Korea opens another section of HSR
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/high-speed/single-view/view/honam-high-speed-railway-inaugurated.html
"HSR around the world. Korea opens another section of HSR"
It would be even greater if more forum members would be happy if the headline were "HSR around the US. [choose a state] opens another section of HSR."
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Well I can't speak for Korea but China I think overdid it with HSR and was just using it as a jobs program. I think it will be a long time before China sees the return on investment it spent on HSR.
Japan opens another HSR line revised national timetables
http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/asia/new-japanese-timetable-heralds-major-changes.html?channel=540
CMStPnP Well I can't speak for Korea but China I think overdid it with HSR and was just using it as a jobs program. I think it will be a long time before China sees the return on investment it spent on HSR.
Based on what? Try hanging out in the Shanghai, Beijing or Hangzhou stations and observe.
schlimmTry hanging out in the Shanghai, Beijing or Hangzhou stations and observe.
But we all know that patronage doesn't tell us much, if anything, about practical return on investment! If we looked at the traffic on the New York Connecting Railroad we might think there's plenty of profit. But even more cost ... and then factor in what will be involved with the Portal project, the Gateway tunnels, and the renovations in the North River tunnels.
I have not seen reliable numbers on the cost of the Chinese HSR system, but I suspect he is justified in thinking it will be a 'long time' before revenue from HSR pays back its capital cost ... let alone a fair measure of opportunity cost involved in its allocation of capital.
Not that there is anything wrong with building HSR as a 'jobs program', especially if it's using so much of the money from our balance-of-trade deficit... in ways that do not involve purchasing our real-estate or productive capability, etc. Wish it would work here. (Wish the Chinese could be inveigled into paying to build it here...)
Wizlish schlimm Try hanging out in the Shanghai, Beijing or Hangzhou stations and observe. But we all know that patronage doesn't tell us much, if anything, about practical return on investment! If we looked at the traffic on the New York Connecting Railroad we might think there's plenty of profit. But even more cost ... and then factor in what will be involved with the Portal project, the Gateway tunnels, and the renovations in the North River tunnels. I have not seen reliable numbers on the cost of the Chinese HSR system, but I suspect he is justified in thinking it will be a 'long time' before revenue from HSR pays back its capital cost ... let alone a fair measure of opportunity cost involved in its allocation of capital. Not that there is anything wrong with building HSR as a 'jobs program', especially if it's using so much of the money from our balance-of-trade deficit... in ways that do not involve purchasing our real-estate or productive capability, etc. Wish it would work here. (Wish the Chinese could be inveigled into paying to build it here...)
schlimm Try hanging out in the Shanghai, Beijing or Hangzhou stations and observe.
There are other ways of measuring ROI besides revenue or profit as a percentage of funds invested in a project, particularly when infrastructure and public services and indirect benefits are included in the numerator.
schlimmBased on what? Try hanging out in the Shanghai, Beijing or Hangzhou stations and observe.
Based on many of the Chinese who live there saying so. In fact if the government would allow an opinion poll on the matter I think you would see that most Chinese feel HSR benefits the upper class and tourists more than it does them.
It's one of those minor problems you have when you do not have representative government. Government does what it thinks is best and it might appear to be the best but it falls far short of what the mass of people wanted.
Somewbat akin to the rubber tired Mexico City Metro system, yes a lot of people ride it (due to no other alternative) but if you ask the average Mexican on the street what they think.........they do not like it and wish the government spent the money on either a more advanced and cleaner system or on an alternative means.
The decision to buy the rubber tired metro system was not based on opinion poll or plebicite, bond issue voted on, etc. It was just one government planner who thought he knew what was best for Mexico City pushing the plan through.
CMStPnP Based on many of the Chinese who live there saying so. In fact if the government would allow an opinion poll on the matter I think you would see that most Chinese feel HSR benefits the upper class and tourists more than it does them.
Again, based on what? You said correctly there are no opinion polls on that. [There are plenty of opinion polls for market research, BTW.] So what is your source? Mine is based on personal observations as well as discussions with many Chinese friends.
Also stated earlier the Chinese trainsets were reverse engineered from the French and Germans and few believed me....
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-Pacific/2015/0217/China-s-high-speed-rail-All-dressed-up-with-no-place-to-sell
World Bank Study:
http://www-wds.worldbank.org/external/default/WDSContentServer/WDSP/IB/2014/12/16/000406484_20141216102415/Rendered/PDF/932270BRI0Box30ffic020140final000EN.pdf
The first article invokes "making an operating profit" as though that were the most important attribute. That is a typical, but false assumption, especially when all benefits are taken into account. The article does give support to the idea that HSR makes sense only in shrter, densely populated corridors. In the US, that remains the east coast (not just NEC), CA, possibly TX and some midwestern routes. Less than high speed (LHSR) might have additional corridors to link.
The second confirms what I have said. The HSR (CHR) in China is very heavily patronized and not just by the wealthy, which should be obvious, given the numbers cited.
schlimm The first article invokes "making an operating profit" as though that were the most important attribute. That is a typical, but false assumption, especially when all benefits are taken into account. The article does give support to the idea that HSR makes sense only in shrter, densely populated corridors. In the US, that remains the east coast (not just NEC), CA, possibly TX and some midwestern routes. Less than high speed (LHSR) might have additional corridors to link. The second confirms what I have said. The HSR (CHR) in China is very heavily patronized and not just by the wealthy, which should be obvious, given the numbers cited.
Lets see I believe there was even a graph in there that only 13% of the HSR traffic came from the automobile, the rest was bus, air and conventional trains running on the same route. In fact I think the study pointed out that most of the traffic growth of HSR was not from other modes but from HSR riders taking multiple instead of single trips.
Yes it does make a difference if the service shows a profit. I know that some political persuasions believe that money grows on trees and you only need to run out to the backyard and pluck a few dollars off (or you just raises taxes in perpetuity....a strategy that got Illinois, especially Chicago in the current trouble it is in today).
However, the reality is either profits have to pay for expansion or your going into debt financing expansion with no financial return. Debt has a nasty habbit of slowly accumulating and building along with debt service payments to support it. While not really mentioned in the above articles it is clearly mentioned in the below article what impact this disregard for debt in exchange for HSR construction might have on China as well as demonstrating the impact on the airlines as well....
http://www.sabreairlinesolutions.com/pdfs/ChallengesinChina.pdf
In 2025, China will have a state-of-the-art 21st century infrastructure to support the largest economy in the world, while we...........
schlimm In 2025, China will have a state-of-the-art 21st century infrastructure to support the largest economy in the world, while we...........
... will have an even larger military budget than we do now.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
China has a whole host of issues that the United States does not have. Including the following:
1. Aging Demographic with no meaningful younger demographic to replace it.
2. Lack of the ability to innovate and create their own designs without reverse engineering.....demonstrated most vividly in the lack of patents. Even the Chinese have mentioned this internally among Communist Party members that it threatens the future.
3. Lack of representative government.
4. Fairly severe pollution and environmental issues.
5. Seem to be hell bent on atagonizing their neighbors with brute military displays and land grabs.
......just to name a few.
IMO the 800# bear in China is the lack of roads and automobiles. Road lane miles per capital is probably very much less than the USA. Even the NEC may have many more lane miles than China. Any one have access to the figures ?
Streak,
You hit the nail on the head. In that context investment in rail is probably the most economical choice, even in a communist country.
We choose to invest in the interstate highways and junk our railroads. Fourtunately private management managed to save much of the freight network.
Mac
blue streak 1 IMO the 800# bear in China is the lack of roads and automobiles. Road lane miles per capital is probably very much less than the USA. Even the NEC may have many more lane miles than China. Any one have access to the figures ?
schlimm blue streak 1 IMO the 800# bear in China is the lack of roads and automobiles. Road lane miles per capital is probably very much less than the USA. Even the NEC may have many more lane miles than China. Any one have access to the figures ? As is typical with regard to China, many folk's impressions are based on conditions 10-20 years ago. As of 2014, China had the most miles of expressway of any nation in the world (69,560 mi) while the US had 47,856 Ditto with the number of vehicles: 240 million (120 million autos) as of the end of 2012. In the US in 2012, the total was 254 million vehicles.
Schlimm: As asked the question was to compare " lane miles "
Also the population of China is how many times that of the USA. Third we should have a comparsion of the expressway connections between major cities.
CMStPnP if you ask the average Mexican on the street what they think.........they do not like it and wish the government spent the money on either a more advanced and cleaner system or on an alternative means.
if you ask the average Mexican on the street what they think.........they do not like it and wish the government spent the money on either a more advanced and cleaner system or on an alternative means.
I know I'm picking a minor nit in an off topic item, but since when has the Mexico City subway been considered dirty? The photos I've seen show it to be a lot cleaner than my beloved home city Philadelphia's subway.
Patrick Boylan
Free yacht rides, 27' sailboat, zip code 19114 Delaware River, get great Delair bridge photos from the river. Send me a private message
blue streak 1Schlimm: As asked the question was to compare " lane miles " Also the population of China is how many times that of the USA. Third we should have a comparsion of the expressway connections between major cities.
I do not now how many road lanes there are in China or the US. Do you? Maybe you should look it up since that is so important to you. You originally said: " IMO the 800# bear in China is the lack of roads and automobiles." which says just that, that there are few [modern] roads or automobiles. I really do not know what your point is. China has 4X as many people but a similar area, 3.7 mil. sq. miles vs US 3.6 mil. sq. miles..
Blue Streak asked for figures. Schlimm provided figures. Supposedly these figures aren't right, or maybe they are.
"Lane-miles" per capita doesn't tell us anything meaningful. First we need a definition of what 'expressway' actually means -- I propose it means at least two lanes each way, median-separated (and largely grade-separated with interchanges rather than traffic-controlled intersections). Number of lanes above this might be valuable for determining congestion, but we're using the discussion to determine how much of an alternative to HSR is provided by the 'expressway' network.
I would also be interested to see the extent (if any) to which the Chinese highway system resembles much of the United States in having an older system of slower roads (both 2-lane and multiple-lane to lower standards) in parallel with the 'interstate'-style expressway system. I suspect most of the Chinese long-distance road network is new build to fairly modern standards.
Another question is that the discussion of HSR vs. road really applies only to the areas where significant traffic exists. Again that's not a 'per capita' (note sp.) metric. I don't know how many of the Chinese automobiles are actually driven long distances over the road network, but surely those data exist.
But to paraphrase Nigel Day: Less words, more data.
Spain opens another section of HSR of 155 Km.
http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/high-speed/spain-inaugurates-galicia-high-speed-line.html?channel=523
SBB has started tests thru the Gotthard tunnel 200 KPH / ~ 125 MPH. Article indicates how much work still needed for 2016 roll out of service.
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/traction-rolling-stock/single-view/view/sbb-prepares-for-gotthard-base-tunnel-opening.html
blue streak 1 Spain opens another section of HSR of 155 Km. http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/high-speed/spain-inaugurates-galicia-high-speed-line.html?channel=523
The top speed on that line is 200 km/h, eventually rising to 250 km/h.
As per Table 1-6 of National Transportation Statistics, at the end of 2013 the U.S. had 8,656,070 estimated roadway lane miles excluding National Park and Forest roads. Of this amount 2,640,861 miles or 30.5 per cent were ubran and 6,015,209 or 69.5 per cent were rural.
Just 2.5 per cent of the lane miles were part of the Interstate Highway System, although to hear some folks tell it, interstate highways dominate the country's road system.
At the end of 2013 the Interstate Highway System had 219,797 lane miles combining into 47,856 miles of highway.
The Interstate Highway System does not contain the only expressway miles in the U.S. For example, TX130, which runs from Georgetown to Seguin Texas, is not part of the interstate system, but it is definitely expressway. The speed limits vary from 80 mph to 85 mph.
Sam1As per Table 1-6 of National Transportation Statistics, at the end of 2013 the U.S. had 8,656,070 estimated roadway lane miles excluding National Park and Forest roads. Of this amount 2,640,861 miles or 30.5 per cent were ubran and 6,015,209 or 69.5 per cent were rural. Just 2.5 per cent of the lane miles were part of the Interstate Highway System, although to hear some folks tell it, interstate highways dominate the country's road system. At the end of 2013 the Interstate Highway System had 219,797 lane miles combining into 47,856 miles of highway. The Interstate Highway System does not contain the only expressway miles in the U.S. For example, TX130, which runs from Georgetown to Seguin Texas, is not part of the interstate system, but it is definitely expressway. The speed limits vary from 80 mph to 85 mph.
This successfully introduces data which say nothing about the original point or the original question, and now introduces another consideration which was intentionally not incorporated in the original discussion (whether only "Interstate" lane miles count as 'expressways')
The discussion was only concerned with the 'lanes' that are directly comparable to HSR service in producing minimum travel time over appropriate distance.
I have no idea (perhaps schlimm does) whether anything less than a grade-separated, four-lane road (with or without median separation, which many Autobahns and the Pennsylvania Turnpike did not consider necessary for high speed) provides a workable high-speed alternative to HSR in whatever passes for remote or unpopulated regions of China. But I would find it unlikely, particularly if so much of the intercity road construction for automobile use is as recent as schlimm said it was.
Go back to your sources and report the lane-mileage of four-lane or greater grade-separated roads. That will at least be a meaningful start on meaningful statistics and not just a data dump. I recognize there will be a number of cases where multiple-lane highways that are not largely grade-separated can support high-speed traffic, but imho there will be a large lane-mileage of roads that, as in Memphis, are two-lane roads that were increased to four or six lanes for traffic reasons but are neither intended nor engineered for high-speed traffic even though many are nominally median-separated. They aren't expressways and shouldn't be 'counted' in the context of the discussion schlimm was proposing.
What's with the "Chicago passes taxes in perpetuity"?
Chicago has no income tax, my annual property tax on my Michigan Ave condo is less than 1% of what I paid for it, and the state income tax is 3.75%, less than any of the adjoining states.
Not wanting to start a fight but I doubt CMStPnP has ever traveled much outside of the USA. He makes a lot of comments that seem either made up or seriously out of date. My only complaint about the Mexico City subway is it is way over crowded, it's such a huge success. It's not dirty at all. And the trains in China are also crowded and very fast and spotlessly clean, like Japan. There is such a bias against HSR that I can only conclude that some people must be absolutely terrified by it, although God only know what they're afraid of. Maybe there are more like my cousin from Texas who refused to ride on the Acela with me when visiting Boston because she found out it went 150 mph! Too scary for her. Her pickup gets scary over 90 mph and that's fast enough for her! And I'm not making this up. Wonder how many think like her?
JL ChicagoNot wanting to start a fight but I doubt CMStPnP has ever traveled much outside of the USA. He makes a lot of comments that seem either made up or seriously out of date. My only complaint about the Mexico City subway is it is way over crowded, it's such a huge success. It's not dirty at all. And the trains in China are also crowded and very fast and spotlessly clean, like Japan.
Or it could be that I actually interact with locals as a Business Consultant should and I actually read the English version of the Global Times of China on occassion as well as subscribing to the UK Economist and reading it as well. All of them cover HSR and do not write about it as if they are in the fog of a controlled substance. I know for a lot of Americans one news source or a group of one sides news sources is enough. However, I try to search for the truth.
Never been to China but I have lived in Nothern Germany and traveled in Europe many times, my last trip being in 2000 and next trip being next year. My last trip to Mexico was December 2012 and I ate primarily in Mexico City Casitas vs the American Tourist hangouts......you can buy a full multi-course lunch in Mexico City for less than $6 at a Casita. The locals know where to go that you will not get sick but most Americans are too afraid to even try it or even ask. Heck if you read an on board forum in the United States about Mexico City it's riddled with paniced people thinking if they travel there the drug gangs will get them.
The rubber tired Mexico City Tram is considered a waste of money by the Middle Class Mexicans living in Mexico City that I worked with. Yes, people ride it but usually not liking the ride, the mode or the destinations. I am sure some Americans love it BUT they do not live there and nor do they need it. I also rode the private - public bus system in Mexico City....not because i wanted to but because the Mexicans I was with wanted to show me how crappy it was compared to what we have in the United States. Again I am sure it looked impressive to American tourists but I am not sure how many really had the courage to actually ride it versus taking pictures from the street.
Just trying to be realistic when presenting opinions.
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