Dumb question: Isn't food and beverage a loss leader on cruise ships and overseas airplane flights ? Any transportation company over 8 hours enroute time wihout food stops certainly seems to have food. Wonder if any of our congress criters would take a 12 hour cruise without food ?
blue streak 1 Dumb question: Isn't food and beverage a loss leader on cruise ships and overseas airplane flights ? Any transportation company over 8 hours enroute time wihout food stops certainly seems to have food. Wonder if any of our congress criters would take a 12 hour cruise without food ?
It appears that many folks do not really understand the concept "loss leader." A loss leader is pricing one item or segment of your offerings to retail customers at or below your cost to attract more customers. But an essential ingredient is that the business overall must be profitable or close enough to breaking even so that the additional customers gained will push the operation into (farther) into blue ink.
Cruise lines and the airlines are mostly profitable, unlike Amtrak.
Amtrak loses a lot of money on LD operations. Cutting charges more or giving away the food, thus using F&B as an even bigger loss leader (it has been running at a loss for Amtrak's entire history) would accomplish nothing but add to the losses. Nobody expects F&B to make a profit, just to cover costs, as it is required to do by federal law.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
schlimm Nobody expects F&B to make a profit, just to cover costs, as it is required to do by federal law.
With the Congress we have now and and those that we have had since I became an adult - I suspect they have passed more 'laws' that can only be violated and not complied with than they have laws that can actually be complied with. WTF there are laws about balanced budgets that haven't be complied with since before I was born.
PTC is a law that will not be complied with by it's effective date for a variety of technological reasons - not from a lack of the carriers trying.
Congress should lock themselves away at Jimmy Hoffa U - for the same reasons Jimmy Hoffa was locked up - racketeering and corruption.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
"A loss leader is pricing one item or segment of your offerings to retail customers at or below your cost to attract more customers. But an essential ingredient is that the business overall must be profitable or close enough to breaking even so that the additional customers gained will push the operation into (farther) into blue ink."
The Federal government pays out more for automobiles accdients outside of insurance programs than all the Highway Trust Fund receipts. Does that mean that Intercity automobile travel was a loss leader to get enough usage on the roads to make them politically safe all at the expense of converting safer common carrier travel to automobile travel?
In regards to passenger intercity trains they have a declining Average Cost curve, so yes encouraging volume by having a relatively minor "loss leader" ($80 million out of the Amtrak budget) does lead to better ecomonics per passenger mile. Don't forget that Amtrak rolls a lot of fixed costs into their monthly numbers. You could see the real numbers in one of the recent 5-year financial reports if you know where to look.
V.Payne "A loss leader is pricing one item or segment of your offerings to retail customers at or below your cost to attract more customers. But an essential ingredient is that the business overall must be profitable or close enough to breaking even so that the additional customers gained will push the operation into (farther) into blue ink." The Federal government pays out more for automobiles accdients outside of insurance programs than all the Highway Trust Fund receipts. Does that mean that Intercity automobile travel was a loss leader to get enough usage on the roads to make them politically safe all at the expense of converting safer common carrier travel to automobile travel? In regards to passenger intercity trains they have a declining Average Cost curve, so yes encouraging volume by having a relatively minor "loss leader" ($80 million out of the Amtrak budget) does lead to better ecomonics per passenger mile. Don't forget that Amtrak rolls a lot of fixed costs into their monthly numbers. You could see the real numbers in one of the recent 5-year financial reports if you know where to look.
CSSHEGEWISCH Dining car costs have always been high, even prior to May 1971. A lot of attempts have been made to get these costs down, ranging from snack bars and galley-lounges to SP's automat cars. The question comes down to what sort of service do you want to provide? A fine dining experience is going to cost a lot to provide but is it what the market really wants?
Dining car costs have always been high, even prior to May 1971. A lot of attempts have been made to get these costs down, ranging from snack bars and galley-lounges to SP's automat cars. The question comes down to what sort of service do you want to provide? A fine dining experience is going to cost a lot to provide but is it what the market really wants?
There has been a sea-change in the restaurant industry in the US since RR attempts at "fixing" F&B costs. It's time to let hostpitality industry experts take care of Amtrak hospitality...for what it's costing Amtrak to provide, riders should expect more than they are getting.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
V.PayneThe Federal government pays out more for automobiles accdients outside of insurance programs than all the Highway Trust Fund receipts.
You've made this claim before. Can you cite any law or policy that states the federal government is paying for medical claims from traffic accidents beyond being the secondary (20%) to auto insurance through Medicare and Medicaid? Paying more than the auto insurance companies?
Sure have, and a link was posted in the past instances as well.
Here is one version from USDOT/ NHTSA in 2015:
http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/812013.pdf other calculations record cost to governments outside of insurance payments (general fund draws) at $0.02 to $0.03/automobile mile, the average State and Federal gas tax brings in less than $0.02/automobile mile on a highway. I didn't say the government pays more than others, just that it is more than the Highway Trust Fund take.
The real losers however are motorists themselves as they rarely have enough insurance to make them whole. As an example, I have the recommended disability policy to cover lost income and it is three times my automobile insurance cost, though automobile accidents are a large causation factor. Should I go without and become disabled in a car wreck the state would be on the hook though Medicaid for example after my bankruptcy.
This led to the loss leader comment, the U.S. pays for automobile accident costs to governments out of a separate general fund so the Highway Trust Fund could spend anything at all, defying private company norms where liability would have to first be met prior to investment.
So if the U.S. pays for a meal to induce me off the road, and this avoids the accident costs borne by the general fund and a much larger private economy loss, why would this not be equally as good?
I would agree with Oltmannd that it is time to figure out who to get NRPC out of self performing food service, I just don't know how on an existing route unless it would be one of the competively bid route schemes in the Senate bill.
A quick glance suggests some fundamental inappropriate assumptions in your reasoning. The primary valid arena for passenger trains' shifting people off roads would be off Interstate highways. It appears that governments at all levels are only picking up ~20% of the total costs. And unless trains were available as a competing mode for all Interstate travel, the role of a dining car as an incentive on LD trains is really a non sequitur, at best. The loss leader analogy is yet another example of your derailed cognitions.
Yes, and the costs are quite high, so the government 20% is $0.02 to $0.03/automobile mile, while the real loser is the individual as those losses are often uninsured.
Your logic escapes me. Additionally, the "study" had a disclaimer by the DOT. A torrent of numbers used to obscure flawed assumptions.
Silver Meteor 1st delayed 3+ hours at DC - setting out bad ordered diner. Train departed DC at 2300 with Engineer going HOS at 2331.
Further to my anguished notes last week, at this link is the remarkably decent diner-lite menu which Amtrak offers on every run of the CARDINAL. Everything is pre-mde and heated/plated/properly table-served on-board. I'm a CARDINAL rider and I can tell you this is a very reasonable fascimile of a "real" diner, the food tastes good and is EXACTLY what Amtrak should have offered on the SILVER STAR if the diner experiment was actually mean to succeed. But of course this requires a two-person crew.
http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/667/966/Cardinal-Dining-Car-Menu-0515.pdf
Carl Fowler
Unconfirmed reports that Amtrak has admitted by iternal notice that the passenger notifications of diner cancellation is not enough notice to public. Also all Star stations are supposed to get an additional notice to post. Anyone got a link to either of these.
Passenger complaints are coming in in large numbers. Amtrak cannot post the cause but wouldn't it be interesting if some one could pass out flyers putting this right at the feet of congress ? NARP -- how about it ?
blue streak 1 Unconfirmed reports that Amtrak has admitted by iternal notice that the passenger notifications of diner cancellation is not enough notice to public. Also all Star stations are supposed to get an additional notice to post. Anyone got a link to either of these.
See this post over on Trainorders.com Passenger forum:
http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,3826657
We may have some idea of why the " test " was implemented. Per Railpace Newsmagazine there were 7 diner delays cancellations substitutions from Aug 1 - Aug 16. 6 were shopped for various problems ---brakes, bolster, other unknown items and 1 slow ordered to 80 MPH due to rough riding on the NEC.
Railvt Further to my anguished notes last week, at this link is the remarkably decent diner-lite menu which Amtrak offers on every run of the CARDINAL. Everything is pre-mde and heated/plated/properly table-served on-board. I'm a CARDINAL rider and I can tell you this is a very reasonable fascimile of a "real" diner, the food tastes good and is EXACTLY what Amtrak should have offered on the SILVER STAR if the diner experiment was actually mean to succeed. But of course this requires a two-person crew. http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/667/966/Cardinal-Dining-Car-Menu-0515.pdf Carl Fowler
Compare menu for selections and price with Deutsche Bahn:
7,80 EUR
mit Kartoffelsalat (Essig & Öl)
8,20 EUR
Große Portion
5,30 EUR
mit Brot
7,90 EUR
mit Sour Cream undScheiben vom geräucherten Lachs
mit Tomatensoße
9,90 EUR
mit argentinischem Rindfleisch
mit Wiener Würstchen
mit Champignons und Butterreis
10,90 EUR
in Kapernsoße mit Butterreis
3,50 EUR
mit Dressing nach Wahl
[translation]
Warm food
Bratwurst 7.80 EURO
with potato salad (oil & vinegar)
Chili con carne 8.20 EUR
Large portion
Bratwurst 5.30 EUR
roll
Baked potato 7.90 EUR
with sour cream and
Slices of smoked salmon
Spaghetti (bio) (vegan) 7.90 EUR
with tomato sauce
Spaghetti Bolognese (bio) 9.90 EUR
with Argentinian beef
Lentil stew "Sweet Sour" 9.90 EUR
with Vienese sausages
Chicken fricassee 9.90 EUR
with mushrooms and butter rice
Königsberg meatballs 10.90 EUR [really good!]
in caper sauce with butter rice
We recommend for your warm
or cold food:
Side salad (vegetarian) [Extra articles] 3.50 EUR
with dressing of your choice
What has been largely missed is the companion "experiment" that of the City of New Orleans reincarnation of "dinner-lite". I recently tried it in August with out planning to do so.
The combined cafe/diner car was staffed by two people. The cafe attedent only handled her side and as far as I could tell while the single upstairs diner attendent handled all ordering, drinks (one fill only), plating of reheated type meals, and packaged frozen cheesecake type desert.
There may have been a kitchen employee but with around a 45 minute wait for food it would not seem so. The sleeper attendent cleaned the tables.
On the return trip there seemed to be an extra employee helping out, or perhaps the cafe attendent helped. You could get a refill on coffee but breakfast had no hot eggs, just a croissant, yogurt, and cereal. An adjacent table had a milk allergy so were largely out of luck, having not heard of the new menu.
This gets back to people expecting a certain thing and just not having the time to research all aspects of a trip. But this gets into a "fool me twice" situation next year. The only way out of this is more throughput through a diner not less.
[quote user="Wizlish"]
schlimm (quoting Fred) So come to my rescue, my fellow food lovers. I board at 3 p.m. I’m bringing dinner to eat that evening, plus breakfast and lunch the next day. What is both delicious and guaranteed safe to eat that night and the next day?
Two peripheral things come to mind:
One is that these trains should be equipped with microwave ovens, probably with enough sophistication in their power settings and cycle controls to make reheating even fairly delicate items a possibility. Failing that, I have seen small microwave ovens (made for the over-the-road truckers' market) that could be adapted to be packed in a carryon and used in a sleeper accommodation...
The other is that insulation and Peltier cooling/heating are now so good that a small and comparatively cheap 'powered cooler' could be brought along -- one of those "six-pack sized" units might be enough for the "perishable" constituents of a number of meals, and an adapter to plug into the 110V outlet in a modern Amtrak car keeps things cool as long as necessary.
What I'm now wondering is whether Amtrak might provide different amenities on a 'dinerless' train -- a bank of passenger-accessible and user-friendly microwaves, or refrigerators with individual sections or bins to keep your food (and keep it separate or safe from the usual 'roommates with munchies' issues!).
While this is not necessarily a full analogy, Whole Foods provided a fairly large range of condiments free to its dine-in patrons. Much of the problem with 'portable' meals, especially sandwiches or burgers, is that things like mayo or ketchup can't be put on when made and then left for hours -- but it's inconvenient or expensive to buy and bring along little individual packs, or little travel bottles. Easy, too, for a passenger to mention a special need or want 'ahead of time', let's say for that nectar of the gods Outerbridge's Sherry Peppers Sauce, and have it available on the train ... the bottle then remaining for other passengers, perhaps on many subsequent trips, to try and enjoy...
Now, there was a discussion a while back about 'outsourcing' some of the food service, for example by having passengers 'order ahead' and having something from a restaurant or fast-food chain place delivered to the train at a station stop. Why not extend this to grocery items? You would fill out your list just like ordering in a diner, the results would be (let's say) scanned and e-mailed to a local grocery far enough in advance to assure 100% of the food would be available and fresh at the time even a delayed train gets there, and voila! just the perishable or hot/cold or unintentionally forgotten parts of your 'meal experience' are delivered to the platform...
OPPORTUNITY KNOCKING DEPARTMENT:
Fred's question is a very good theme for a cookbook or recipe-idea collection. Assume you'll be away from home for x days -- what are the meal opportunities, what tips and tricks are there for preparing things in advance and keeping them, etc.? Include a special section on substitute ingredients for things that don't travel well or would involve having to port along complicated equipment to make 'on site'First, the FDA (Food and Drug Administration) regularly inspects Amtrak food service cars at terminals. Additionally, their inspectors conduct unannounced checks en route to insure that food is properly store, prepared and disposed of. Freshness dates are examined and inspectors carry thermometers to see that certain acceptable temperatures are maintained. Failing an inspection results in the food service car being shuttered, the employee being disciplined and the railroad being fined. With this in mind, do you honestly think that the FDA will permit catch-as-catch-can food service operation on Amtrak trains?Do you have any idea of the beating microwaves and permanently installed refrigeration equipment take on a moving train--on or off corridor? Do you honestly think that the FRA or FDA would permit "user friendly food preperation equipment" on an Amtrak train? If they did, and I was a personal injury attorney, I'd give up my office, climb aboard a train, hand out my business cards and solict plaintiffs. Food service aboard a moving train (plane, ship, or bus) is a highly specialized and regulated business. Let's not dismiss good, well founded business ideas, but at the same time, consider that people have spent their entire careers studying the same problems, and everything from vending machines to outsourcing has been considered. What it all comes down to is how to address the nutritional demands of the traveling public in a manner that meets their needs, doesn't exceed their budget and is operated in a fashion that complies with laws, regulations governing accepted standards of safety and sanitation. To many non-railroaders, there are simple solutions to the most complex of problems. Having dealt with them for almost 37 years, I can assure you, there ARE no simple solutions.
“Food service aboard a moving train (plane, ship, or bus) is a highly specialized and regulated business. Let's not dismiss good, well founded business ideas, but at the same time, consider that people have spent their entire careers studying the same problems... Freshness dates are examined and inspectors carry thermometers to see that certain acceptable temperatures are maintained...”
I am not sure what planning is going on, but my experience with the alternative dining service on the City of New Orleans left me wondering why an attendant was needed other than ensure table cleanliness and to hand out the food from a staff locked refrigerator.
For breakfast, I had things that were all refrigerated, yogurt, croissant, milk for cereal, but the wait to be served was quite long once I sat down and ordered and then I got only one drink, no refill. Why not instead just go to the adjacent cafe counter to be handed my meal tray then toast the croissant myself and pour my own coffee and juice before walking to the table as can be done in a hotel breakfast that is equally FDA regulated? That would eliminate the 20 minute wait between ordering and being served. The dinner was obviously a previously prepared entree reheated along with a bagged salad, but with a long wait once seated in addition to the wait for the assigned seating times cycle. So the first goal would be to eliminate the waits from limited staffing and the second would be to allow multiple seating times by making the kichen work have no set must do work items.
However, NRPC in their five year plans says they are exploring issuing a RFP to improve food service finances and there is a large undefined "savings" in the last three years.
So the question is could we respond in advance to the RFP? Could it be possible to use ordering automation (tablets at the table), thermoelectric stock carts that transfer from a local stocking grocer, as well as sous-vide preparation techniques, where water bath provides the flexibility to hold meats before a final sear to create an efficient two-staff member diner that could serve twice the patrons as currently done with true fresh cooked comfort foods? Perhaps a new thread with some numbers is in order.
Is Amtrak quietly selling its customers down the river to mollify Congress?
Today's Newswire includes the info that Amtrak will extend its suspension of the Albany-Boston leg of Trains 48-49 until Feb. 1.
The story doesn't say when the original suspension, dating from earlier this year and blamed on trackwork (huh?), was supposed to come off. But the extension means the thru service will miss the busy holiday season, which is egregious. The "story" doesn't give us Amtrak's rationale for this one.
Taken with downgrades to the Silver Star, City of New Orleans (cafe in lieu of diner) and -- if I remember correctly -- the Texas Eagle (again, diner gone), I worry Amtrak is preparing us for a system-wide downgrade.
If so, I'm outta there. One can always ride a real bus and get the pure experience.
dakotafredToday's Newswire includes the news that Amtrak will extend its suspension of thru sleeping car and coach service between Albany and Boston off Nos. 48/49 until Feb. 1.
What I found is that CSX is doing track work and that the suspension is until Nov 18.
On Sunday through Wednesday only, from November 1 through November 18, 2015, Trains 448 and 449 will not operate between Albany-Rensselaer and Boston due to track work being performed by CSX Transportation.
We appreciate your patronage and apologize for any inconvenience you may experience. Reservation and train status information is available on Amtrak.com, our free mobile apps and at 1-800-USA-RAIL (1-800-872-7245).
Thank you for traveling with Amtrak.
And only Sunday through Wednesday.
So give them a break.
Electro: You need to catch up on current events.
dakotafred, I'm confused, The thread indicates that 448/9 are not running until Feb. Amtrak's web shows 448, 449 as a coach connection BOS-ALB and a message about delays shown below. What can you reference to show that 448/9 are not operating.
Significant track and infrastructure improvements will affect trains operating along the Empire Corridor between Schenectady and Poughkeepsie, NY. Trains will continue to operate during construction, but passengers may experience delays of up to 20 minutes when traveling though the work area at the Albany-Rensselaer station. Once this work is completed, train capacity will be increased at our platforms resulting in improved quality and reliability of our service.
For the most up-to-date departure and arrival times, passengers can to sign-up for delay notifications when booking their travel and check the status of their train on Amtrak.com, our free mobile apps or at 1-800-USA-RAIL (1-800-872-7245).
We appreciate your patronage and apologize for any inconvenience. Amtrak’s Empire Service is committed to providing comfortable, safe and efficient rail passenger service. Thank you for traveling with Amtrak.
This work is part of a $163 million joint infrastructure improvement project being conducted in partnership between New York State Department of Transportation and Amtrak designed to improve the quality and reliability of Amtrak's Empire Corridor. The project includes the installation of a fourth track at the Albany-Rensselaer station — the ninth busiest terminal in the Amtrak system. The additional track will alleviate congestion which, in the current configuration, often forces trains to wait just outside the station for a track to open during busy times.
A second main line track between Albany-Rensselaer and Schenectady will also be constructed that will eliminate train delays caused by bottlenecks over the 17-mile single track main line. In addition, a new signal system will be installed that will greatly reduce the likelihood of outages due to weather and keep trains moving safely and at faster speeds, even in inclement weather.
Join us on facebook.com/Amtrak. Follow us on twitter.com/Amtrak.
PSN 0415-89
Amtrak substituted buses for 448/449 Sundays thru Wednesdays between Nov. 1-18. This isn't what I was complaining about.
This is:
Per the Nov. 16 Newswire -- no service alert on the Amtrak site yet, as of today -- the thru Boston-Chicago sleeper and coach(s) suspended "earlier in 2015," necessitating an across-the-platform transfer at Albany, were supposed to be restored "this fall." Instead, the suspension of thru service has been extended until Feb. 1. Missing the whole holiday excitement.
This is what I was complaining about. If I were a sleeping car passenger, especially, I would tell Amtrak to go pound salt.
dakotafredThis is what I was complaining about. If I were a sleeping car passenger, especially, I would tell Amtrak to go pound salt.
Yes, I agree, a coach ride and a transfer is not what one wants when they prefer a through ride. I misunderstood what you were saying to be that there was to be no train between BOS & ALB until Feb, 2016. Has Amtrak diverted the Bos sleeper to NYP or dropped it entirely? Has anybody seen planns for the ALB station track work?
When the Albany station was originally completed, an additional platform was built but their were no funds for the additional track and signal work. As I understand it, the suspendtion of the Thur bos to chi sleeper is only temporary until this work is completed. The station does not have the capacity to handle the switching of the train during reconstruction.
Thank you, Robert. Which tells us that the reconstruction must be dragging on longer than anticipated, which is more than Trains or Amtrak has told us.
ROBERT WILLISON When the Albany station was originally completed, an additional platform was built but their were no funds for the additional track and signal work. As I understand it, the suspendtion of the Thur bos to chi sleeper is only temporary until this work is completed. The station does not have the capacity to handle the switching of the train during reconstruction.
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