Rochester newspaper has article saying CSX is on board for a 125 MPH HSR ( HrSR ) line. Many questions are now up for grabs. This thread is for technical questions only.
1. Does this mean that they are willing for the tracks to be built on present ROW ?
2. If so will CSX get new track(s) to north of present tracks to service customers that are almost all on north side and passenger facilities on south of tracks ?
3. If so CSX and HSR would get tracks without any grade crossings over the whole segment. ? ( accident prevention ?)
4. Let others address financing.
5. Marketing would be able to meet time of day demand without any freight interference ?
6. If so this might be an indication of CSX's thoughts on WASH - Richmond - Petersburg ?
7. Would CSX be able to operate on HSR tracks when not interfering with passenger trains and the few customers south of tracks ?
http://www.rochesterhomepage.net/story/d/story/high-speed-rail-controversy/27757/hh5XrCWzHUKt37qeX8QsQw
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I read what CSX said to mean that the 90-110 mph proposals were non-starters because they would use the CSX ROW. The 125 mph proposal was acceptable because it would NOT use CSX property.
Reading between the lines, what it means is that CSX would not be for any proposal that would prevent them from adding additional track for freight service as some distant time in the future.
What elicited that response was a total lack of conferring with CSX when developing the proposals, it appears. There HAS to be something in this for CSX in order to get to an agreement - and you can't figure out what would be acceptable without involving them in the process.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
henry6New York's Southern Tier Line, the former Erie and Erie Lackawanna lines and owned by Norfolk Southern, is totally ignored by authorities. It could be a better and better used freight route and even passenger route if physical plant were more important than population centers. So it is ignored. Yet, as high and wide route thanks to the 1840's choice of 6 foot gauge, there is room to use. Even if those in power could see that there is a lot of east coast traffic that does not need Albany, Schenectady, Amsterdam, Utica, Rome, Syracuse, Rochester or even Buffalo to just ride through en route to Chicago or St. Louis. But, since the population is on the old Water Level Route, so are the votes.
I think the point of passenger rail service is to serve population centers. And even with high speed rail, most folks won't care to spend at least 8 hours to get from Chicago to NYC.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
henry6I smell money. CSX just wants to be sure anything done with HSR in NY won't cost CSX money to build or operate, won't hold CSX responsible for anything financially, won't interfere with CSX operations and opportunity to make money; they don't want to lose money or spend money. Oh, they do want the benefits of others spending the money, that's for sure!
henry6I
Why?
CSX is doing nicely without high speed rail along its right-of-ways. Its TTM Return on Sales (14.9%), Equity (17.7%), and Assets (5.8%) are well above the Road and Rail Averages, as well as the S&P 500 averages. Moreover, it has a relatively low TTM debt to equity ratio (87.8%) vs. the industry average of 109.6%.
CSX probably would do even better if it did not have Amtrak clogging up its property. Not only does Amtrak not pay the full cost of using the investor owned railroads tracks, it has been reducing its payments to them steadily, i.e. from $136.5 million in 2010 to $110 million in 2012. Amtrak has not released the FY13 numbers.
CSX is an investor owned company. It will make capital investments when and only when it benefits CSX. If someone else, i.e. Amtrak or another potential high speed passenger train operator wants to use its rights-of-way, CSX should be compensated one way or the other.
All,
Read as much of the DEIR as you can stand. I skimmed the executive summary. The analysis is set up on the basis of Maximum Operating Speed (MAS). There are two 90 MPH proposals, one 110, and one 125 MPH. All except the 125, which is an entirely two main track elecrified line are wholly or mostly on CSX roadbed. CSX says it is willing to go along with the 125 MPH which would be elevated through four intermediate stations. Not clear if that is on or adjacent to CSX.
The state is talking serious investment, one of the 90 MPH plans was $5.58 billion. The new line is $14.71B. All incur operating losses, apparently before any provision for capital recovery. So the capital cost evidently does not count.
If the state is serious they will go for the new line. Oh yes, they want the FRA to pay for it. Welfare for the State!
Mac
henry6New York's Southern Tier Line, the former Erie and Erie Lackawanna lines and owned by Norfolk Southern, is totally ignored by authorities. It could be a better and better used freight route
No. Grades are worse. Much worse. And there are two major grades. Ruling grade on the NYC from North Jersey to Chicago is 0.7%! It is flat and fast and fuel efficient. The Southern Tier route is dead for a good reason.
henry6NYS and Empire State Passenger Association and CSX have hammered these plans out over several years.
CSX has repeatedly said it wouldn't think about anything >79 mph. They were saying something different to NYS in private that you know about?
BTW, NS is willing to talk about 90 mph, but you better bring you checkbook. (and you better hurry up, because the head guy who just happens to like passenger trains a great deal only has a couple years left.)
oltmannd What elicited that response was a total lack of conferring with CSX when developing the proposals, it appears. There HAS to be something in this for CSX in order to get to an agreement - and you can't figure out what would be acceptable without involving them in the process.
Amen!
oltmannd henry6New York's Southern Tier Line, the former Erie and Erie Lackawanna lines and owned by Norfolk Southern, is totally ignored by authorities. It could be a better and better used freight route No. Grades are worse. Much worse. And there are two major grades. Ruling grade on the NYC from North Jersey to Chicago is 0.7%! It is flat and fast and fuel efficient. The Southern Tier route is dead for a good reason.
The Southern Tier is dead is because Conrail did not need a third route between New Jersey and Chicago in 1976. Had the EL survived intact another 10 years, it would have been the primary double-stack route to New Jersey (in spite of several significant grades). EL knew how to run intermodal over the line fast, they already had the UPS business, and the Southern Tier already had the clearances for double-stack, thanks to the original 6-ft gauge construction as noted in the earlier post.
henry6NYS and Empire State Passenger Association and CSX have hammered these plans out over several years. Now CSX is expressing concerns contrary to what it reportedly and worked for and agreed to. We must be careful to recognize the CSX's Water Level Route property is what it is: a former four track railroad now double tracked CTC or whatever is more modern. But that also means that the two tracks are further apart, with alterations to the ROW and that the two tracks use more of the ROW than two tracks used to...so it might not be accurate to say half the ROW can be used by CSX and the other half by Amtrak or HSR. New York's Southern Tier Line, the former Erie and Erie Lackawanna lines and owned by Norfolk Southern, is totally ignored by authorities. It could be a better and better used freight route and even passenger route if physical plant were more important than population centers. So it is ignored. Yet, as high and wide route thanks to the 1840's choice of 6 foot gauge, there is room to use. Even if those in power could see that there is a lot of east coast traffic that does not need Albany, Schenectady, Amsterdam, Utica, Rome, Syracuse, Rochester or even Buffalo to just ride through en route to Chicago or St. Louis. But, since the population is on the old Water Level Route, so are the votes.
Seems to me CSX could share the Southern Tier with NS and CP (who only go as far as Binghamton), and route the lower priority trains to New Jersey (if there are any) over the former Erie/EL Southern Tier. Then the former NYC Water Level Route would have more capacity available for higher speed passenger trains, after re-installing a third track to increase operating flexibility. Still big $$$ to increase speed and install track three on the Water Level Route and improve the Southern Tier east of Binghamton.
thegreatpumpkinit would have been the primary double-stack route to New Jersey (in spite of several significant grades
Nope. Grades require lots more locomotives which kill the economics. The Southern Tier is dead as a major route - and it will stay that way.
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