via Port Huron) train years ago. What has changed since then? That train was cancelled because border formalities made it too slow to be competitive. Back in the 1960s I remember when border formalities in both directions were conducted on board the train between Chicago and Toronto and also between New York and Montreal. Why can't we resume that practice in North America so we can be as civilized as the Europeans?
"Why can't we resume that practice in North America so we can be as civilized as the Europeans?"
First of all, I'll point out that (until the recent refugee crisis you may be reading about in the news) the members of the European Community did away with internal border checks entirely years ago. That's why you can cross in such a civilized fashion from, say, Italy into Austria and on into Germany. We never had that between the U.S. and Canada; there was always some sort of border check, although it was usually more perfunctory than it is today.
As to why we can't go back to those days, I'll avoid using the x-word and will try not to get into politics other than to point out that it wasn't Canada that insisted on requiring passports at the US-Canada border, and if the US wanted to return to the old regimen you wouldn't hear much complaining from north of the border.
And finally, as to the practice of handling customs and immigration checks on board a train, I've just clipped and pasted my point from an earlier post.
"Handling C&I clearance on board a train, either moving or stopped, is a very bad idea. I realized that recently when overhearing every word of a conversation between the immigration officer and the passenger in the seat across from me (total stranger). (This was at Niagara Falls on the Toronto-New York 'Maple Leaf'.) Clearance facilities at highway crossings and airports are set up so that never happens. It's important from both a privacy and a security perspective. What if the stranger in the seat next to me turns out to be desperate or crazy and pulls a weapon? Dangerous confrontations happen more often than you might think at border crossings, and I don't want to be that close to the action."
I have heard every word between an inspector and a passenger across the aisle from my wife and me when the train was stopped when I was on the way from Montreal to Rennselaer. How is that different from hearing every word when the train is in motion?
Johnny
CNSFIt's not different at all. Stopped or moving isn't the point; the point is that it's a breach of privacy, and potentially unsafe. You certainly don't overhear other people's interrogations at airport or highway border crossings anymore, and customs and immigration officials are armed for a reason.
In 1969, I rode, overnight, in a Slumbercoach from New York City to Detroit. I was not waked when we entered Canada after leaving Buffalo, nor did I have to stop for customs in Detroit.
As to "one customs station" at Niagara Falls, perhaps it could be in Ontario since the train passes from Amtrak to Via and the reverse on the Ontario side.
As long as the current national paranoia about secure borders continues, border crossings are not going to get any easier.
CNSF "Why can't we resume that practice in North America so we can be as civilized as the Europeans?" First of all, I'll point out that (until the recent refugee crisis you may be reading about in the news) the members of the European Community did away with internal border checks entirely years ago. That's why you can cross in such a civilized fashion from, say, Italy into Austria and on into Germany. We never had that between the U.S. and Canada; there was always some sort of border check, although it was usually more perfunctory than it is today. As to why we can't go back to those days, I'll avoid using the x-word and will try not to get into politics other than to point out that it wasn't Canada that insisted on requiring passports at the US-Canada border, and if the US wanted to return to the old regimen you wouldn't hear much complaining from north of the border. And finally, as to the practice of handling customs and immigration checks on board a train, I've just clipped and pasted my point from an earlier post. "Handling C&I clearance on board a train, either moving or stopped, is a very bad idea. I realized that recently when overhearing every word of a conversation between the immigration officer and the passenger in the seat across from me (total stranger). (This was at Niagara Falls on the Toronto-New York 'Maple Leaf'.) Clearance facilities at highway crossings and airports are set up so that never happens. It's important from both a privacy and a security perspective. What if the stranger in the seat next to me turns out to be desperate or crazy and pulls a weapon? Dangerous confrontations happen more often than you might think at border crossings, and I don't want to be that close to the action." In the first place, CNSF, I am just as Canadian as you are, so don't blame me for the American obsession with security. But in the second place, I don't understand your concern for privacy. Even if someone did overhear that I had exceeded my customs duty exemption or whatever, so what? That would be far better than having to get off the train at Niagara Falls (Ontario), wade through the snow that no one bothered to shovel off the platform, and stand in a cold drafty station for the better part of an hour while the customs inspectors did their business, which is precisely what happened to me the last time I crossed the border by train.
So, just take the train from Chicago to Port Huron, get off, get a cab or bus, cross the bridge to Sarnia, get back on a train. No one will hear anything and we won't need to change anything. See, problem solved!!!!
And, of course, with the current service you spend a night in either Port Huron or Sarnia.
WE NEED SPEL CZECH!!
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