Today's News Wire tells of the westbound Empire Builder getting bumped off BNSF between Fargo and Minot because oil traffic and weather problems have led the road to start directional running on its two lines between those points. The eastbound Builder is unaffected.
Amtrak is busing its westbound passengers between Fargo and Minot. The story doesn't say how Amtrak manages to turn its equipment in this logistical nightmare.
This is a crock, and had damn well better be shortlived. The Builder route, which goes through the flooded Devils Lake region, recently received a $100-million upgrade, with Amtrak, the state and the feds kicking in two-thirds of the money. At the time, the western 200 miles was used only by the Builder.
From the Newswire story, I have the impression that the westbound Empire Builder runs through from Chicago to the Pacific Northwest, going through New Rockford; only the passengers to/from intermediate stations between Fargo and Minot are bussed.
Johnny
I think you're right, Deggesty; makes a lot more sense. I suppose the story could have made it easier for us hard-of-thinking types by coming right out and stating that the westbound Builder is operating via New Rockford.
Thanks.
What may become a concern is that precedence might enable UP to demand directional running of the Eagle between STL - Dallas. Any thoughts ?
Several penalties
1. Refund all the money to the state, Amtrak, FRA for devils lake upgrades
2. BNSF agree to rebuild SW Chief route
3. No charge to Amtrak to change SWC to Amarillo route.
4. Other ideas ?
Assuming that ATK is in fact harmed, the limit of BNSF liability would be to pay for the cost of the bus.
Mac
Since this directional running is to be on going maybe Amtrak could institute some unmanned temporary stops for west bounds? Could entice a few more passengers + the temp might be closer for some present passengers ? Any suggestions for these temporary stops?
Streak, if BNSF is like UP, it probably wouldn't allow them -- for insurance reasons?
On my last fall's trip, the eastbound CZ detoured through southern Wyoming. At Green River, first thing in the morning, the conductor broke the bad news to smokers that there would be no "smoking stops" all day -- until Denver, that evening -- because the U.P. no longer had facilities where passengers could safely detrain.
I can see that. In my experience, the first thing a railroad does, dating back to May 1971, when it has finally succeeded in shaking off passengers, is to remove the accommodations -- platforms, etc. A prophylactic strategy ... against those dratted passengers ever coming back!
this not a hobby. in 2014 if it don't pay the bills it is gone.
Also, the tax man usually showed no mercy to those now-unused passenger facilities, probably the main reason for getting rid of them.
Not to be inflammatory, but this seems likely to happen more and more in the future with capacity constraints. It is another reason why LD passenger trains running on freight RoW's will be isolated (once daily or 3X/week) and even unreliable as transportation.
For examples:
1 The EB
2 The CZ
3 The Raton routing questions for the SWC
4 The Sunset problems
5 The difficulty with connecting LA with Las Vegas with any fairly fast service because the route is already crowded with UP freight.
6 Crescent stoppages at ATL because of trackwork beyond to NOL intermittently.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Agreed. And Amtrak had better hang onto its keister. The BS from UP associated with restoration of a daily Sunset was bad enough. Wait until we face losing something like the Chief altogether.
I hope Boardman is ready to go to the mat over some of these issues, up to invoking the terms of the original congressional act in court, if necessary.
I understand the capacity constraints of the freight railroads, and appreciate their property rights. At the same time, I think UP and BNSF are taking advantage of Amtrak here. And I'm enough of a LD-passenger fan to want Amtrak to fight.
East Bound Empire Builder is 12 hours late today. Guess the directional running isn't really helping.
BNSF needs add More Track in ND area say 2 to 3 track Main LIne.
petitnj East Bound Empire Builder is 12 hours late today. Guess the directional running isn't really helping.
I noticed that also, but most of the delay occurred between the Twin Cities and Red Wing -- normally about a 90 minute run. The westbound lost several hours on the same stretch. I assume there was some track trouble between those points.
This morning NPR had a piece about Amtrak's lousy on-time performances, particularly the Empire Builder, but also others. It was a good piece and explained the situation well. In this particular story I felt bad for the ice fishing tour entrepreneur who was losing his financial shirt thanks to the EB's unreliability.
As I listened I thought for sure I'd hear the culprits were the aging equipment and snow. Instead, BNSF got both barrels for its freight train-first policies. Consequently, I just felt rather depressed because it seems the traveling public will now see Amtrak as not just always late, but so unreliable as to be simply not worth traveling on in the first place.
How did this nation ever fight and win WW2? Did these railroad lines not run in the winter with passenger trains kept on time? If you think about how much more primitive railroading was in the early and middle 20th century, it boggles the mind to see how things are tied up in knots these days.
I know the country has probably tripled in population. I know there's lots more traffic now. I know the track crews have been nearly eliminated.
But I also know what dakotafred pointed out: Namely, we have seen this movie before, in the early 1960's, when, once again, the railroads simply wanted passenger trains off their (own!) tracks. The NYC once scheduled trains from GCT to arrive in Albany after the connecting trains to the west had departed. Who would want to ride under those conditions? And guess what happened to NYC passenger train service?
Today BNSF can simply delay trains for a half day or so and just hunger and thirst that Amtrak will take them to court, where, I'm sure the same tired anti-public service arguments I sometimes see in this room will be trotted out. The predictable result will not be favorable to Amtrak.
Although Wm. Vanderbilt never really said it, this is indeed another case of railroads thinking, "the public be damned."
Sad. In 21st century America.
NKP guy But I also know what dakotafred pointed out: Namely, we have seen this movie before, in the early 1960's, when, once again, the railroads simply wanted passenger trains off their (own!) tracks. The NYC once scheduled trains from GCT to arrive in Albany after the connecting trains to the west had departed. Who would want to ride under those conditions? And guess what happened to NYC passenger train service? Today BNSF can simply delay trains for a half day or so and just hunger and thirst
Today BNSF can simply delay trains for a half day or so and just hunger and thirst
It is why Amtrak cannot rely on shared track (with private freight lines) if we want good public passenger service in the US, whether corridor or long distance.
I played the NPR newscast on their web suite. My quarrel with it was they presented the eastbound that was 13 hours late into Chicago as a specific example of the problem, but they failed to mention that the primary cause of that occurred in southeastern Minnesota and not on the BNSF.
Dak,
Since when has the media ever let the facts get in the way of a good fairy tale?
Dakguy201 I played the NPR newscast on their web suite. My quarrel with it was they presented the eastbound that was 13 hours late into Chicago as a specific example of the problem, but they failed to mention that the primary cause of that occurred in southeastern Minnesota and not on the BNSF.
Are you saying that most of the 13 hour delay occurred in the CP stretch from St.Paul to LaCrosse, which normally takes 2 hrs, 53 min. (136 miles)?
NKP guy How did this nation ever fight and win WW2? Did these railroad lines not run in the winter with passenger trains kept on time? If you think about how much more primitive railroading was in the early and middle 20th century, it boggles the mind to see how things are tied up in knots these days.
21st Century railroads are not the railroads of WW II era. Railroad employment of the WW II era was well over 1 million and probably approaching 2 million.
MofW was staffed by section forces of 8 to 10 men that were headquarted every 8 to 15 miles across the line with members of the section living within walking distance of their reporting point. Train & engine crew members also mostly lived within walking distance of their reporting point and received their calls from a 'Outside Caller' knocking on their door or window to convey the information. Needless to say the motive power of the day was mostly steam with a 'smattering' of diesels. Train Dispatching was done by Timetable and Train Orders with very limited installations of Centrailzed Traffic Control and Automatic Block Signals on most of the Main Lines.
In bad Winter weather the railroads had the manpower to literally dig their properties out of the effects of the storm
In the 21st Century, the industry's total employment is approximately 230K. MofW staffing generally consists of 6 to 8 men with a territory of 80 to 100 miles and the personnel can live virtually any distance from their reporting point. Train and engine crews also can live at virtually any distance they can normally cover in under two hours from their reporting point. Most Main Line trackage is under Centralized Traffic Control that uses commercial telephone and radio circuits to manipulate the control points. In Winter weather, current day railroad manpower is constrained by the same highway traffic issues getting to their reporting points that affects everyone else in the area that is affected by the Winter weather. If something breaks, or freezes - it is going to stay broken until someone can reach the location and that can take a while.
21st Century life in this country is based upon timely highway travel and near instant communications both of which require a stable electrical system. Winter weather jeapordizes all those systems and brings them to a stop. The 21st Century railroads move more tonnage with 230K employees than the 2 million WW II employees ever dreamed. Rail passenger service is not a big concern for the Class 1 carriers other than to conduct it safely. Releasing a passenger train into territory where it may become stranded is not safe and the carriers act upon that, almost to the point of cowardice.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Yes, Schlimm, that is exactly what I intended to say. I have seen nothing on this forum or anywhere else that explains what occurred that would lead to that kind of a delay. Nor am I certain of the exact point near the Twin Cities where Amtrak transitions from BNSF to CP -- although I think it is just north of Hastings MN.
As to the delay, I have a memory of seeing a notice of a freight train problem (derailing?) in the area--but I do not remember where I saw it; I could not find it in the Newswire history.
As to where Amtrak enters CP track, we need to look at the situation between St. Croix Tower and Division Street. Westbound, traffic moves on the BNSF from St. Croix Tower to Newport (m.p. 410.5 to 422.2) and on the CP from Newport to Division Street (m.p. 402.5 to 409.4); Amtrak #7 leaves the joint trackage at Hoffman Avenue (m. P. 408.8), and then uses CP track to Merriam Park (m.p. 416.0), where it takes the former Minnesota Transfer to a connection with the BNSF for points west (Midway Station is 0.7 miles from Merriam Park). Note: there is a discrepancy between the mile post shown for Hoffman Ave (408.8 in the Joint TT I have, and 408.9 in the MILW TT I have).
Eastbound, #8 enters CP track at Merriam Park, then enters BNSF track at Hoffman Avenue (m.p. 429.1), proceeds to Newport (m.p.422.2/402.5), and then enters CP track for the run to Chicago.
Now, does anyone have the milepost(s) for St. Paul Union Station?
BaltACDRail passenger service is not a big concern for the Class 1 carriers other than to conduct it safely.
Exactly my point. They are basically incompatible.
BaltACD NKP guy How did this nation ever fight and win WW2? Did these railroad lines not run in the winter with passenger trains kept on time? 21st Century railroads are not the railroads of WW II era. Railroad employment of the WW II era was well over 1 million and probably approaching 2 million. In bad Winter weather the railroads had the manpower to literally dig their properties out of the effects of the storm In the 21st Century, the industry's total employment is approximately 230K. . In Winter weather, current day railroad manpower is constrained by the same highway traffic issues getting to their reporting points that affects everyone else in the area that is affected by the Winter weather. If something breaks, or freezes - it is going to stay broken until someone can reach the location and that can take a while. 21st Century life in this country is based upon timely highway travel and near instant communications both of which require a stable electrical system. Winter weather jeapordizes all those systems and brings them to a stop. The 21st Century railroads move more tonnage with 230K employees than the 2 million WW II employees ever dreamed.
NKP guy How did this nation ever fight and win WW2? Did these railroad lines not run in the winter with passenger trains kept on time?
How did this nation ever fight and win WW2? Did these railroad lines not run in the winter with passenger trains kept on time?
In the 21st Century, the industry's total employment is approximately 230K. . In Winter weather, current day railroad manpower is constrained by the same highway traffic issues getting to their reporting points that affects everyone else in the area that is affected by the Winter weather. If something breaks, or freezes - it is going to stay broken until someone can reach the location and that can take a while.
21st Century life in this country is based upon timely highway travel and near instant communications both of which require a stable electrical system. Winter weather jeapordizes all those systems and brings them to a stop. The 21st Century railroads move more tonnage with 230K employees than the 2 million WW II employees ever dreamed.
Just a few points.
AMTRAK:
1. HOS during WW-2 was 16 hours and almost no penalty if the 16 was exceeded. No 30 hour off every week was required .
2. WW-2 Steam locos required many more loco crews when double heading required. So each division had many more crews.
3. RRs could move freight crews to cover a passenger trip.
4. Now if freight engineer is running Amtrak train then an Amtrak person is required in train cab to monitor HEP.
5. Most importantly The standard operating distance for a train service crew was only about 100 miles now we hear of 300 mile runs.
BNSF
6. #1, 2 & 5 all apply.
7. If a division needs "X" number of crews to cover trains " X-1 ") crews will soon back up the division. Much worse with "X-2
8. After viewing the living conditions around Devils Lake you can understand why many train service crews may transfer out. Anyone know the rules ? Worse still they may quit ?
POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS
9. BNSF may offer temporary service to train service crews allowing only extra crews from surplus divisions.
a. Certain level of extra TDY pay to previously qualified crews.
b. Then other "volunteers" that can be quickly qualified.
c. BNSF would probably need to import very desirable camp cars to put up these temporary crews.
d. Anyone know if BNSF is trying to run crews from Minot - Fargo to prevent any limo Dead heading. What are its regular crew change points? As well Amtrak?. How many crews especially Amtrak qualified over the alternate routes ?
10 Congress needs to revise the HOS on duty rules to be more "realistic" How? I'll leave it to others. Especially do not strand passengers and train crews at dangerous locations. That means locations where proper shelter can be obtained. Not such as what happened with METRA.
Point 10 suggests a willingness to compromise on safety for the sake of getting the trains over the line. A less-than-alert crew is a risky way of mitigating crew shortages and other congestion.
CSSHEGEWISCH Point 10 suggests a willingness to compromise on safety for the sake of getting the trains over the line. A less-than-alert crew is a risky way of mitigating crew shortages and other congestion.
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