Found this in the blog section and thought I would post a link. I think Schlimm mentioned this before and it looks like someone else had the same thought. Very interesting read.
http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/observation-tower/archive/2015/01/21/overnight-coach-or-first-class-private-bedroom-how-about-something-in-between.aspx
I tried to activate the link but no luck. It's a good article. The slumbercoach or 2-person couchette might work well as an alternative.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I was a frequent user of both sections and Sleeper/Slumbercoachers when they were available. In Europe I did use the couchettes. I did not have any experience with lie-flat 1st-Class air travel. My preferences based on experience are Slumber/Sleepercoaches for overnight-only travel, sections for long trips involving one or more overnight but also considerable daytime, but not couchettes. I would rather lack privacy completely than share one compartment privately with five strangers. I think most Americans would share these preferences. The Slumber/Sleepercoach is really claustrophobic for daytime travel, and the open section is a comfortable non-private shared experience with only one person. Did not have any problems the few times used an upper berth, but did do my clothes changing in the men's restroom and used full pajamas.
Eequipping each room with private toilets will be a huge problem today with retention toilets, as it has been for the so-called Amtrak roomette, which is not really a roomette since it lacks that facility.
All-in-all, return to the open section might be best for this market.
On European shared couchette services, one does not normally change into ones pj's, but sleep in your day clothes.
I think a version of the airline lie flat seat would be a good option. By staggering the height of the seats, (aka an open version of the Slumbercoach) one passengers feet could be under the seat of the passenger in front of them. This could mean seat spacing of not much more than existing LD spacing. I also think standard coaches could have dividing walls(glass), which would help to keep noise levels down, and provide conductors with options to seperate different groups. i.e , lump all the teenagers in together .
Too many feel good ideas and no marketing or research. Overnight trains in the manner that people remember in Europe are fading away. City Night Line is a shell of its former self, SNCF ended private room sleeper service,international sleeper routes are becoming fewer and fewer. I miss it as much as the next afficianado but Mr. Kenton is lost in the fog or gazing from his private dome car seat. Probably could make business class travel more attractive and innovative and maybe some of that would transfer into some sort of upgraded overnight service. Again dreams should be connected to marketing and hard research.
Good comments. But the night Scottland sleeper service seems to be holding, with subsidies from the Scottland government. I realize the Section alternative I like may be a non-starter, because the space it occupies is just as large as the Amtrak roomette, and both sleep only two. Indeed, the Amtrak roomette is really just an enclosed and thus more private section. So maybe, the deal should be that Amtrak should offer this kind of room to individual travelers at a reduced cost if they are willing to share the room with a stranger? A second-class first-class?
It seems to me we have plenty of options already for the once-a-day service we have on most LD routes. If you can't find what you want among coach, roomette or bedroom, there are always planes and buses with their wealth of choices.
But those of us that wish LDs`to continiue are always looking for ways to improve their business.
Also Easyjet and Ryan Air are killing the European sleeper trains. Funny thing about Europe, jet fuel isn't taxed but diesel fuel is, so as usual it's politics.
Any analysis / speculation of potential sleeper riders is difficult.
What are the ages
what are financial resources
How much time to travel
What are transportation motivies
Going single or with others
Handicapped
departure and arrival times of train(s)
Coach seat accomodations
Length of trip in time and distance
other posters can come up with many items.
daveklepper But those of us that wish LDs`to continiue are always looking for ways to improve their business.
We just wish there were a few "true believers" at Amtrak....
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
I support Amtrak, and believe it to be the best we can do under present political and economic conditions, but to be a true believer, I would have to believe it is the ideal situation, which it is not.
To me, the ideal situation would be for all modes of passenger travel to pay the full share of their costs to the economy, including use of real-estate (Interstates and similar roads being part of the highway transportation industry), the freight railroadds unburdened of harmful regulation, and the freight railroads seeing passenger service as their best window to the public.
Subsidization of commuter transportation to make cities and towns work better is a different matter.
oltmannd daveklepper But those of us that wish LDs`to continiue are always looking for ways to improve their business. We just wish there were a few "true believers" at Amtrak....
Maybe the true believers at Amtrak understand that the future for passenger rail lies in relatively short, high density corridors, where the cost to expand the highways and airways is prohibitive.
Maybe the true believers at Amtrak know that long distance passenger trains don't make any economic sense, and bowing to politics is the only reason for running them.
daveklepper I support Amtrak, and believe it to be the best we can do under present political and economic conditions, but to be a true believer, I would have to believe it is the ideal situation, which it is not. To me, the ideal situation would be for all modes of passenger travel to pay the full share of their costs to the economy, including use of real-estate (Interstates and similar roads being part of the highway transportation industry), the freight railroadds unburdened of harmful regulation, and the freight railroads seeing passenger service as their best window to the public. Subsidization of commuter transportation to make cities and towns work better is a different matter.
The land that has been taken off the tax rolls for roadways, including the interstate highways, which make up approximately 2.5 per cent of the roadway miles in the United States, would be difficult if not impossible to value for current tax purposes.
What goes unsaid in this argument is all the value that has been added to the tax rolls as a result of the nation's roadways. The 10s of thousands of businesses that have been spawned by roadways, i.e. motels, restaurants, service stations, etc., pay taxes. And while it would be difficult to prove it, I suspect that they pay far more in taxes than the owners of the land that was taken for the roadways ever paid.
Motorists pay for the roadways, but they don't see the true cost at the price point, i.e. pump, motorist fees, etc. I have argued that they should see it, but I have had some second thoughts about it.
Following WWII millions of Americans were encouraged by government policy to buy cars and flee to the suburbs. Today most of them don't have a good alternative to their cars to get to work, shopping, entertainment, etc.
If the U.S. all of a sudden passed the true cost of driving through to motorists, it probably would cause a massive recession or perhaps a depression. Low and moderate income motorists, who are subsidized by upper income motorists, would be slammed.
Over time users should pay the true cost of their selected mode of transport. However, given the politics of transportation, especially driving, it probably never will happen.
daveklepperbut to be a true believer, I would have to believe it is the ideal situation, which it is not.
A true believer is a person who cares beyond just getting a paycheck for doing a day's work. One who is always thinking about ways to do things better. One who, no matter how beat down he gets, can't help but keep trying to move the ball forward.
In this case, that person would be thinking about making the most of the LD routes that exist. How to tweak the schedules to serve more people. How to arrange the product to attract the most patrons.
Ed Ellis is a "true believer". Jim McClellan is a "true believer". Fred Frailey is a "true believer.
They really care what happens.
I don't think Amtrak has many of those.
Sam1Maybe the true believers at Amtrak know that long distance passenger trains don't make any economic sense, and bowing to politics is the only reason for running them.
No. A true believer would say, "If we have to run them, why not make the best we can from them?" He would care. He would want to be proud of the effort.
Sam1 ...................... The land that has been taken off the tax rolls for roadways, including the interstate highways, which make up approximately 2.5 per cent of the roadway miles in the United States, would be difficult if not impossible to value for current tax purposes. ............................
............................
What is so difficult about it? The taxing authorities seem to have no problem determining an assessment value for the rail rights of way. Just use the same metrics for roads. Consider value of the land (adjacent use?), value of the improvements, especially bridges, number of lanes, traffic density. These numbers are all immediately to hand at city hall.
John
oltmannd Sam1 Maybe the true believers at Amtrak know that long distance passenger trains don't make any economic sense, and bowing to politics is the only reason for running them.
After 40 years of failure anyone who believes in the long distance passenger probably is not realistic. A true business believer knows when to cut the loses and get out of the game.
I don't understand why anyone with a business sense would work for a commercial enterprise (Amtrak) that continuously loses money.
Fred Frailey, et. al. can afford to be true believers. They don't wear the consequences, i.e. continuous losses, funding constraints, etc. of their true belief in long distance passenger trains.
cx500 Sam1 ...................... The land that has been taken off the tax rolls for roadways, including the interstate highways, which make up approximately 2.5 per cent of the roadway miles in the United States, would be difficult if not impossible to value for current tax purposes. ............................ What is so difficult about it? The taxing authorities seem to have no problem determining an assessment value for the rail rights of way. Just use the same metrics for roads. Consider value of the land (adjacent use?), value of the improvements, especially bridges, number of lanes, traffic density. These numbers are all immediately to hand at city hall. John
Taxing roadways would in effect require the government to tax itself. It would be akin to school districts, municipal governments, etc. taxing themselves. It does not make any sense. It is not going to happen.
An electric utility, for example, has a large, taxable property base. The taxing authorities have a difficult time assessing it for tax purposes.
In the Fortune 250 company that I worked for, we had 10 tax professionals that spent most of their time fussing with the tax appraisers over the fair market value of our property for tax purposes. It is not a simple exercise.
Agreed, taxing roadways would require the government to tax itself. That already happens in various other minor ways, and of course ends up as zero net. But ignoring it entirely means that the full cost of roads is underestimated. Determine what the tax base should be, and then forgive it. That forgiven amount is the subsidy to road users that it truly is.
Looking at a major urban interchange from the air makes very clear how much taxable land has been removed from the rolls. That is a significant lost opportunity cost which should be captured in the balance sheet. Accountants can pretend it doesn't exist by never including it in any cost/benefit calculations.
The costs for a rail network includes property tax, the costs for your electric utility network includes property tax, and I expect the same applies to pipelines. Only the road users get a free ride. This may be perfectly justified for the private automobile (you and I) but gives a competitive advantage to commercial users.
As to the matter of supplying funds for the maintenance of public roads, it is evident that gasoline tax revenue has fallen because of the increase in the use of cars that rely on electricity for propulsion. Recently, there was a letter to the editor in the local paper wherein the writer was priding himself on reducing pollution by driving either a hybrid vehicle or all-electric vehicle (I do not remember which)--and either ignoring or not realizing that he was not paying his proportional cost towards maintaining the roads he traveled on because he did not buy as much gasoline as someone who relied on gasoline alone does. He rejected the idea of a higher registration tax on his vehicle which would go towards paying his share of road maintenance.
Johnny
I can't help but think that having a LD passenger train depart and arrive on time is a heck of a lot more important to business travelers than an accomodation between sleepers and coach and a few dollars saved. Don't many business people travel on a company expense account?
I don't think 4 or 6-person compartments or the like would work here, either. Face it, most Americans weigh 50% more than their European counterparts. In the USA we like BIG; it doesn't have to be good or luxurious, but it has to be big. We simply wouldn't fit in European-sized rooms on trains.
Also, I can't believe that single women of any age traveling alone in the USA would want to sleep in a small room in their street clothes with strangers, even of the same gender.
As far as CityNightLine and LD sleeper service, I can attest that they no longer serve Paris or some other big cities. The food service onboard their trains is non-existant or not worth talking about. It seems to me that train travel in Europe is not what it was just a few short, say 2 or 4, years ago. The day trains are fast and on time, but clearly not the experience most older Yankee railfans recall with nostalgia.
Slumbercoach travel years ago was something one did just a few times. After that, one somehow found the money for a roomette. Slumbercoaches were nice to have for variety, but I don't miss them.
I think what is killing the overnight sleeper trains in Europe is the increase in train speed on those routes. When a 400 mile journey took 8 hours they made sense. But if it now takes only 3 hours most people will opt to take an evening train and enjoy the comforts of a hotel room with full facilities (or reach home).
I once rode a slumbercoach on the Burlington's Blackhawk in 1969. It was comfortable and reasonable. I thought it was as comfortable as an Amtrak economy sleeper. The sleepy hollow seats in the coaches used on some long distance passenger trains in the 1950's along with pillow service seems a better idea than couchettes.
I feel the primary traveler in an Amtrak sleeper is a pleasure traveler; not a business traveler. On the last trip I took on the Empire Builder virtually all the sleeping car passengers boarded in either Chicago, Milwaukee, LaCrosse or St Paul. No other sleeping car passengers boarded until Glacier National Park. Nearly all the sleeping car passengers were bound for either Seattle or Portland.
The coaches would have given a different story, of course, with lots of ons and offs at wayside stations in comparison.
Sam1 still doesn't wish to address the arguments for LDs that I present. Suppose a law was passed:
A freight railroad line that provides a decent level of good passenger service is exempt from real-estate taxes.
What are the figures? Would the savings be enough for freight railroads to justify subsidizing a high level of passenger service financially?
daveklepper The coaches would have given a different story, of course, with lots of ons and offs at wayside stations in comparison. Sam1 still doesn't wish to address the arguments for LDs that I present. Suppose a law was passed: A freight railroad line that provides a decent level of good passenger service is exempt from real-estate taxes. What are the figures? Would the savings be enough for freight railroads to justify subsidizing a high level of passenger service financially?
According to the Association of American Railroads, the nation’s Class 1 carriers passed through $960 million in property taxes in 2012. According to the Tax Foundation, the nation’s property tax bill in 2012 was $440.1 billion, which means the railroads collected 22/100s of one per cent of the total 2012 property taxes.
In 2012 the average revenue per carload for the Class 1s was $2,390. The average property tax burden per carload was $33.84 or 1.42 per cent of revenue. The average property tax burden per ton loaded was 55 cents, and the average property tax burden per ton mile was .00056 cents.
In FY14 the long distance trains lost $529.6 million before depreciation and interest. Amtrak does not allocate these items by route. Assuming, however, the long distance trains wear 10 per cent of depreciation and interest, which appears to be a resonable albeit educated guess, the fully allocated loss would have been $602 million.
If the Class 1s were relieved of their property tax burden, which is minimal, and the amount in FY14 was the same as FY12, the property taxes could cover the current long distance train deficit and leave $358 million for new routes or enhancements to existing routes.
Shifting the Class I property tax burden to cover the long distance trains deficits would be robbing Peter to pay Paul. Instead of paying property taxes to various taxing authorities, the railroads would embed the cost of covering the long distance train deficit, as well as any enhancements, in their shipping rates. The long distance train deficit would be covered by the end users, who buy goods shipped by rail, instead of the federal taxpayers.
If the Class 1s were relieved of their property tax burden, the taxing authorities that collect property taxes from the railroad probably would raise other taxes or implement new ones to cover their tax revenue deficit.
Sam1 Railroads do not pay property taxes. Or any other tax for that matter! Like all businesses they pass them through in their rates. The shipper pays the taxes and, in turn, passes them, as well as his business taxes, onto the end user in the price of the goods.
dakotafred Sam1 Railroads do not pay property taxes. Or any other tax for that matter! Like all businesses they pass them through in their rates. The shipper pays the taxes and, in turn, passes them, as well as his business taxes, onto the end user in the price of the goods. This is fallacious as applied to railroads vs. their competition. Because -- if the railroads don't "really" pay property taxes, their competition (trucks, airplanes, barges) doesn't really pay property taxes TWICE. This is so because trucks, airplanes and barges don't have to build into their rates that which the rails do -- the cost of that check written to the county treasurer. (Or, in our state, a check written to the state, which prorates it through the subdivisions.) In short, they're forced to pass on to the customer one fewer tax than the rails are, giving them that much of a rate advantage.
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