Orlando's startup of SunRail is scheduled for May 1st. It was visited the weekend of St. Patrick's day. Picked Sunday as Orlando traffic is horrific week days and Saturday but was still bad Sunday. Have a bunch of observations about the system.
It appears to be that SunRail spent its money fairly wisely and got the most bang for the buck. will try to cover some of these items. The south end of the phase 1 portion for May 1 is about 3 miles south of downtown Orlando to north of Sanford at DeBary.
SunRail is planning free orientation trips but no schedule is yet published. Trips will be every 30 minutes 5:30 -7:30 & 3:30-6:00 PM during rush and every 2 hours non rush south bound. North 6:15 -9:15 & 4:15 - 9:15 PM. Service time 56 minutes & 56 Sanford - Sand Lake. ( Note: see below about possible delays at draw bridge.
No weekend service but after observing crowds downtown Orlando and Winter Park maybe will be added.
1. Stations. ---
a. Access to the stations were severely limited due to ongoing Sunday construction and parking lots not completely paved. All the station designs are mostly a cookie cutter approach. The station's platforms are almost identical, fairly Spartan, and appear to be vandal resistant. there are no expensive overpasses or underpasses with the incumbent maintenance that would be required.
b. Platforms are all located on the outside of tracks with no center platform except at Sand Lake and Orlando Amtrak station. All access from the far track platform is by 3 - 5 pedestrian crosswalks across the tracks with fences between the crosswalks. Crosswalk Protection has not been completed but appears to be knee high grade crossing lights and future automatic gates -- nature unknown.
c. The temporary south end Sand Lake station has either 2 or 3 storage tracks with platforms on both sides of each track isolated from both main tracks but a future main track platform far side could not be determined.
d. The Orlando health/Amtrak station has three tracks from CPs somewhat distance from the station. Would estimate a 24 + car Amtrak could park there without fouling either CP. With platforms on each side of all three tracks for the first time an opposite Amtrak could park on track 2 while first Amtrak loads on track 1. SunRail is set to load at north end of station so passengers can go around Amtrak when Amtrak is in station. Note: when no Amtrak passengers can cross track 1 or SunRail can load on track 1. ( TVMs on that platform )
e. Down town stations do not have parking but are well laid out. Old Main Street station ( ex SAL ) was preserved. Downtown was well populated probably due to St. Pats day ?
f. The Winter Park station certainly presented design problems that were well handled. The tracks at that station are NE - SW alignment so there are many streets that cross at an angle. The single track was doubled with Amtrak length platforms on outside of both tracks. The platforms were raised at each street with ADA compliant ramps from street to platforms.
g. Sanford station although 2 - 1/2 (?) miles from downtown Sanford city had a very large parking lot on state route 46 ( 2 - 3 lane each way divided highway) . This station is located about 3/4 miles north of the Sanford Auto Train depot. The Sun Rail station at Sanford appears to be a location of a new Sanford Amtrak station.
2. Tracks ----- Structure is well maintained to what appears class-4 standards.
a. Many crossovers from tracks 1 and 2 are present throughout system.
b. Freight turnouts are well maintained
c. All double track except the single track single leaf bascule bridge over the St. johns river. The bridge has extensively remolded approach decks but the draw span may be a future problem. Draw span does need a good coat of paint. Sunday river traffic was very heavy at 1600. The clearance was only 7 feet even though river was down and a high water mark might only be 3 feet clearance. When bridge lowered for auto train it took three tries to get it to lock. Granted wind was blowing about 15 MPH. Bridge opening every 15 minutes during rush hour may break something + 6 Amtrak and freight ?
There is only presently one station north of the river but when Deland phase=2 is built then a definite passenger load may occur. Maintenance facility south of bridge
Suspect that draw bridge is going to be an intermittent problem for southbound timekeeping. When funds are finally obtained a double track flyover much like TriRail's bridge over the New river at Ft. Lauderdale will be constructed. With freight staying on the draw. The CPs double track to single track on each side of bridge appear to provide for that eventuality. If bridge fails up maintenance facility may be able to provide standby train ?
3. Signals. -- A real surprise there. The system appears to be very state of the art.
a. As mentioned earlier all pedestrian crossings at stations have miniature grade crossing signals. How the final set up will be was not observed.
b. Every station has leaving signals for engineer to go track speed on both tracks both directions.
c, All sidings have a leaving signal usually a miniature pot signal with mostly power switches and main track signals guarding the siding. North of Auto Train station had 4 track overhead signals.
d. There was a CSX empty coal train heading north at the Amtrak Orlando station. CSX was on track 2 with a diverging clear to track 1 at CP north of station. Once past CP Track 2 quickly changed to a north bound clear . Then track 1 signal progressed to north bound clear. Was unable to determine if an advanced approach signal was given but could have as signal was two full 3 light heads that could have given Y over Y.
e. Then the surprise. The south bound side of the CP also showed clear on both tracks. It was as if the system operated as an ABS system except when dispatcher placed a track occupancy ????
f. No other trains were available to check this hypothesis.
4. Maintenance facility -- Time prevented from checking but it is located very close to Auto Train maintenance building which may enable cross parts and / or employees usage ?
5. Did not observe any rolling stock.
6. Expansion Phase - 2. This may be more expensive south of downtown as there are many siding serving various businesses + 2 short line RRs & a small intermodal terminal. Do not know how much if any double track is present. Understand will soon close intermodal terminal,
a. From Sand Lake station south to final destination to S. Poinciana no official work is being done. The Phase-2 is supposed to start later this summer but SunRail is already doing some projects. Several culverts have been rebuilt all to 2 track whether double track in place or not.
b. Signals have been placed in some places with some mostly lower heads turned aside.
c. Some line side signal wires are removed.
d. Where it could be observed a major crosstie replacement on the single track is now occurring. Even on the Sunday a tie gang from G.W. Peoples was waiting for southbound Meteor to clear at Kissimmee to replace ties. Equipment included a spiker, tie removal and inserter, a high dollar surfacing machine and ballast regulator.. The number of Ties set out indicated average of every third tie to be replaced. Around Kissimmee the old track location of ACL removed second track has been cleared for re double tracking. This may allow double tracking to proceed faster if present main is class-4 ? All grade crossings had hardwood ties ready for every tie replacement.
e, The Amtrak Kissimmee station if used for SunRail will need some upgrading much like Winter Park and probably quite a few bus bays. The parking area pavement is very poor.
f. The two other intermediate station locations already have a lot of pre SunRail development occurring.
g. The south end station at Poinciana has a large amount of space for a terminating station NW of tracks CSX track now begins about 300 feet beyond road with a CP for a southbound siding.. There is also a Home Depot across tracks from the possible future station location. This is at a location of 2 - 4 lane divided highways.
h. No report on Phase-2 to Deland.
I. There may be a future route to the NW from the Main street station over the old SAL route.
j. A very unlikely shuttle route addition would be from the Sanford station past Auto Train, to south of downtown Sanford over old CSX tracks . Then new ROW continuing to the Sanford airport..
k. Another possibility would be follow the power plant track and divert to Orlando airport. That would connect to AAF
Edit MAY 3 2014
SunRail will have a 'soft' start in April with the official start in May.
Editor Emeritus, This Week at Amtrak
For the locals, there will be display trains this weekend at the DeBary on Saturday and at Sand Lake Road on Sunday. http://sunrail.com/
Orlando newspaper has a comparison of CLT's LYNX to what is the potential of Sun Rail. The longer distances between stops in Orlando may be a factor ?
First ridership figures may be revealing ? Biggest problem for Sun Rail is the line not going to Kissimmee yet ?
http://www.mynews13.com/content/news/cfnews13/news/article.html/content/news/articles/cfn/2014/4/22/sunrail_comparison_2.html
blue streak 1 Orlando newspaper has a comparison of CLT's LYNX to what is the potential of Sun Rail. The longer distances between stops in Orlando may be a factor ? First ridership figures may be revealing ? Biggest problem for Sun Rail is the line not going to Kissimmee yet ? http://www.mynews13.com/content/news/cfnews13/news/article.html/content/news/articles/cfn/2014/4/22/sunrail_comparison_2.html
Commuter rail and light rail are really two different animals. Commuter rail, which is usually a locomotive pulling cars, usually is diesel powered and covers longer routes. The stations are usually much farther apart than light rail. Light rail is usually electric and local oriented. The electric power is more appropriate for the frequent starts and stops. Light rail usually runs more frequent headways.
CATS does have plans to add a commuter line to the Lynx system, but it is, so far, just a plan. Right now they are extending the Blue Line another 9 miles and building the Gold Line, Trolley.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Phoebe Vet blue streak 1 Orlando newspaper has a comparison of CLT's LYNX to what is the potential of Sun Rail. The longer distances between stops in Orlando may be a factor ? First ridership figures may be revealing ? Biggest problem for Sun Rail is the line not going to Kissimmee yet ? http://www.mynews13.com/content/news/cfnews13/news/article.html/content/news/articles/cfn/2014/4/22/sunrail_comparison_2.html Commuter rail and light rail are really two different animals. Commuter rail, which is usually a locomotive pulling cars, usually is diesel powered and covers longer routes. The stations are usually much farther apart than light rail. Light rail is usually electric and local oriented. The electric power is more appropriate for the frequent starts and stops. Light rail usually runs more frequent headways.
Commuter rail may be a majority diesel-powered in the US, but not elsewhere. Push-pull service is also long standing, as are electric multiple units on the east coast and to the south and southeast from Chicago.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Phoebe Vet Commuter rail and light rail are really two different animals. Commuter rail, which is usually a locomotive pulling cars, usually is diesel powered and covers longer routes. The stations are usually much farther apart than light rail. Light rail is usually electric and local oriented. The electric power is more appropriate for the frequent starts and stops. Light rail usually runs more frequent headways.
The Capital Metro Red Line in Austin, which runs approximately 32 miles from Leander, TX to downtown Austin, TX is a commuter rail service. It runs on the Austin and Western, which is a freight hauler owned by Capital Metro. The Red Line uses Stadler rail cars. It serves nine stations, including the end points in Leander and Austin.
The Denton County Transit Authority, which operates what it calls a commuter train between Denton, TX and Lewisville, TX, also uses Stadler rail cars. The route is 21 miles long and serves five stations in Denton and Lewisville. It provides connections with DART's Green Line, which is a light rail line.
The Trinity Rail Express, which runs between Dallas and Fort Worth, is a commuter operation. It uses diesel electric locomotives and Bombardier commuter coaches in a push/pull configuration. It operates over approximately 30 miles and serves 10 stations, including the end points of the T&P Station in Fort Worth and Union Station in Dallas.
The lack of weekend service at the outset should not be a major issue. Considering that SunRail is starting from scratch, it would make a certain amount of sense to see how consistent weekday ridership pans out before weekend service is added.
The three Texas operations that I referenced don't offer Sunday service. However, in the case of Trinity Railway Express, one can reach most of the stations served by the train on a bus. It is much slower going than by the TRE, but it can be done.
With Sun Rail starting tomorrow already there are dreams of extending it to Daytona Beach. For those not aware of history. The Volusia county leaders in the 1960 - 70s turned down a request for support of a tourist theme park as a pipe dream. Volusia actually had more land available. So it went to Kissimmee. instead.
http://www.news-journalonline.com/article/20140428/news/140429441?p=1&tc=pg
Have changed title as will become apparent.
Arrived Orlando today and all media reports showed all trains SRO jammed, Did not observe trains yet but even this first 2 days of free rides in the downpours that occurred here have not stopped riders from flocking to trains.
All trains shown were just 2 cars ( cc & coach ) + loco.. Trains ended up being late due to ? Could be unfamiliarity of riding trains causing longer than planned dwell times ? Additionally due to high demand Sun Rail continued 1/2 hr schedule at mid day which left no time for schedule recovery. Schedule only requires 3 train sets ? Will try to find out why no longer trains unless equipment not yet available ?,
It will be much more useful to see what the ridership figures show when SunRail begins collecting fares. Free rides don't indicate a realistic ridership.
CSSHEGEWISCH It will be much more useful to see what the ridership figures show when SunRail begins collecting fares. Free rides don't indicate a realistic ridership.
Orlando newspaper video of day 2, Notice lady conductor says take next train. end of video reminds me of the LIRR Dashing Dan ?
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/sunrail/os-sunrail-day-2-20140502,0,2169572.story
First day time lapse video DeBary station is at north end of line. So at present push south pull north.
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/videogallery/80074876/Take-a-ride-on-SunRail-in-this-inaugural-day-2-minute-time-lapse-video
few odds and ends
first a few corrections. It actually takes 5 train sets to operate schedule. There were 7 locos and 20 coaches ordered. So probable maximum train size would be 3 -4 cars. Shuttle buses to / from rail stations are a combined fare so exactly how it will work is still unknown.
Now
1. Boardings were ~~ 10,500 + 10,800 Thursday may 1st & ~~ 10,400 + Friday May 2nd.
2. Regular # of trains are 32 but unknown # of extra unknown so if ~~ 40 trains that gives ~~ average of 260 boardings per run.
3. Seating capacity of cars unknown but if 120 / car then definitely some trains overcrowded.
4. Another reason for some late trains was a motorist crashed a crossing gate causing trains to be flagged thru for several hours until gate repaired.
5. Already calls for weekend service but the need for extra crews due to HOS is not understood.
6. Will investigate some items when riding Monday.
7. All stations reported as 100% complete will see.
A few corrections --------
Thursday was 10,800 boarding's but how measured ? ?
Anticipated number Thursday and Friday was expected to be 4200 so ~~ 2-1/2 times higher than anticipated..
Due to other obligations will ride Tuesday if no other changes ? ?
Rode Sun Rail yesterday on scheduled 4:15 trip but first:
A few corrections of misreporting that this poster made. There probably are other items since there was too much to take in at one time.
1. Station platforms are 4 cars in length except for Amtrak stations at Downtown Orlando and Winter Park.
2. Each car capacity is 150 seated and 300 total ( which is suspect ). So 2 car train set crush capacity might be 1200 ?
3. Despite previous press releases Sun Rail is not fully double tracked. There is approximately a 3 mile section north of Winter Park to just south of Altamonte Springs that is single track. There appears to be enough ROW for double track although ROW is somewhat narrower. This single track will cause south bound delays as Altamonte is scheduled for north and south trains to meet if northbound is late. Or north bound delayed at Winter Park.
The only other single track is the 1000 feet over the St. Johns river drawbridge.
4. Signal system seemed to be operated as normal CTC not modified ABS
5. All low level pedestrian crossing signals have been installed except DeBary.
Now for the trips
11. Rail appeared to be either 136 or 141 # rail. Crossties all wood.
12. About 1/2 of passengers at Sand Lake ( present southern most station ) appeared to be one time visitors but the waiting parked cars indicated a large amount commuters waiting to return ?
13. Departed 17 late due to late arrival of train and passenger confusion about how to board. Just as we left next train arrived from north. Our Train still had a few seats
14. Lost another 5 minutes due to conductor having to flag couple of reported crossing malfunctions.
15. Next two stops train filled up with what appeared to be health workers and business persons and by next stop train was announced to outside persons to take next train. Were at least 100 - 150 left behind at each station most dressed as business persons. We were 35 late by that time so next train was 5 late behind us and saw his headlights all the way to the north end.
16. At Winter Park had to stop at south end of platform as station now has ADA platforms only at south end.. Note: All ADA platforms are at south end of stations at the control cab which faces south. If there was another ADA about half way then the following train could have come in and picked up the passengers who were confused as to why we had no room. More delay!
17. Heard comment passed around "aren't you glad we are not driving I-4 seen out the window.
18. At several grade crossings saw different cars that pulled across tracks with rear ends not clearing. Just missed one about 3". Good thing he was on outside of track curve and not inside ! ! Expect collisions will happen soon somewhere ! !
19. Lots of persons getting off at each stop and finally seating for all at Sanford. Parking lot appeared to have been full at one point. How big parking ? Unknown.
20. Arrived at DeBary 43 late with other train just behind that used the west track which is the only thru track at this time.
21. That parking lot had cars on the grass. Heard today that Sun Rail got some remote parking locations at DeBary and Sanford. Local transit agencies are busing passengers to and from same.
22. Left DeBary 40 late with other train just behind us. By Maitland SRO and again waiting passengers were told to take next train.
23. Our train started left hand running once clear the single track all the way to Sand Lake with following train taking right hand track to pick up passengers.
24. Still many waiting passengers did not listen or read announcements as to what was happening, Mob waiting at Winter Park.
25. Both trains ran neck and neck to Sand lake arriving 30 seconds after us..
26. Train SRO until past Amtrak station.
Odds and ends,
31. Today was reported a couple extra trains during mid day slack. IMO this might become a permanent schedule.
32. One train will have 3 cars today. IMO may need more as was surprised at number of apparent workers taking train.
33. A big item == Many stations did not have space allocated for easily lengthened platform. They may have same problem that Charlotte's blue line is experiencing. Once Deland and Kissimmee are added ridership will probably expand dramatically.
34. Parking at Sanford and DeBary will be a problem even with remote parking. Sand Lake parking - NO.
35. Better crowd control needed especially at this first riding.
36. Sun Rail is using almost all its employees at the various stations. Met a couple car cleaners.
37. When running left main at 2 locations the left side signals were obscured until only 100 feet which would not have happened during normal right hand running. One signal by parked tall freight cars on a siding and one by a tree(s). Wonder who to tell ?
38. Conductor was one busy person.
39. Crossing signal malfunctions are a real problem with 4 having to be flagged north bound and one south. This kept conductor especially busy north bound when she had to come from Cab Car ADA door to front of loco to flag crossing and then back.
40. Some old pole lines have not been removed.
41. All other stops with parking had lots very full.
42. Keeping internal destination signs and announcements working needs revising as conductor was unable to get to controls to chanrge due to SRO ?
43. Many station stops are just north of a street. That causes gates to remain down until they time out ( 2 - 3 minutes ). Other agencies have a tone system where engineer can cause gates to cancel and then lower when ready to move. This should not be addressed until regular service dwell time shows the need for some kind of canceling system ?
44. May need more signal maintainers for crossing problems and qualify them for flagging ?
45. All in all expect the way this crush load was handled that these problems will be fixed.
46. Say the 2 or 3 car DMUs bi-levels parked at maintenance facility.
47. May need more equipment sooner rather than later ?
Not even an hour after posting trip report Sun Rail hit a landscaping truck. No details but reported no injuries. Well probably one piece of equipment needing some repair work ?
EDIT: Was northbound train so loco hit truck. Near Longwood station. If crossing described saw a police car there watching us pass. Passengers transferred to next train. Single tracking around accident. Sure helps to have at least one CP between each station. sometimes more.
Well first reports are always incorrect. Just saw aerial view. Train was approaching Longwood station and a dual tire truck puling a trailer did not clear the road just south of the station. Only trailer completely demolished truck appeared OK. Guess it was good train slowing for station ?
Understand penalties for these incidents are stiff ?
Few more corrections.
1. Snow plow pilot appears to have only scrapes after accident. Loco # 103
2. Trailer not demolished only spun around as train slowing and then in emergency approaching station.
other items
11. Late train complainers do not realizes that motorists snagging grade crossing are causing delays
12. SunRail has "another train coming" warning signs at many pedestrian crossings. Carl will appreciate.
For those interested Orlando newspaper has several articles. Warning this web site is one of the slowest encountered in a long time. So surfing thru the articles takes time. This link is directly to article but going to home page then digging thru local news takes time.
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/sunrail/os-sunrail-lessons-learned-20140507,0,5575326.story
blue streak 1 For those interested Orlando newspaper has several articles. Warning this web site is one of the slowest encountered in a long time. So surfing thru the articles takes time. This link is directly to article but going to home page then digging thru local news takes time. http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/sunrail/os-sunrail-lessons-learned-20140507,0,5575326.story
Found out the slowness of the site when I attempted to view the 'video' of the 1st days operation.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
.Had several business locations to visit yesterday. On one leg detoured by a SunRail station. Got stopped at crossing for train. Bicycle rider came up to gate and walked around gate with bike and mounted up. Next thing he knew was a blue light special behind him. Gets off with the universal gesture " what is the problem officer ? "
Watched the futile argument as ticket written out. Fines are steep here. Maybe the work will get out ?
BTW there were at least 3 different police cars at that location so he had to see at least one.
Media report today that 2 - 4 gates a day are striking autos, Pulling too far up ?
I think that SunRail probably has more grade crossings per mile than any other system that has observed ?
SunRail averaged 11,200+ during free ride time. Now the real ridership test begins Monday.
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/sunrail/os-sunrail-starts-charging-20140518,0,5051042.story
blue streak 1 SunRail averaged 11,200+ during free ride time. Now the real ridership test begins Monday.
Monday's paid ridership 4100 close to the projected 4300. however a source tells me that the ticket machines are not working well and he thinks that many rode free ? Did not see any fare checking. Does it seem that it is a problem whenever any agency institutes a new fare system ? Guess each agency has vendor that invents the wheel all over ?
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/sunrail/os-sunrail-day-one-riders-20140520,0,5804077.story
This is not so much a new fare system as a new service. The learning curve is going to be pretty steep at this point since all facets of this operation are new, not just the fares.
A new driver stalled a stick shift auto in front of a north bound train with predictable results. This occurred on the only single track section just south of Maitland station. No reported damage to loco. This is close to where pickup trailer was hit last week. Train was 3 cars which is puzzling when free rides were 2 car trains. Several friends in Orlando predict that these accidents will become a frequent occurrence. Just too many auto grade crossings. Still having many problems with fare system.
Link but remember it is slow and loaded with 30 second ad.
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/sunrail/os-sunrail-crash-video-20140522,0,5076294.storyew
A better link
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/
CATS had a lot of trouble with the fare machines during the first couple of months. They responded by only issuing warnings to people with no ticket and putting them off at the next stop.
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