Those in power decree the success or failure of experiments, no matter what reality may indicate.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Carl, you are right on. Sure thier are many ways for a creative passenger to bring or make a meal on board, but if I have to resort to brown bagging it on any long distance train, then I am out.
I have no issue paying a higher fare for a good meal. From almost the beginning of long distances trains railroads prided them self's and built a tradition of good food and good service. Most first class passenger's have no trouble paying for it or even a bit more for the service. For those who can't or won't the lounge car is available. Hey these are my feelings and perceptions of what is of value for me.
With respect to Fred Frailey's thoughts on a no-diner SILVER STAR (which I firmly believe/hope were somewhat tongue in cheek) there is more to this than just food. If Amtrak can get away with a snack-only 31 hour long-haul train why bother with new diners? And if there is no need for diners why bother with added sleepers either? Those annoying First Class riders will just want services!
I deeply hope I'm wrong about the VIEWLINER II car order, but something is certainly amiss there and it's not just the builder's (CAF) fault. Quoted from the Trains Magazine site: The problem with the SILVER STAR food "experiment" is the cafe-lounge menu being offered, which contains only sandwiches and snacks for both lunch and dinner and at breakfast only the "AmMcMuffin" and packaged sweet rolls/donuts. No plated meals, no quality salads, nothing fresh--and this on a potentially 31 hour run.No "experiment" needs be completed to determine that sleeping car riders at least won't like this! They may intially think, "Great deal--lower room charges", but the bloom will fade fast from the rose when they go into an Amfleet II Cafe-lounge with most tables occupied by computer users and/or drinkers--served by only one attendant and discover the menu offers nothing even remotely good for a New York-Miami trip encompassing two lunches, a breakfast and a dinner.If this was meant as a fair "test", a menu and service model similar to the diner-light service on the CARDINAL would have been offered. There at least passengers can get a ecent plated meal based on the ACELA "Fist Class" model. As it stands this travesty on the SILVER STAR should ultimately devastate sleeper business on 91&92, and Amtrak has to know this going in!Are we doomed to replay the 1960s? This recalls the SP "economy" moves in the late 1960s, when the SUNSET LIMITED lost both diner and lounge car service from New Orleans to El Paso in favor of only the vending machine only "Automat" car. Shock, the sleepers also ended up gone.The SP then tried to pull the emasculated SUNSET off. The irony was that this ultimate SP outrage backfired. The ICC ultimately not only turned down the SP train-off request, but ordered a diner-lounge car and sleepers back on the train (and on all other long-distance services over 12 hours nationwide), resulting in the railroad outcry that helped to start the move to establish Amtrak (also very much supported/enhanced by the more understandable carrier outrage/desperation over the impact of lost mail/express revenue on passenger service with the 1967-68 switch to all air/truck mail service).It was good to hear from the just-completed April NARP meeting in Washington that Amtrak's Joe McHugh still claims Amtrak will proceed to take delivery of the VIEWLINER II sleepers and diners, because I am beginning to wonder about this. When will Amtrak announce a new/clear delivery date for the VIEWLINER II cars actually intended to carry and serve people, as opposed to baggatge? The fact that months after their delivery by CAF to Amtrak the two prototype diner/sleeper cars remain stored, and that two years after the scheduled delivery date for the full order we still have no idea when the remaining 24 diners, 24 sleepers, and the 15 crew-dorm baggage cars might be delivered, raises very real questions about whether Amtrak still has the intention to complete this order.Gossip blames "supply-line" problems at the builder, CAF, for the long-delays, yet the prototypes were delivered, so what really is CAF's responsibility?If the "no diner" SILVER STAR "works" why would Amtrak need a new fleet of dining cars? After all it can then say "didn't 91 & 92 prove a cafe-lounge/snack service was enough". And if the revised SILVER STAR's sleeper revenue collapses, but coach revenue on the train holds up--why bother to take delivery of new sleepers either?Amtrak has been remarkably silent about the status of the VIEWLINER II order and at best amazingly passive in view of it's late completion--unless of course the Boardman Amtrak is quite satisfied with the process. At best Amtrak has so far avoided paying for cars it may no longer want. At worst this could be a slow-walk intended to justify a car-order cancellation, blaming the builder and "changed circumstances". I hope not and will be thrilled if these turn out to be completely unfounded fears, but something clearly is wrong in this car-procurement process.Boardman promised Congressman Mica no food-service losses in five years (from a year past). This is almost certainly impossible if Amtrak provides any sort of decent food-service and the fact that Amtrak did not have the courage to make this point is deeply disturbing. We know from history what happens when service is dramatically downgraded on long-distance trains (1960s--SP. Frisco, Southern, Rock Island, Katy, etc). Patronage collapses and then the carrier "reluctantly" seeks a train-off. Those who forget history are condemned to repeat it!Do we as Amtrak riders really believe a national network could survive with only microwaved sandwiches as lunch and dinner and muffin sandwiches lor sweet rolls as breakfast on trains like the SILVER STAR or even more importantly on the CZ or the EMPIRE BUILDER? The inevitable outcome of such a process is the loss of the true national network and a series of disconnected corridors subject to state support only. No Amtrak without a true national network could ever win a vote in Congress.So there is more to worry about in the SILVER STAR case than just what food to carry aboard to avoid the cafe-lounge menu. This "experiment" had better fail, because if Amtrak thinks it was a success the survival of train travel nationally is in profound jeapardy. On any run with an overnight schedule decent food service is an essential.
Carl Fowler
schlimm (quoting Fred)So come to my rescue, my fellow food lovers. I board at 3 p.m. I’m bringing dinner to eat that evening, plus breakfast and lunch the next day. What is both delicious and guaranteed safe to eat that night and the next day?
Two peripheral things come to mind:
One is that these trains should be equipped with microwave ovens, probably with enough sophistication in their power settings and cycle controls to make reheating even fairly delicate items a possibility. Failing that, I have seen small microwave ovens (made for the over-the-road truckers' market) that could be adapted to be packed in a carryon and used in a sleeper accommodation...
The other is that insulation and Peltier cooling/heating are now so good that a small and comparatively cheap 'powered cooler' could be brought along -- one of those "six-pack sized" units might be enough for the "perishable" constituents of a number of meals, and an adapter to plug into the 110V outlet in a modern Amtrak car keeps things cool as long as necessary.
What I'm now wondering is whether Amtrak might provide different amenities on a 'dinerless' train -- a bank of passenger-accessible and user-friendly microwaves, or refrigerators with individual sections or bins to keep your food (and keep it separate or safe from the usual 'roommates with munchies' issues!).
While this is not necessarily a full analogy, Whole Foods provided a fairly large range of condiments free to its dine-in patrons. Much of the problem with 'portable' meals, especially sandwiches or burgers, is that things like mayo or ketchup can't be put on when made and then left for hours -- but it's inconvenient or expensive to buy and bring along little individual packs, or little travel bottles. Easy, too, for a passenger to mention a special need or want 'ahead of time', let's say for that nectar of the gods Outerbridge's Sherry Peppers Sauce, and have it available on the train ... the bottle then remaining for other passengers, perhaps on many subsequent trips, to try and enjoy...
Now, there was a discussion a while back about 'outsourcing' some of the food service, for example by having passengers 'order ahead' and having something from a restaurant or fast-food chain place delivered to the train at a station stop. Why not extend this to grocery items? You would fill out your list just like ordering in a diner, the results would be (let's say) scanned and e-mailed to a local grocery far enough in advance to assure 100% of the food would be available and fresh at the time even a delayed train gets there, and voila! just the perishable or hot/cold or unintentionally forgotten parts of your 'meal experience' are delivered to the platform...
OPPORTUNITY KNOCKING DEPARTMENT:
Fred's question is a very good theme for a cookbook or recipe-idea collection. Assume you'll be away from home for x days -- what are the meal opportunities, what tips and tricks are there for preparing things in advance and keeping them, etc.? Include a special section on substitute ingredients for things that don't travel well or would involve having to port along complicated equipment to make 'on site'.
schlimm Cuisine aboard the Silver Star Posted by Fred Frailey on Wednesday, April 15, 2015 Amtrak’s experiment with food service on the New York-Miami Silver Star has gotten me thinking about one of my favorite subjects, eating. Having no diner car on a train that at most you will ride for 28 hours is not such a bad thing, I concluded, particularly if you bump the cost of a roomette down by $125 for more. So I challenged myself to plan a trip. I could do it the easy way and visit KFC or Popeye’s, to board with a box of fried chicken, slaw, and mashed potatoes (as if I liked cold mashed potatoes). That’s my dinner, maybe, but what about tomorrow’s breakfast and lunch? I decided I need to be more creative. Let’s say I’m traveling from Alexandria, Va., next to the District of Columbia, to Fort Lauderdale. On my way to the station in Alexandria, I could stop at Balducci’s, an upscale grocery nearby, and assemble my own super-salad with grilled chicken. The dressing packet I could open at dinner time in the roomette. A bottle of Napa Valley Cabernet to accompany this (most wine stores sell stemless plastic wine glasses perfect for such an occasion) will make me superbly serene. A fresh banana and yogurt travel well overnight without refrigeration. Now I have breakfast. It’s lunch the next day that bothers me. I could dip a boneless chicken thigh in flour, egg, and bread crumbs and skillet-fry a sandwich to bring with me. But there is no refrigeration in a roomette, obviously, and do I trust the chicken to be safe to eat 20 hours later? I’m not sure, and the same answer applies to everything else that pops to mind, other than a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. So come to my rescue, my fellow food lovers. I board at 3 p.m. I’m bringing dinner to eat that evening, plus breakfast and lunch the next day. What is both delicious and guaranteed safe to eat that night and the next day?—Fred W. Frailey $125 savings to forego a mediocre to (at best) average set of meals in a dining car sounds like a winner.
Amtrak’s experiment with food service on the New York-Miami Silver Star has gotten me thinking about one of my favorite subjects, eating. Having no diner car on a train that at most you will ride for 28 hours is not such a bad thing, I concluded, particularly if you bump the cost of a roomette down by $125 for more.
So I challenged myself to plan a trip. I could do it the easy way and visit KFC or Popeye’s, to board with a box of fried chicken, slaw, and mashed potatoes (as if I liked cold mashed potatoes). That’s my dinner, maybe, but what about tomorrow’s breakfast and lunch? I decided I need to be more creative.
Let’s say I’m traveling from Alexandria, Va., next to the District of Columbia, to Fort Lauderdale. On my way to the station in Alexandria, I could stop at Balducci’s, an upscale grocery nearby, and assemble my own super-salad with grilled chicken. The dressing packet I could open at dinner time in the roomette. A bottle of Napa Valley Cabernet to accompany this (most wine stores sell stemless plastic wine glasses perfect for such an occasion) will make me superbly serene.
A fresh banana and yogurt travel well overnight without refrigeration. Now I have breakfast.
It’s lunch the next day that bothers me. I could dip a boneless chicken thigh in flour, egg, and bread crumbs and skillet-fry a sandwich to bring with me. But there is no refrigeration in a roomette, obviously, and do I trust the chicken to be safe to eat 20 hours later? I’m not sure, and the same answer applies to everything else that pops to mind, other than a peanut butter and jelly sandwich.
So come to my rescue, my fellow food lovers. I board at 3 p.m. I’m bringing dinner to eat that evening, plus breakfast and lunch the next day. What is both delicious and guaranteed safe to eat that night and the next day?—Fred W. Frailey
$125 savings to forego a mediocre to (at best) average set of meals in a dining car sounds like a winner.
When I was in Mexico City on a project you could buy a green tomale with chicken in it wrapped in foil steaming hot on a street corner at approx 7:00 a.m. as long as you left the foil wrapping on you could eat it safely 12 hours later.......I believe the trick there was the vinegar in the green tamale sauce kept the bacteria out of the chicken. It's a very good meal.
yeah don your right, never did the united states, but leaving for a cruise today. I can tell you I was one the Ss Norway before she had her horrible boiler incident that sent her to breakers. She was a grand old ship, a true ocean liner. If they ever put the ss united states back into service id buy the first ticket.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
ROBERT WILLISON Don, my self I prefer the dining car experience. You get to mingle with other folks, take in the scenery, stretch your leg. For me better than spending the entire trip in my room.
Don, my self I prefer the dining car experience. You get to mingle with other folks, take in the scenery, stretch your leg. For me better than spending the entire trip in my room.
Yes, I agree. Eating in the diner is great for all the reasons you mention. I imagine crossing the Atlantic on the USS United States was pretty great, too.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
My wife and I also had the experience--both ways--five years ago. The lunch (served in the evening) and breakfast are not much, but they are the best that can be expected. We did enjoy the view of the Columbia River.
Johnny
The Portland section of the Empire Builder serves sleeping car passengers in their oom departing from Portland. Which my wife & I exerienced.
The timetable note reads:
Service on the Empire Builder®
Dining: Full meal service. - Not available between Spokane and Portland; Sleeping car passengers will receive complimentary cold meal service.
So it's being done already. My suspicion is, as has been mentioned earlier, that they are short of Heritage diners and this was a way to solve the shortage and experiment on fares and obtain public reaction.
Pure speculation again. The cafe cars in the past have been reported as running out of food before the end of the train's run. Maybe Amtrak could place a pallet(s) of extra food and different choices in the baggage car. Does anyone know if the interior of the new V-2 baggage has an electrical connection(s) for pallet(s) of refrigeration equipment carrying such extra food ?
Let me be clear. I like eating in the diner as much as the next railfan. It's a unique experience.
But....
Last time I rode the Crescent, the folks in two adjacent rooms took all their meal in their room. The attendent fetched it for them.
So, is a diner really necessary? You could serve all sleeper passengers in their rooms.
From what I read here and elsewhere, a big part of the problem is the quality of the food in the lounge car, the mediocre quality in the diner.
So, how about this? For full meals, do it airline style. Put a galley in the lounge car and serve people at their seat/room. For snacks, NC Piedmont style vending machines in the lounge car.
Point well taken
dakotafred Nothing inherently wrong with separating meals from fares, in my opinion, but pulling the full diner is a non sequitur. I hope this is only to show Congress Amtrak is "trying" rather than a template for all future LD services.
Nothing inherently wrong with separating meals from fares, in my opinion, but pulling the full diner is a non sequitur. I hope this is only to show Congress Amtrak is "trying" rather than a template for all future LD services.
I will have to try something else for lunch tomorrow as I go on up to Boston.
So blue streak guess you got it right. The question becomes will this be permenent or just an experiment
Well the speculation appears to have some merit. Amtrak just announced only snack service in the cafe/lounge on the Star thru January 2016. That certainly frees up 4 - 4-1/2 diners needed to cover the dinning car service. Maybe Amtrak expects enough V-2 diners in service by Jan 2016 to restore service ?
http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/68/104/Amtrak-Lower-Sleeping-Car-Fares-to-Florida-ATK-15-022.pdf
blue streak 1 This is pure speculation so take it as such. The monthly performance reports show no Heritage diners having any work done at Beech Grove this physical year. It may be that some Heritage diners will be due some work after July 1st if they were to remain in service. So to avoid that work ( overhaul ? ) Heritage diners will be temporarily removed from the Star allowing for more backup of the remaining dining car routes and maybe retirement of 1 or 2 of the diners. That will allow BG to work on other cars as well as stated in the monthly reports. ?
This is pure speculation so take it as such. The monthly performance reports show no Heritage diners having any work done at Beech Grove this physical year. It may be that some Heritage diners will be due some work after July 1st if they were to remain in service. So to avoid that work ( overhaul ? ) Heritage diners will be temporarily removed from the Star allowing for more backup of the remaining dining car routes and maybe retirement of 1 or 2 of the diners. That will allow BG to work on other cars as well as stated in the monthly reports. ?
Don't go to hard on those vocal new yorkers, they kept seaboad, acl, and scl trains pretty full during the sixies. Supported Amtrak 3 initial offerings down to the sunshine state as well. Today's silver service are well patronized. One would think it would be a good route for the Pullman trains to operate a few cars.
CMStPnP Good Lord, all those overly vocal and opinionated New Yorkers on a sleeperless train......whew! glad I am not an Amtrak employee on it.
Good Lord, all those overly vocal and opinionated New Yorkers on a sleeperless train......whew! glad I am not an Amtrak employee on it.
Think that is bad - view the VRE (Virginia Rail Express), user comments and complaints - what a bunch of whiners.
NARP Blog has statement that Amtrak will release sleepers for reservations next week.
http://www.narprail.org/hotline--blog/hotline-906#comments
This may be a result of the delayed delivery of V-2s especially the diners bumping up against necessary major work on the Heritage diners ?
As well Amtrak may be waiting to see if any V-2 diners might be accepted for unlimited service by July 1 ?
So maybe a diner lite substitution on the Star and reduction of one sleeper from that route and adding it to the Meteor. As said pure speculation.
oltmannd blue streak 1 Got this reply from a source at Trains. Thank you for your inquiry, which was forwarded. Please see the following response author Bob Johnston: (Amtrak spokesman) Marc Magliari told me that Silver Star sleeping car inventory has been temporarily withdrawn from Arrow “connected with equipment manipulation” and it will be put back for all departures within the next couple of days. No plans to drop the service. Sincerely, Now what in the world is " Equipment manipulation " ? Maybe they are replacing sleepers with baggage cars? Better guess: They are dropping a sleeper, perhaps?
blue streak 1 Got this reply from a source at Trains. Thank you for your inquiry, which was forwarded. Please see the following response author Bob Johnston: (Amtrak spokesman) Marc Magliari told me that Silver Star sleeping car inventory has been temporarily withdrawn from Arrow “connected with equipment manipulation” and it will be put back for all departures within the next couple of days. No plans to drop the service. Sincerely, Now what in the world is " Equipment manipulation " ?
Got this reply from a source at Trains.
Maybe they are replacing sleepers with baggage cars? Better guess: They are dropping a sleeper, perhaps?
Granted, people in an industry will develop a language that applies to their work. But, a company that relies on public interaction should not use obscure expressions in its communications with its public--unless it does not want its public to know what is really going on.
A quck Google search gives this for Amtrak's Arrow- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amtrak_Arrow_Reservation_System
Points taken, Patrick!
I assumed Arrow was Amtrak's reservation system. I think I've heard people call it that for many years. I don't call it that, I just say "Amtrak's" or even "the" "reservation system". I've seen many posts, and heard many people even call Amtrak's telephone system "Julie".
Also to whom do you place the blame for saying "arrow" in this case, Train's Bob Johnston or Amtrak spokesman Marc Magliari? The post doesn't clearly show who said "Arrow".
And watch how much the coal tries to say the kettle's a different color. Let he who has not used an obscure or ambiguous railroad or railfan term cast the first piece of ballast.
Patrick Boylan
Free yacht rides, 27' sailboat, zip code 19114 Delaware River, get great Delair bridge photos from the river. Send me a private message
dakotafred And what is "Arrow"? Talk about bureaucratic non-speak! The version of one web site, that the sleeping car is "sold out" for 7 months, is ludicrous.
And what is "Arrow"? Talk about bureaucratic non-speak! The version of one web site, that the sleeping car is "sold out" for 7 months, is ludicrous.
A little plain speech in English would be welcomed.
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