There are two aspects to rehabbing an older car. Most critical is having the running gear completely up to spec, and that is required by Amtrak and the major railroads. That is safety critical; if there is any concern it would be neither proposed by IP nor accepted by Amtrak or Indiana.
The second is where there will be more flexibility, and that is the interior of the car and related systems. The AOE spent a lot of money upgrading the interiors to match their intended up-scale market, often reconfiguring the layout.
For this service a regular coach in good interior condition should be fine as it stands. A brand new air-conditioning unit will probably (not necessarily) be more reliable than an older one, but having a mechanic on board the train may be a reasonable alternative. He can also handle any other minor mechanical or electrical issues that might crop up. It makes for a higher operating expense but saves capital outlay if you are uncertain how long the operation may continue. Meanwhile passenger comfort is assured.
CMStPnP schlimm Seems like the bigger point is getting lost in the details. Is Ellis' operation, for being a luxury weekly, possibly short-shrifting safety of equipment? I'll await further facts but this is kind of my suspicion as well. Look at all the private passenger cars he has bought or leased and how few he has running on a regular basis. Then there was the purchase of Coffee Creek (ex-Milwaukee Road Skytop) which it appears he does not currently have the funds to rehab properly at the current time. Maybe I am mistaken on that. Just seems his passenger division is getting capital thin these days. It is a concern for me and I won't ride his trains unless I see more focus on a complete car rebuild or some decent passenger car maintenence facilities. Certainly he is NOT following the example of either the American Orient Express or the former Marlboro Train in a complete ground up rehab. Instead it looks like he is doing a Gas Monkey garage rehab.....just fixing what is broke right now to get the car running and into service so that it can earn money. Thats my hunch based on what I read.......just a hunch I have. I could be wrong but usually I am partly right with my hunches.
schlimm Seems like the bigger point is getting lost in the details. Is Ellis' operation, for being a luxury weekly, possibly short-shrifting safety of equipment?
I'll await further facts but this is kind of my suspicion as well. Look at all the private passenger cars he has bought or leased and how few he has running on a regular basis. Then there was the purchase of Coffee Creek (ex-Milwaukee Road Skytop) which it appears he does not currently have the funds to rehab properly at the current time. Maybe I am mistaken on that.
Just seems his passenger division is getting capital thin these days. It is a concern for me and I won't ride his trains unless I see more focus on a complete car rebuild or some decent passenger car maintenence facilities. Certainly he is NOT following the example of either the American Orient Express or the former Marlboro Train in a complete ground up rehab. Instead it looks like he is doing a Gas Monkey garage rehab.....just fixing what is broke right now to get the car running and into service so that it can earn money. Thats my hunch based on what I read.......just a hunch I have.
I could be wrong but usually I am partly right with my hunches.
Everyone has the right to choose how to spend their transportation dollars. That said, this season a Pullman consist will leave Chicago every Thursday.
Editor Emeritus, This Week at Amtrak
But is his Chicago - New Orleans operation still running, is it running reliably without problems NOW? That would evidence in his favor.
schlimmSeems like the bigger point is getting lost in the details. Is Ellis' operation, for being a luxury weekly, possibly short-shrifting safety of equipment?
ROBERT WILLISON Mr .Carleton, how was the crack detected and at who's shop?
Mr .Carleton, how was the crack detected and at who's shop?
schlimm D.Carleton Don't confuse "never before seen" with not possible. Everything on the RAC checklist is on the daily inspection of 49CFR238. None of us had ever seen a failed axle in route before and I would love to hear another tale of such. That said, how does one find a hairline or smaller crack on an axle on a daily inspection? Simple answer: you don't. Seems like the bigger point is getting lost in the details. Is Ellis' operation, for being a luxury weekly, is possibly short-shrifting safety of equipment?
D.Carleton Don't confuse "never before seen" with not possible. Everything on the RAC checklist is on the daily inspection of 49CFR238. None of us had ever seen a failed axle in route before and I would love to hear another tale of such. That said, how does one find a hairline or smaller crack on an axle on a daily inspection? Simple answer: you don't.
D.Carleton CMStPnP If "Old Heads" had never seen the condition before, why would it be listed in the Canadian Spec for Rail Passenger Car inspections listed on Page 8 under Axles in the below link: http://www.railcan.ca/assets/images/regulations/rules/revised_pasSENGER_CAR_INSPECTION_AND_SAFETY_RULES_FRENCH_AND_E.pdf Now why would the Canadians issue a inspection specification in 2001 for a condition never before seen on rail passenger cars......scratching my head on this. Don't confuse "never before seen" with not possible. Everything on the RAC checklist is on the daily inspection of 49CFR238. None of us had ever seen a failed axle in route before and I would love to hear another tale of such. That said, how does one find a hairline or smaller crack on an axle on a daily inspection? Simple answer: you don't.
CMStPnP If "Old Heads" had never seen the condition before, why would it be listed in the Canadian Spec for Rail Passenger Car inspections listed on Page 8 under Axles in the below link: http://www.railcan.ca/assets/images/regulations/rules/revised_pasSENGER_CAR_INSPECTION_AND_SAFETY_RULES_FRENCH_AND_E.pdf Now why would the Canadians issue a inspection specification in 2001 for a condition never before seen on rail passenger cars......scratching my head on this.
http://www.railcan.ca/assets/images/regulations/rules/revised_pasSENGER_CAR_INSPECTION_AND_SAFETY_RULES_FRENCH_AND_E.pdf
Now why would the Canadians issue a inspection specification in 2001 for a condition never before seen on rail passenger cars......scratching my head on this.
Don't confuse "never before seen" with not possible. Everything on the RAC checklist is on the daily inspection of 49CFR238. None of us had ever seen a failed axle in route before and I would love to hear another tale of such.
That said, how does one find a hairline or smaller crack on an axle on a daily inspection? Simple answer: you don't.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
D.CarletonFor the record it was not a cracked wheel. Really. It was a cracked axle which, after talking to enough old heads in the passenger railroad business, they had never seen before. Really. Nowhere in 49CFR238 does it state 'thou shalt have an inspection pit.' That said would I rather have a pit for the daily and scheduled inspections? Absolutely. But when the commissars inspecting the equipment say they want a pit you grab a shovel and start digging. Really.
If "Old Heads" had never seen the condition before, why would it be listed in the Canadian Spec for Rail Passenger Car inspections listed on Page 8 under Axles in the below link:
How was the crack detected?
CMStPnP I am sorry but isn't this the same Ed Ellis and Company whom had to be told by a Class One railroad there were cracks in the wheels of his equipment that was running behind the City of New Orleans? Now he is said to have all this expeirence running passenger trains and it's implied these inspections are almost unnecessary. Really?
I am sorry but isn't this the same Ed Ellis and Company whom had to be told by a Class One railroad there were cracks in the wheels of his equipment that was running behind the City of New Orleans? Now he is said to have all this expeirence running passenger trains and it's implied these inspections are almost unnecessary.
Really?
Nowhere in 49CFR238 does it state 'thou shalt have an inspection pit.' That said would I rather have a pit for the daily and scheduled inspections? Absolutely. But when the commissars inspecting the equipment say they want a pit you grab a shovel and start digging. Really.
But your 100% right, the old all Budd ocean was a fine ride. Dome coaches, mid train dome lounges and the park tail cars. Myself and my wife occupied a drawing room in the park in mid 2000's. At the time you could still book a section. Amazing ride
Only suggest neither IP or Indiana have the willingness or the cash to invest in new equipment. The folks at fec is taking that approach, and will reap the benefits of the new equipment from an operational perceptive, hope that thier marketing and real estate plans can turn a profit.
That's the difference between companies that operate excursion trains and those involved in running daily passenger trains.
The wheelset inspection pit "hastily dug" in the frozen ground. Did some folks miss that part as well? As if it was a surprise the wheel sets would be inspected.....even after the past history? Doesn't raise questions in anyones mind?
I understand that VIA did not buy completed cars, but bought shells that had been made and then had them filled to suit VIA's perceived need.
I prefer the Budd equipment, having made a round trip to Halifax and returned from Moncton in the newer sleepers (on our second trip, to Moncton, my wife and I occupied a drawing room in one of the Chateau sleepers).
Johnny
How much of metra ( cbq ) orginal bi levels cars are in service? Cbq took deliver is on bi level cars from 1950 until 1973. A large group have been sold or leased because they can not be made Ada compliant.
Via like Amtrak is a step child in Canada. Where via could replace thier Budds they did, like on the ocean where they replaced by used equipment from Europe. In Canada the Budds continue to operate because thier are little funds to replace them.
In the us the majority of passenger operators have replaced them.
Hey I am not saying they are not well built cars but time has caught up with the vast majority of the huge fleets of Budd rail cars that once roamed the us.
ROBERT WILLISONSo it doesn't answer my question . if operating 60 year old equipment is so efficient, then why is it gone from almost any mainline or commuter in north America?
Toilet retention tanks killed Heritage equipment. Retrofit put them beyond the economic limit of repair. Another factor was the Viewliners have a higher capacity than 10-6's.
Amfleet replaced their inherited stuff because they needed 125 mph equipment for the NEC and much of the old stuff was carbon steel, not stainless, and was rusting away. They kept a lot of the Budd SS stuff and rebuilt it.
How good are Budd SS cars? The original CB&Q gallery cars are still at it in Chicago. The El Cap cars are still around and Amtrak is still running a few around. Amtrak's diners and baggage cars are still in service. The entire Canadain trainsets are Budd SS. The PATCO line's 1967 cars are currently being rebuilt for another 40 years service.
A lot of the surplus LD equipment that wound up in suburban service wound up getting replaced because new equipment had higher capacity- plus avoiding the conversion to HEP. Much of the Budd SS equipment that did get converted is still around in excursion service and private ownership.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
ROBERT WILLISON So it doesn't answer my question . if operating 60 year old equipment is so efficient, then why is it gone from almost any mainline or commuter in north America?
So it doesn't answer my question . if operating 60 year old equipment is so efficient, then why is it gone from almost any mainline or commuter in north America?
I've read in several places that the Viewliners were (unofficially) about 65 tons.
ROBERT WILLISONThe new cars weight in at over 20000 PDS less than a typical heritage sleeper.
You are saying a Viewliner is 10 tons less than a Budd 10-6? You're gonna have to provide some proof! They have the same construction! I'll bet you they are both roughly 70 tons.
ROBERT WILLISONIf you compare the weight differences between a heritage coach and a Amtrak cascade coach or the cars that siemens is producing for the new fec Florida service the savings is even more dynamic.
Apple and oranges.
Cascade Talgo trains and the likely Siemens coaches are for modern corridor services, the latter HSR. Our LD trains are basically run at the same or more often, slower speeds than back in 1960. Consequently, as long as it is updated, Heritage equipment is right at home, as the newer Superliner and Viewliners are basically 60s' technology with a different outer shell.
Its pretty obvious you are missing the significance of the weight of the new view liner cars. The new cars weight in at over 20000 PDS less than a typical heritage sleeper. That could amount to a weight savings of 100000 PDS per train. This weight savings over the course of the cars service life of 40 years would save thier owners considerable amounts in fuel cost, wear and tear on the locomotives and the track/ roadbed .
If you compare the weight differences between a heritage coach and a Amtrak cascade coach or the cars that siemens is producing for the new fec Florida service the savings is even more dynamic.
If you want to compete in todays marjet, you must operate modern fuel efficient equipment.
Heritage equipment may be able to be made serviceable on daily basis but they are not the most cost effective option available. If they were then why are thier not being operated on rail and commuter trains in north America?
D.Carleton ROBERT WILLISON The new cars are built different. Modular interior construction, modern trucks and modern brakes and brake rigging. Hard to imagine that since 1950 thier hasnt been some technological advancements in car production, even where the view liners are concerned. Again, don't need to review the cars stats, rather than speculation. NRPC non-AutoTrain conventional equipment uses 26C brakes just like most non-Amtrak cars. All Amtrak passenger cars ordered new have clasp and disc brakes; non-Amtrak have one or the other. Both use air and have a collection of reserviors and pipes conforming to 49CFR238. There is no real difference. There cannot be if we are to maintain network interoperability. The trucks are "modern" in the sense that they were cast in recent memory. The design dates back to at least the late 1960s. A "modular" interior helps with the initial construction but doesn't make much difference with the operation or maintenance of the car. If a bulb goes out you replace the bulb and not the whole bedroom module.
ROBERT WILLISON The new cars are built different. Modular interior construction, modern trucks and modern brakes and brake rigging. Hard to imagine that since 1950 thier hasnt been some technological advancements in car production, even where the view liners are concerned. Again, don't need to review the cars stats, rather than speculation.
The new cars are built different. Modular interior construction, modern trucks and modern brakes and brake rigging. Hard to imagine that since 1950 thier hasnt been some technological advancements in car production, even where the view liners are concerned. Again, don't need to review the cars stats, rather than speculation.
NRPC non-AutoTrain conventional equipment uses 26C brakes just like most non-Amtrak cars. All Amtrak passenger cars ordered new have clasp and disc brakes; non-Amtrak have one or the other. Both use air and have a collection of reserviors and pipes conforming to 49CFR238. There is no real difference. There cannot be if we are to maintain network interoperability.
The trucks are "modern" in the sense that they were cast in recent memory. The design dates back to at least the late 1960s.
A "modular" interior helps with the initial construction but doesn't make much difference with the operation or maintenance of the car. If a bulb goes out you replace the bulb and not the whole bedroom module.
+1
Exactly.
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