V.Payne For starters, provide daily common carrier service to the three other communities that would loose service where none is provided by buses. But the real arguement that this post started out with is the degree to which this service coud be radically improved at low cost. Greater cost for sure but more revenue as well and more passenger miles. Sander's book talks about a 4:15 runtime on this route back after some small line upgrades were made. Greyhound, offers 3:10 to 3:45 (with one stop) run times to downtown Chicago. I have a hard time believing that 4:00 even couldn't happen once the Chicago upgrades are done and with some minimal upgrades elsewhere. That would give you a 6:30 departure from Indianapolis for a 9:30 arrival into Chicago, perfect for business. Add a suburban Indianapolis stop, make the train 7 coaches and a cafe and watch the ridership triple at little additional operating cost. The operating loss would drop to less than the financial cost to governments of automobile accidents, which is where the rides would come from mostly.
For starters, provide daily common carrier service to the three other communities that would loose service where none is provided by buses.
But the real arguement that this post started out with is the degree to which this service coud be radically improved at low cost. Greater cost for sure but more revenue as well and more passenger miles. Sander's book talks about a 4:15 runtime on this route back after some small line upgrades were made. Greyhound, offers 3:10 to 3:45 (with one stop) run times to downtown Chicago.
I have a hard time believing that 4:00 even couldn't happen once the Chicago upgrades are done and with some minimal upgrades elsewhere. That would give you a 6:30 departure from Indianapolis for a 9:30 arrival into Chicago, perfect for business. Add a suburban Indianapolis stop, make the train 7 coaches and a cafe and watch the ridership triple at little additional operating cost. The operating loss would drop to less than the financial cost to governments of automobile accidents, which is where the rides would come from mostly.
The numbers you presented from the PRIIA study, which are now more than four years old, show an average loss per passenger mile of 29.3 cents for a daily Cardinal/Hoosier State. This compares to a FY12 average loss of 9.3 cents per passenger mile for the State Supported and Other Short Distance Corridor Trains.
In FY12 four of the State Supported and Other Short Distance Corridor Trains carried fewer than 100,000 passengers. They were the Heartland Flyer, Vermonter, Ethan Allen Express, and the Hoosier State. All four trains should be dropped; buses would be a better alternative. In fact, as noted, the average Hoosier State passenger load could be fitted quite nicely on a couple of buses.
The FY12 numbers, which are before any depreciation and interest, are audited. The numbers presented in the PRIIA studies, which were generated by Amtrak and, as far as I can tell, were not independently audited, are untested forecasts. If the PRIIA studies were as compelling as some readers believe, how come the recommendations have not been implemented. Is it because they are not very compelling?
In 2012 the Cardinal had an operating loss of 36.1 cents per passenger mile whilst the Hoosier State lost 67.5 cents per passenger mile in 2012. These numbers are before depreciation and interest. The Cardinal was the second worst financial performer amongst the long distance trains, and the Hoosier State was the worst of the worst in its class.
To catch a 6:30 a.m. train, unless one lives close to the station, means getting up between 4:30 a.m. and 5:00 a.m. Moreover, coming back on the current train schedule means an 11:50 p.m. arrival in Indianapolis. I spent 40 years with Fortune 250 corporations. I don't know many serious business people who would buy into this arrangement.
If the Hoosier State was discontinued, those with a strong desire to take the train could still ride the Cardinal.
At the risk of sounding off topic, the bus may be cheaper and faster, but not particularly desirable. Enduring 3 or so hours of screaming kids, some moron playing the same rap garbage, or some obnoxious boor running his mouth, I will gladly spend 5 hours on a train. At least you can go into another car to get away from that. Forgive me if I sound snobbish, but I have endured 8 hours on a bus with just some of the aforementioned characters.
In FY12 the Hoosier State carried 36,669 passengers. Assuming most of them were round trip riders, the Hoosier State carried approximately 18,000 customers during FY12. The average number of passengers per train was approximately 50.
The average government direct subsidy in FY12 before depreciation, interest, and miscellaneous charges was $74.08 per passenger. Assuming the same ridership in FY14 as in FY12, the subsidy will drop to $73.63. This compares to an average Amtrak system subsidy per passenger in FY12 of $39.67.
Megabus offers seven trips a day from Indianapolis to Chicago. The fares range from $5 to $37 for an October 31st. booking. A reservation made closer to a departure date would attract a higher fare.
Greyhound has seven trips per day from Indianapolis to Chicago and four trips per day, as an example, between Lafayette and Chicago.The advance purchase fare for Indianapolis to Chicago on Greyhound is $14, whereas the advance purchase fare from Lafayette is $20. Good example of the benefits of competition, i.e. serious competition from Indianapolis to Chicago. Not so much from Lafayette to Chicago!
The average time on Megabus from Indianapolis to Chicago is 3 hrs. 15 min. Greyhound is a bit longer because most of its buses stop in Lafayette. The scheduled time for the Hoosier State is 5 hrs, 5 min. The coach fare on the Hoosier State is $24 before the subsidy.
The Hoosier State is an important element in the potential development of improved Indianapolis to Chicago passenger rail service as claimed by some of its supporters? Other than throwing good money after bad, what would it do commercially and technically that the Cardinal, which is another example of throwing good money after bad, could not do?
The link doesn't work for me, it sends me to a log in page for Outlook....
Here is a link for a story on the same subject from an Indy newspaper.
http://www.indystar.com/article/20131015/NEWS/310150046/Amtrak-service-between-Indianapolis-Chicago-continue?odyssey=mod
An "expensive model collector"
Looks like the Hoosier State is saved.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
V.Payne I take it with this Louisville to Indianapolis move then some intermodal traffic will be operating over the Indianapolis to Chicago route of the Hoosier State?
I take it with this Louisville to Indianapolis move then some intermodal traffic will be operating over the Indianapolis to Chicago route of the Hoosier State?
As of right now, no. The plan is send all the intermodal traffic to the Northwest Ohio intermodal center.
Always interesting... the competitive position seems very close to a draw right now on the freight side on the eastern domestic length of hauls. IF the policy was to recover costs from large trucks how many more privately funded upgrades would we be seeing? I take it with this Louisville to Indianapolis move then some intermodal traffic will be operating over the Indianapolis to Chicago route of the Hoosier State?
BTW, interesting developments South of Indianapolis, perhaps one day Amtrak could again try an extension to Louisville, KY with a more competitive timetable.
http://www.anacostia.com/pdfs/LIRC-CSX062013.pdf
schlimmAll too true, but it can be reformed with the right sort of pressure (lobbying). That does not appear to be done very well by the NARP. But newer groups like the Midwest HSR group and the TX group may be on the right track [sorry!].
That's right where you stick it back to Mr. Mica. "Yes. We suck. But we are a railroad not a restaurant. We would like to hire some real restaurant professionals, but...."
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Sam1 oltmannd CMStPnP From what I understand Beech Grove has a negative reputation for slop work among private car owners (most of whom won't let Amtrak Car Repair near their cars) Conrail had Beech Grove build their track geometry car back in the mid 1980s. They did a good job of it - but that was a while ago. CMStPnP I still think Amtrak should close it's 12 food Commissaries and go with LSG Sky Chiefs for food service. Stop the charade with the Chef in the lower level of the Diner and train the servers how to heat the LSG Sky Chiefs meals (which will be far better than the crap they serve now). How about going one step further and contract out the whole business of food service, including the selling and serving. Here's the heart of the RFP: "How much do I have to pay you to provide food service on my trains. You figure out what to sell, how to price it, how to source it, logistics, etc. You keep the revenue." If food service is not one of those things you excel at - it's that's been pretty well paraded around in public lately - then why not hire someone who is? A competitive business would identify first its core competencies. It would outsource its non-core activities to competitive bidders. Food service is not one of Amtrak's core competencies. Soliciting bids from just one potential service provider is not likely to result in the best outcome. Bids should be solicited from a variety of potential vendors. Unfortunately, Amtrak is not a competitive business. It is a government monopoly with little incentive to do things better, faster, cheaper, with the operative word being better.
oltmannd CMStPnP From what I understand Beech Grove has a negative reputation for slop work among private car owners (most of whom won't let Amtrak Car Repair near their cars) Conrail had Beech Grove build their track geometry car back in the mid 1980s. They did a good job of it - but that was a while ago. CMStPnP I still think Amtrak should close it's 12 food Commissaries and go with LSG Sky Chiefs for food service. Stop the charade with the Chef in the lower level of the Diner and train the servers how to heat the LSG Sky Chiefs meals (which will be far better than the crap they serve now). How about going one step further and contract out the whole business of food service, including the selling and serving. Here's the heart of the RFP: "How much do I have to pay you to provide food service on my trains. You figure out what to sell, how to price it, how to source it, logistics, etc. You keep the revenue." If food service is not one of those things you excel at - it's that's been pretty well paraded around in public lately - then why not hire someone who is?
CMStPnP From what I understand Beech Grove has a negative reputation for slop work among private car owners (most of whom won't let Amtrak Car Repair near their cars)
Conrail had Beech Grove build their track geometry car back in the mid 1980s. They did a good job of it - but that was a while ago.
CMStPnP I still think Amtrak should close it's 12 food Commissaries and go with LSG Sky Chiefs for food service. Stop the charade with the Chef in the lower level of the Diner and train the servers how to heat the LSG Sky Chiefs meals (which will be far better than the crap they serve now).
How about going one step further and contract out the whole business of food service, including the selling and serving. Here's the heart of the RFP: "How much do I have to pay you to provide food service on my trains. You figure out what to sell, how to price it, how to source it, logistics, etc. You keep the revenue." If food service is not one of those things you excel at - it's that's been pretty well paraded around in public lately - then why not hire someone who is?
A competitive business would identify first its core competencies. It would outsource its non-core activities to competitive bidders. Food service is not one of Amtrak's core competencies.
Soliciting bids from just one potential service provider is not likely to result in the best outcome. Bids should be solicited from a variety of potential vendors.
Unfortunately, Amtrak is not a competitive business. It is a government monopoly with little incentive to do things better, faster, cheaper, with the operative word being better.
All too true, but it can be reformed with the right sort of pressure (lobbying). That does not appear to be done very well by the NARP. But newer groups like the Midwest HSR group and the TX group may be on the right track [sorry!].
Outsourcing of various functions, such as shop work, food service, etc. may be restricted by union contracts. The IAM blew the whistle on BN some years ago for attempting such a practice in violation of union contracts with the "power-by-the-hour" leasing and maintenance contracts of the Oakway SD60's.
oltmanndHow about going one step further and contract out the whole business of food service, including the selling and serving. Here's the heart of the RFP: "How much do I have to pay you to provide food service on my trains. You figure out what to sell, how to price it, how to source it, logistics, etc. You keep the revenue." If food service is not one of those things you excel at - it's that's been pretty well paraded around in public lately - then why not hire someone who is?
I think you could get LSG Sky Chefs to bid on supplying the meals but if they staffed the cars it would be a huge issue with Amtraks unions as they would opt to staff the dining car with someone at one half or one third the pay rate more than likely. Private companies match the skill with the pay. Amtrak does not. Exhibit A: How many Amtrak Car Attendants or Dining Car servers do you see that are fit and trim.
Further I don't think LSG would want to step into that fracas. So I think you could get them to supply the meals, I doubt they would be interested in staffing the dining cars. It would be a good idea but I don't think the CEO of LSG would go for it.
oltmannd CMStPnPNot really because Amtrak can use the freight carriers to move the cars. Ooh... Not a great idea on several levels. ...and not cheap, either. Passenger cars take special handling in freight service - and possibly some abuse. It's not single line service from Amtrak - Chicago to Beech Grove, plus there'd be some handling on both ends of the trip. The cars would also have to be made secure against unwanted "passengers" as well as watched 24/7 to stop vandalism. The ten bucks a train mile (or so) that Amtrak pays for running their train on someone else's track is a pretty good deal (it's the hidden subsidy the frt RRs afford Amtrak)
CMStPnPNot really because Amtrak can use the freight carriers to move the cars.
Ooh... Not a great idea on several levels. ...and not cheap, either. Passenger cars take special handling in freight service - and possibly some abuse. It's not single line service from Amtrak - Chicago to Beech Grove, plus there'd be some handling on both ends of the trip. The cars would also have to be made secure against unwanted "passengers" as well as watched 24/7 to stop vandalism.
The ten bucks a train mile (or so) that Amtrak pays for running their train on someone else's track is a pretty good deal (it's the hidden subsidy the frt RRs afford Amtrak)
OK, well the other alternative is to move the shop or contract out the work that Beech Grove does to others. BNSF still has the Topeka Shops Passenger Car operation to maintain their business train. They also have Northern Rail Car in Milwaukee still I believe. From what I understand Beech Grove has a negative reputation for slop work among private car owners (most of whom won't let Amtrak Car Repair near their cars). Amtrak might be better off without the shop and just contract repairs across the country.
Speaking of which. I still think Amtrak should close it's 12 food Commissaries and go with LSG Sky Chiefs for food service. Stop the charade with the Chef in the lower level of the Diner and train the servers how to heat the LSG Sky Chiefs meals (which will be far better than the crap they serve now). Heck LSG Sky Chiefs even advertises that they service long distance passenger trains on their U.S. website. I would even add experimenting with POS terminals at each table so that passengers can enter and pay for their order without having to involve the service challenged servers. Minimize the job of the server to heat the meals and deliver them only. They screw up the Dining Car paperwork on most Amtrak LD rides I have been on.
schlimm CMSTPNP: Do you know if any of the old Milwaukee Road line to Terre Haute exists today?
CMSTPNP: Do you know if any of the old Milwaukee Road line to Terre Haute exists today?
I am not sure. I think the Indiana Railroad owns most of it now based on this item:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiana_Rail_Road
MidlandMike It was pointed out in the new issue of Trains (October) p.25, Amtrak uses the Hoosier State to ferry equipment to and from Beech Grove shops near Indy. It seems INDOT should have some leverage to get ATK to carry some more of the costs.
It was pointed out in the new issue of Trains (October) p.25, Amtrak uses the Hoosier State to ferry equipment to and from Beech Grove shops near Indy. It seems INDOT should have some leverage to get ATK to carry some more of the costs.
Not really because Amtrak can use the freight carriers to move the cars. It's not saving Amtrak any real money to tack them onto a money losing Passenger Train vs having them in a freight train.
V.Payne I am curious to hear what the intermodal run times are on this route, maybe 7 hours or so?
I am curious to hear what the intermodal run times are on this route, maybe 7 hours or so?
There are no intermodal trains that run on this route.
I believe the real question is still how much improvement could be made to the CSX/CN line (outside of the Chicago CREATE upgrades) for some minimal amount. $40 million say on this route could probably produce dramatic improvements in run time from what I understand of it, which isn't much as I am not local.
I am curious to hear what the intermodal run times are on this route, maybe 7 hours or so? Since the freight marketplace is not functioning due to the highway freight cross-subsidy, speculation on CSX/CN self funding these improvements is probably not well founded, even though better run times would benefit them financially, just not enough to pay for themselves alone.
The state should be considering how improvements to the infrastructure can benefit both passengers and freight at a lower financial cost compared to roadways. However, they are getting no help on this as even the Federal government's new freight plan requirement under MAP-21 excludes considering freight rail for political reasons, so instead it will focus on highway bottlenecks, and the General fund monies will flow after this "planning".
So here we are pinning for a higher speed corridor line where one could obviously exist based on population and distance, when we cannot even get the political will to address small problems at the State and Federal level. Once again we are looking at loosing what little there is and will blame it on outmoded practice instead of discussing the financial disincentives. But the bus that doesn't even stop at the intermediate cities will replace it right, so nothing to worry about... Well until the existing interstates get too crowded but if you don't make the policy argument now you will loose it then as well as that was "already tried and found not to work".
Sam1: you are correct on the stats side. I must have not made it clear 2012 avg fare per passenger was ~$21.40. For 2013 avg fare was ~~ $24.40. Now the budget fare IND -- Chi is $24.00. Closer Other stations are of course less. It would appear that most passengers are IND -- CHI ? The new fare structure that just showed on the Amtrak reservations site will take some getting used to.
As well the average # of passengers per trip is ~103 up from ~~ 94 per trip.. More to the point overall Amtrak revenue for the July month is dwn per average passenger but up on Hoosier.
Once Englewood, -- 47 st, yard & 51st yards are complete and Grand is hopefully completed then arrivals at CHI can be guaranteede earlier and Cardinal / Hoosier departures from CHI can be 6PM ( 1800 ) or later. Even now many days Hoosier arrives 25 - 28 minutes early and very rarely so does the Cardinal.
blue streak 1 July Amtrak performance report had ridership from 3.8K to 4.1K = +9%. But revenue up 21.5% which indicates more passengers are traveling longer distances on this route in contrast to the overall Amtrak stats.
July Amtrak performance report had ridership from 3.8K to 4.1K = +9%. But revenue up 21.5% which indicates more passengers are traveling longer distances on this route in contrast to the overall Amtrak stats.
The numbers for FY13 through July are not so rosy. Ridership is up a scant .9 per cent, and revenues are up 5.0 per cent. Because of a low statistical base compared to the other trains in this category, any movement in the Hooser State numbers is likely to magnified.
Amtrak's load factors tend to be higher during the summer months. The average system load factor was 58.2 per cent for July 2013, but only 52.2 per cent for the year to date. This trend probably will be reflected in the Hooser State numbers for the year. This is one of the reasons that I only pay attention to twelve month numbers and preferably over a period of three to five years. Numbers can jump in one month only to decline equally or more so in the next month.
Thanks, Johnny. I guess there are many former lines like that. Too bad we didn't have a national or state policy of acquiring the best and railbanking them for the future. i know some lines were, but there are many others that could be useful as dedicated passenger routes in days to come that are now plowed under.
Schlimm, there is no longer a through route between Indianapolis and Chicago that goes through Lebanon. Both the PRR and Big Four went through there, but both routes have been broken. It might be possible to use the former PRR through Lebanon to Frankfort, and then use the former Lake Erie and Western to Lafayette and connect with the current Lafayette-Chicago line. However, I doubt that this would be any better than the current PRR-P&E-Monon route (the P&E has been abandoned east of Clermont, and the trains run over the former PRR from Indianapolis to Clermont).
Johnny
No i don't want that type of discussion, either. Tell me, there seems to be a straight rail line that parallels I- 65 and goes through Lebanon. Do you know what it is?
schlimm If the route of the Hoosier State is as you say, 210 miles, with numerous slow stretches and delays, that is a good deal longer than by Interstate = 185 miles. Perhaps a different route is needed if Amtrak is serious about passenger service. Otherwise cut the losses and drop it and the Cardinal.
If the route of the Hoosier State is as you say, 210 miles, with numerous slow stretches and delays, that is a good deal longer than by Interstate = 185 miles. Perhaps a different route is needed if Amtrak is serious about passenger service. Otherwise cut the losses and drop it and the Cardinal.
Of course it is longer than the interstate. Look at a map. The line goes west out of Indy to Crawfordsville, then north to Lafayette, while I65 goes in a straight line between Indy and Lafayette.
Please tell us this different rfdail route that exists between Indy and Chicago. This is starting to get like on of Trains famous "ya but" threads....
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