daveklepper Certainly seems that lots of people comment without reading the thread through. Again, my proposal is that the freight railroads run this service, and if it is Amtrak, then it is Amtrak owned by the six or seven major railroads.
Certainly seems that lots of people comment without reading the thread through. Again, my proposal is that the freight railroads run this service, and if it is Amtrak, then it is Amtrak owned by the six or seven major railroads.
"It should be railroad operated to coordinate with the regular freight business of that railroads have with these two customers", is what you said.
People frequently don't read for comprehension what is put before them. Moreover, because of their prejudices - we all have them, they draw conclusions about the message without taking the time to evaluate and try to understand it.
In the days of RPO cars plus many storage mail routes, if one subtracted the commuter trains and runs obviously kept on as social services, probably overall the passenger trains broke even. What slight losses there were could be tolerated for the good public rellations value of meeting people first hand. When the P.O. stopped using rail, only then did the massive train-offs of the best trainis begin as losses multiplied. So perhaps free enterprise can help rehabilitate what I truly do believe is a most valuable part of North American civilization. I think with the right technoilogy, it can be done.
RPO's and HYPO's were discontinued because they were obsolete in an era of mechanized mail sorting. Storage mail was moved into trailers or containers and was moved on intermodal freight trains. This left the passenger service standing on its own, and the losses skyrocketed. With that past, I don't see any of the existing freight carriers reinstating passenger service on their own dime and attaching it to priority intermodal runs.
daveklepper In the days of RPO cars plus many storage mail routes, if one subtracted the commuter trains and runs obviously kept on as social services, probably overall the passenger trains broke even. What slight losses there were could be tolerated for the good public rellations value of meeting people first hand. When the P.O. stopped using rail, only then did the massive train-offs of the best trainis begin as losses multiplied. So perhaps free enterprise can help rehabilitate what I truly do believe is a most valuable part of North American civilization. I think with the right technoilogy, it can be done.
On another thread we could see how Wm. Vanderbilt of the NYC in 1882 told how even his limiteds lost money, and that was back when the rails had a monopoly on passenger services. If you think "free enterprise" is going to support money-losing passenger services now, think again. The only way you can get some sort of passenger service is through the government, and that looks like a forlorn prospect for the foreseeable future.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
daveklepper I am not about to hire a lobyist. It is an alternative. There were ways of getting of getting extremely fast package delivery service in the days of RPO cars, such as handing the 1st-class stamped package directly to the car's mail clerk, that cannot be duplicated today, even with the best the FedEx and UPS offer. It is an idea, an alternative, and might best be tried out on All Aboard Florida. If it helps their for-profit passenger service really work, then possibly the freight railroads might want to consider it. And the last paragraph of the previous post is possibly the best technology, with the FedEx and/or UPS office at the railroad station, and the truck delivering directly from train-side to the receivers.
I am not about to hire a lobyist. It is an alternative. There were ways of getting of getting extremely fast package delivery service in the days of RPO cars, such as handing the 1st-class stamped package directly to the car's mail clerk, that cannot be duplicated today, even with the best the FedEx and UPS offer. It is an idea, an alternative, and might best be tried out on All Aboard Florida. If it helps their for-profit passenger service really work, then possibly the freight railroads might want to consider it.
And the last paragraph of the previous post is possibly the best technology, with the FedEx and/or UPS office at the railroad station, and the truck delivering directly from train-side to the receivers.
Sounds like you are trying to recreate the Railway Express Agency (jointly owned with offices at the station). That organization didn't fare well at the end. Why would this be different?
I think pallet load express in the new baggage cars would be worthwhile. especially if it pays for forklifts etc to speed up the loading of baggage as well. There was talk of a pallet load of Express been add to the Southwest Chief, i would think it has been put off till the introduction of the new baggage cars. Pallet load is not competing with the railroads either.
solarPallet load is not competing with the railroads either.
Yes, it does compete with the railroads' freight operations. The railroads do handle a whole lot of small shipments that have been consolidated by organizations such as UPS, FedEx, ABF, YRC, etc.
Doing that was the way I started out in civilian transportation. Working on a freight dock as an intern in Chicago.
i have no quarrel with the previous several posts, but am hoping, admittadly just a hope, that in Americans' priorities, advanced technology, crowded highways, flying hassles, and good managemen can make All Aboard Florida a success. My idea might contribute to that success. Its success might, again just a hope, lead to interest by the Big Six or Seven.
Perhaps the way to go about LD train in general is for Amtrak to become the middle man between the frt RRs and some contract operators. Amtrak provides the route, schedule slot, and maybe has locomotives and some equipment available. Operators bid on the rest. Bids might "negative", that is, smallest subsidy wins.
I appreciate Dave getting the conversation going. Since the federal government is not going to put capital into passenger service I think you have to look to outside sources if the long distance service is going to survive. I like the concept pasted above to make Amtrak be a clearing house to run passenger service and let the details be bid on by private companies. That opens the doors to express services, sleeper services, auto carriers, tour operators etc. Nothing I have not said in posts before.
Dixie FlyerSince the federal government is not going to put capital into passenger service I think you have to look to outside sources if the long distance service is going to survive. I like the concept pasted above to make Amtrak be a clearing house to run passenger service and let the details be bid on by private companies. That opens the doors to express services, sleeper services, auto carriers, tour operators etc. Nothing I have not said in posts before.
Not so sure the federal government as currently elected is going to want to subsidize operations either. Most running of LD passenger and many shorter corridor trains is not an attractive, profit-making enterprise. It requires a subsidy, whether direct or indirect, such as AAF with land developments.
Solar,
Where and with what equipment is ATK operating "pallet load express"?
I did not find it mentioned on ATK's web site, which proves nothing. I did find they have only 64 baggage cars and zero express or freight cars.
If they are offering this service on the NEC of course the freight carriers would not object, that is ATK's railroad and they can do anything they please on it.
The freight carrier's problem with the original proposal is; they have less than zero desire to get back into the tar pit of passenger service, and they do not want their physical capacity used by ATK to compete with their freight service.
Mac McCulloch
Can't see baggage cars on NEC trains, most have very short dwell time at stations. Even during the height of private passenger operations most mail and express was handled on secondary or dedicated mail trains. You did not see much head end business with an exception of RPO on the premier trains. At the end neither what was left of the mail contracts or the rea saved the day.
If the post office goes back to mail on trains it will be some form of intermodal service with the freight carriers.
Let Amtrak concentrate on people not freight. In the end it will not affect the bottom line much
Again, I must stress I am not suggesting this program for Amtrak. I have suggested it to All Aboard Florida and notified them where to find this Forum thread. If they are intersted, they will pursue the idea in their own way. Then, if they ae successful, and if the lessons they apply can be applied to the national passenger network, Amtrak may end up owned by the railroads and not by the Government. With or without the program I have suggested. A lot of ifs!
PNWRMNM Solar, Where and with what equipment is ATK operating "pallet load express"? I did not find it mentioned on ATK's web site, which proves nothing. I did find they have only 64 baggage cars and zero express or freight cars. If they are offering this service on the NEC of course the freight carriers would not object, that is ATK's railroad and they can do anything they please on it. The freight carrier's problem with the original proposal is; they have less than zero desire to get back into the tar pit of passenger service, and they do not want their physical capacity used by ATK to compete with their freight service. Mac McCulloch
Mac: Thanks for the refreshing words of reality.
I AGREE Again, the only way that Amtrak could offer the service would be if Amtrak is owned by the railroads, and this would be possible only if All Aboard Florida is successful AND if its lessons are applicable elsewhere. And that All Aboard Florida does develop the idea. Three big ifs.
daveklepper I AGREE Again, the only way that Amtrak could offer the service would be if Amtrak is owned by the railroads, and this would be possible only if All Aboard Florida is successful AND if its lessons are applicable elsewhere. And that All Aboard Florida does develop the idea. Three big ifs.
It took me a little searching to find the web address.
Johnny
Thank you Johnny.
This is a small package service between 100 stations, obviously beyond NEC. It seems consistent with historical express service and looks to involve less than a baggage car per train, two reasons the freight carriers do not care.
It is very different than the original proposal.
Mac
solarThe pallet load express is handled in the baggage cars. It is only carried between Stations that have A "heavy express" classification. Pretty much major terminals , or major station with forklifts
Has anyone actually seen Amtrak load or unload a pallet?
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Deggesty PNWRMNM Solar, Where and with what equipment is ATK operating "pallet load express"? I did not find it mentioned on ATK's web site, which proves nothing. I did find they have only 64 baggage cars and zero express or freight cars. If they are offering this service on the NEC of course the freight carriers would not object, that is ATK's railroad and they can do anything they please on it. The freight carrier's problem with the original proposal is; they have less than zero desire to get back into the tar pit of passenger service, and they do not want their physical capacity used by ATK to compete with their freight service. Mac McCulloch Information concerning pallet-load shipments by AMtrak is found on page 134 of the Summer-Fall 2014 timetable, and at http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=Page&pagename=am%2FLayout&cid=1241267371736 It took me a little searching to find the web address.
Information concerning pallet-load shipments by AMtrak is found on page 134 of the Summer-Fall 2014 timetable, and at http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=Page&pagename=am%2FLayout&cid=1241267371736
And just how much revenue does Amtrak derive from this service?
I have seem Amtrak load and unload pallets in Cleveland oh,Albany NY, and stations in Florida.
schlimm daveklepper I AGREE Again, the only way that Amtrak could offer the service would be if Amtrak is owned by the railroads, and this would be possible only if All Aboard Florida is successful AND if its lessons are applicable elsewhere. And that All Aboard Florida does develop the idea. Three big ifs. Schlimm, I am not sure either. We will just have to see how much of a success ABF becomes. As I recall, an important component in the AAF plan is land development, as well as a federal loan. Not sure how well that translates to other non-corridor areas.
daveklepper I AGREE Again, the only way that Amtrak could offer the service would be if Amtrak is owned by the railroads, and this would be possible only if All Aboard Florida is successful AND if its lessons are applicable elsewhere. And that All Aboard Florida does develop the idea. Three big ifs. Schlimm, I am not sure either. We will just have to see how much of a success ABF becomes.
Schlimm, I am not sure either. We will just have to see how much of a success ABF becomes.
As I recall, an important component in the AAF plan is land development, as well as a federal loan. Not sure how well that translates to other non-corridor areas.
Dave,
What makes you think all aboard Florida wants to be in the package delivery business. High speed rail is all about getting from point a to point b as fast as possible. Any kind of head end business would add to station dwell time. Making high speed rail low speed and making their trains less competitive with cars and planes.
And why would any one think the big 7 railroads would want to own Amtrak " jointly " like they owned Pullman? We all know how that ended, with Pullman being dissolved by the railroads that owned it.
And lastly why would ups or fed ex want to move thier packages by passenger train. They have a profitable business model now with out risking billions of dollar in questionable scenario involving passenger trains.
This would also go for the freight rail roads, which had to pay to join Amtrak at its conception. Why would they want to spend billions of thier shareholders money to re enter a money losing business to haul freight on passenger trains which they already move on thier most profitable freight trains.
Just don't think moving freight on Amtrak is a viable option.
ROBERT WILLISON What makes you think all aboard Florida wants to be in the package delivery business. High speed rail is all about getting from point a to point b. Any kind of head end business would add to station dwell time. Making high speed rail low speed and making their trains less competitive with cars and planes.
What makes you think all aboard Florida wants to be in the package delivery business. High speed rail is all about getting from point a to point b. Any kind of head end business would add to station dwell time. Making high speed rail low speed and making their trains less competitive with cars and planes.
I would cetainly agree that there is no indication that AAF has any interest in package and express. If anything, as others have commented, the real "play" appears to be real estate (like so many rail projects in history!). Though it should be noted that the controlling FEC RR is a freight carrier ...
More interesting are the comments about dwell time. While true, there is a compromise possibility -- baggage and express service only between the endpoints. I know of at least one historical precedent (though I'm sure there are others) -- when Southern Pacific instituted the original Daylight (later the Coast Daylight) on a much hotter schedule than its predecessors, checked baggage was only handled at the endpoints, San Francisco and Los Angeles.
My response is that AAF may want to expand its business to include anything that will maximize the bottom line. Especially if UPS and/or FedEx are interested, they may wish to provide the service, since it would bring in extra income without materially increasing expenses. Consider it a useful and profitable byproduct to the main business.
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