schlimmAnd precisely what are the accomplishments of the NARP in the past 10 years? 20 years? 30 years other than raise money to perpetuate itself?
Please understand, Schlimm. I don't belong to NARP. In am in no position to evaluate their positions. I know full well that you and some others disagree with NARP and I do not criticize that. What I am saying, and all that I am saying, is that NARP has been around a long time, as developed its positions and is not going to go away as long as Amtrak continues to exist.
On a more personal level, I have said before that I think a political argument can be made for long distance trains and I think the political argument is what keeps them running. I also agree with you when you emphasize the importance of inter city trains. In fact they have been shown to require less subsidy than long distance trains. They are considered successful in those states that run them but so far not all state governments are persuaded to run them.
John
And in fact if you look at the study for adding a second daily train on the Empire Builder route between MSP and CHI, and the expansion of Hiawatha Service from 7 daily trains to 10, you will find that both are advancing because of the WI governor's and his WisDOT staff's support. He is not in fact opposed to LD service and had always from his time as Milwaukee County executive, been a supporter of expanding Corridor service. He even supported HSR over the existing proven CHI-MIL corridor.
And this leads directly to probably the BIGGEST problem we have in arguing for or against whether to subsidize Passenger Rail which some here understand, however some refuse to get...
Passenger Rail is not a "Democrat Only" issue. Many Republicans across the country actively support Amtrak and a host of other Rail Authorities. The issue is that these folks are painted as anti-rail zealots when they object to poor performing, but Politically connected proposals? Kasich may be truly anti-rail however, Democrats who rallied for the 3C Train pose a greater threat by wasting hundreds of millions of dollars and public support for this "clinker."
http://www.politifact.com/ohio/statements/2011/jan/07/brent-larkin/columnist-brent-larkins-claim-about-1935-steam-tra/
When service makes sense, sensible people will support it. (Note: John Mica = NOT SENSIBLE) But when either side treats Amtrak or HSR as a way to buy votes, or punish Governors who hurt their feelings, it hurts the future of Rail Travel. As further proof of Wisconsin being pro-rail, corridor improvements, service expansion and station upgrades are all proceeding despite federal roadblocks.
Its the difference between Smart-Rail and Pork-Rail... Smart-Rail is something Republicans can get behind.
The HUGELY anti-rail state of Wisconsin (sarcasm intended) already has connecting Amtrak service to the airport in Milwaukee. 14 Amtrak trains stop at Mitchell International Airport every weekday and provide a connection for both Milwaukee and Chicago residents.
I don't know about the Sunset Limited's prices you mention but if they are anything like the Silver Star or Silver Meteor's prices they hardly stay the same from day to day. I'm beginning to think the prices are cyclical and Amtrak is trying to use the same pricing scheme as the Airlines. On most Tuesdays and Wednesdays I can travel from Jax., Fla to Orlando for $40.00 coach.....if you travel closer to the weekend it goes up to as high as $65.00 one way, of course, Amtrak will reduce the price if you are a senior(62) $7-10.00. When you factor in the number of tourist dollars spent in the state and the number of lives that are saved on our highways, it ends up a win win. I do agree with you if you are going to have cross country trains you might as well run them fully loaded(train set). I don't see why Amtrak can't run some of their trains like the riverboat companies did up the Mississippi back in the 1800s(make it interesting).....Amtrak could put a game car full of high class card gamblers on the rear of their cross country trains, whoever wins the purse, a portion would go to Amtrak to help defray the cost of running the train. Also, I would love to see some of those non-producing trains removed and used to fill the gap that exist from New Orleans to Jacksonville. A train from the West Coast to the East Coast (without having to make connections in Chicago or Washington DC) would certainly be nice. It's hard to make reservations in the summer when you have to make connections using a sleeper in your plans. I remember going to New Orleans from Jax., fla with my dad on the Seaboad Airline RR(The Gulf Wind). The train connected up with another train in Flomaton, Ala using L&N engines. I didn't know where that other train was coming from, but It was one of the longest passenger trains I've ever seen when we got to New Orleans.
donjax I'm beginning to think the prices are cyclical and Amtrak is trying to use the same pricing scheme as the Airlines.
Amtrak does use the same "bucket pricing" system as the airlines. The fare is based on the number of seats available and the fewer the seats there are the higher the fare. If you buy your weekend tickets earlier you will get lower fares.
Good luck on getting service restored between Jacksonville and New Orleans. After hurricane Katrina Congress declined to restore the service. Fred Frailey has a recent column about it. Fortunately hurricane Sancy did not wipe out service between Boston and Washington. Making policy by hurricane is certainly a novel approach.
donjax I remember going to New Orleans from Jax., fla with my dad on the Seaboad Airline RR(The Gulf Wind). The train connected up with another train in Flomaton, Ala using L&N engines. I didn't know where that other train was coming from, but It was one of the longest passenger trains I've ever seen when we got to New Orleans.
I remember going to New Orleans from Jax., fla with my dad on the Seaboad Airline RR(The Gulf Wind). The train connected up with another train in Flomaton, Ala using L&N engines. I didn't know where that other train was coming from, but It was one of the longest passenger trains I've ever seen when we got to New Orleans.
The Gulf Wind had always been consolidated with another train west of Flomaton; eastbound it was always the Piedmont Limited and westbound it did vary between the Piedmont Limited and the Pan American, though it usually was the latter until in the late fifties-1960 when the two were consolidated as one train south/west of Montgomery. At the same time those two were consolidated, the Crescent, which had run as a separate train from New Orleans to Montgomery, was consolidated with the Pan American; it still ran as a separate train from Montgomery to New Orleans.
Johnny
But Sam1 and the rest of the economics crowd are forgetting that many, I think most, Americans are willing to pay the two or three bucks a year to support long distance trains even thought they do not plan on using them. They want them there as a backup, plain and simple. paying And they want them for elderly aunt May or wounded veteran Cal who can visit once a year because she or he will take the train but not fly or bus.
It's like a long retail street with upscale cinemas, restaurants, clothing stores, hotels, hobby shops, anitques, ar galleries, and maybe even a concert hall and opera house. Better off with subidizing the streetcar than the bus, even though considering total ongoing costs (including interest on loans) the bus is the obvioius transportation. The streetcar is fun and thus will draw customers to the tax-paying businesses that support the service.
daveklepperThe streetcar is fun and thus will draw customers to the tax-paying businesses that support the service.
Actually, Dave, maybe the times really a a changin'. My morning paper reports here in New Jersey and in several other states the number of people driving cars is declining.
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2013/08/new_jersey_driving_less.html
John WR daveklepperThe streetcar is fun and thus will draw customers to the tax-paying businesses that support the service. Actually, Dave, maybe the times really a a changin'. My morning paper reports here in New Jersey and in several other states the number of people driving cars is declining. http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2013/08/new_jersey_driving_less.html John
And young people are putting off getting driver's licenses. For one thing, they'd rather use their travel time productively, which you really can't while driving a car (notwithstanding all the people I see shaving, brushing hair, reading a book and of course yakking on the cell phone or texting while driving).
Driving less is a trend that's been gathering momentum for some time now.
Personally, even though I'm not in the millennium bracket, I drive less. I make my trips count, combine destinations and consider if I really have to go. The reason: Road congestion. It's just not that fun dodging all the others out there.
CJtrainguy And young people are putting off getting driver's licenses. For one thing, they'd rather use their travel time productively, which you really can't while driving a car Driving less is a trend that's been gathering momentum for some time now.
And young people are putting off getting driver's licenses. For one thing, they'd rather use their travel time productively, which you really can't while driving a car
Driving less yes. But less driving licenses no because people want to be able to rent a car and more importantly in my state license is required to vote .
References for the delaying of millennials in getting driver's licenses:
http://www.calpirg.org/media/cap/younger-generation-exits-passion-driving
http://www.freep.com/article/20120110/BUSINESS03/201100403/Chevy-aims-for-millennial-market-with-two-concepts?odyssey=nav%7Chead
http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/millennials-not-buying-cars-or-even-getting-drivers-licenses/
The auto makers have made note of the different behavior vs cars in millennials and are trying to find effective ways to appeal to them.
Note that I never said that millennials don't ever get a driver's license. They are just more likely to put it off for a while. As far as voting, a state issued ID would take care of that, without having the possible expense and time involved in getting driver's ed.
CJtrainguyI drive less. I make my trips count, combine destinations and consider if I really have to go. The reason: Road congestion. It's just not that fun dodging all the others out there.
CJ,
I have a brother almost my age. Up to about 5 years ago I don't think he was ever on a bus in his life. I, on the other hand, have never liked driving and always used buses and trains. On this issue we are as unlike as anyone could possibly be. Then I learned one day he drives to a parking lot and takes the bus to work. I was amazed. The reason is exactly the one you give. The roads are full to the point where many people now seek alternatives.
CJtrainguy Note that I never said that millennials don't ever get a driver's license. They are just more likely to put it off for a while. As far as voting, a state issued ID would take care of that, without having the possible expense and time involved in getting driver's ed.
Blue streak 1: Thanks, I learned something new today. I obviously don't live in the state of Georgia.
CJtrainguy Blue streak 1: Thanks, I learned something new today. I obviously don't live in the state of Georgia.
An additional point about birth records. Even in the 1940's, 50's and later hospital births were expensive. Often poor people could not afford them so children were born at home, often with a midwife in attendance or perhaps a grandmother or sister. To have a birth certificate the attendant or a parent would have to go to the registrar and report the birth. If parents did not understand this the birth would never be registered and there would not be registered.
daveklepper The Wisconsin Governor is supportive of passenger rail, as long as the Wisconsin BUSINESS COMMUNITY is thoroughly supportive, of which they are in respect to Milwaukee - Chicago via Hiawatha Service. Of course a good business case could be made for Milwaukee - Madison, without any reference to the Twin Cities or high-speed rail. But no one has really tried to do so.
The Wisconsin Governor is supportive of passenger rail, as long as the Wisconsin BUSINESS COMMUNITY is thoroughly supportive, of which they are in respect to Milwaukee - Chicago via Hiawatha Service. Of course a good business case could be made for Milwaukee - Madison, without any reference to the Twin Cities or high-speed rail. But no one has really tried to do so.
Agree with Schlimm your incorrect with your assumption here. Milwaukee Business Community of which my now deceased Father was a part was in favor or CHI-MSP trains and in fact liked the overnight Amtrak NorthStar that used to provide sleeper service from MKE to MSP and went onwards to Duluth after that. Board the train in MKE, go to sleep and wake up in MSP, it was a good concept but WI never paid for it and it was discontinued.
Madison is not a well liked city or destination among the Milwaukee Business Community, can tell you that for a fact and yes it is based on political reasons mostly. However, you can sell a MKE to Madison train to them based on the college student usage if you can get one there for a reasonable price. $800 million grant with stipulations that if Wisconsin does not reach 110 mph or does not cover all go forward costs on it's own, it pays back the money with interest.............is not a reasonable proposal. Throw in the political Talgo and shop contract and it was even more of a loser proposal. Wisconsin & Southern was telling everyone at the time it could do approx the same for a lot cheaper than $800 million and the State is already paying for the Wisconsin & Southern in large part.
We'll see what happens if and when Wisconsin adds a second CHI to MSP frequency and if they pick a good schedule for the service.
swendt And in fact if you look at the study for adding a second daily train on the Empire Builder route between MSP and CHI, and the expansion of Hiawatha Service from 7 daily trains to 10, you will find that both are advancing because of the WI governor's and his WisDOT staff's support. He is not in fact opposed to LD service and had always from his time as Milwaukee County executive, been a supporter of expanding Corridor service. He even supported HSR over the existing proven CHI-MIL corridor. And this leads directly to probably the BIGGEST problem we have in arguing for or against whether to subsidize Passenger Rail which some here understand, however some refuse to get... Passenger Rail is not a "Democrat Only" issue. Many Republicans across the country actively support Amtrak and a host of other Rail Authorities. The issue is that these folks are painted as anti-rail zealots when they object to poor performing, but Politically connected proposals? Kasich may be truly anti-rail however, Democrats who rallied for the 3C Train pose a greater threat by wasting hundreds of millions of dollars and public support for this "clinker." http://www.politifact.com/ohio/statements/2011/jan/07/brent-larkin/columnist-brent-larkins-claim-about-1935-steam-tra/ When service makes sense, sensible people will support it. (Note: John Mica = NOT SENSIBLE) But when either side treats Amtrak or HSR as a way to buy votes, or punish Governors who hurt their feelings, it hurts the future of Rail Travel. As further proof of Wisconsin being pro-rail, corridor improvements, service expansion and station upgrades are all proceeding despite federal roadblocks. Its the difference between Smart-Rail and Pork-Rail... Smart-Rail is something Republicans can get behind.
Right on the money and excellent post.
I might also add the former Milwaukee Road Milwaukee Section of the Southwest Limited via Sturtevant to Kansas City was another "favorite" train among the Milwaukee Business Community in the 1930's and 1940's because again it was largely run overnight to KC from MKE and had high standards. Believe it or not it is still remembered among the older generation post 2000.
I don't see where you disagree withi me, because it is the college student and the politician and staff commuters that would be the logical passengers for a businesslike Madison-Milwaukee service; NOT to get people as fast as possibly from Madison to Chicago. Don't you agree that any state in the USA would benefit from fast, reliable, and convenient public transportation between the State Capitol and the main commercial city? Perhaps the business community would prefer an overnight schedule to the Twins than any high speed schedual? And that takes operating subsidy but not much in the way of capital expenditures because it might even use equipment laid up overnight in Chi.
daveklepper I don't see where you disagree withi me, because it is the college student and the politician and staff commuters that would be the logical passengers for a businesslike Madison-Milwaukee service; NOT to get people as fast as possibly from Madison to Chicago. Don't you agree that any state in the USA would benefit from fast, reliable, and convenient public transportation between the State Capitol and the main commercial city? Perhaps the business community would prefer an overnight schedule to the Twins than any high speed schedual? And that takes operating subsidy but not much in the way of capital expenditures because it might even use equipment laid up overnight in Chi.
I think the point of contention is priorities and cost. Seems to me that Milwaukee to Chicago is a much higher priority than Milwaukee to Madison and a much shorter corridor that would cost far less to improve first. Lets face it, they have pending projects to improve Milwaukee's Amtrak station by raising the platforms to rid the trains of step stools (a la Northeast Corridor). They also will repeat that at stations along the line Milwaukee to Chicago. Chicago to Milwaukee corridor is at the high speed threshold already and needs new equipment vs the aging equipment they have. So Chicago to Milwaukee still has pending financial projects. Right now, according to the Heritage group the Chicago to Milwaukee Corridor only falls short of paying it's full costs by a mere 2%.
I think you can get the Business Community to vote for Milwaukee to Madison extension if you do it incrementally and initially bring it up to 79 mph standards with one or two frequencies. Float that proposal and it's far lower cost and see who jumps on board. Racing right into a 110-150 mph system without any kind of proof of concept .......is a sure loser. Lets face it, Milwaukee is predominately German American and very fiscally conservative when it comes to blowing tax money. How did they build the German rail system............did they start right away at high speed? No they did not. They inched it up incrementally. Wisconsin should do the same, IMHO and use the slow incremental improvements and partnerships on the Chicago to Milwaukee run as a template.
BTW, I just rode Chicago-Milwaukee on Amtrak this past weekend it is now a smooth 79 mph ride on welded rail, end to end. So the 7-8 million they just spent helped. Got off at the Mitchell field airport stop and the shuttle bus to the Airport was rolling before the train resumed it's trip to Milwaukee and I was at the airport terminal within 5 min of disembarkation from the train. Very impressive and efficient.
However, I would be even more impressed if they handled checked baggage at the airport station vs. just passengers.
I agree completely with the incremental approach to Milwaukee - Madison, exactly what I was thinking. But I would opt for four or five each way, using cost-efficient equipment, possibly the Stadler diesel-electric so-called light rial cars that do meet FRA standards and are in use in Ottawa, outside of Portland, OR. and Dallas - Fort Worth. They can be modified to meet the high platforms of the Milwaukee Station and probably should have high platforms along the whole line, say just 150 feet long at first with expansion possible. Two men should be the maximum size crew, one-man if possible, with ticket machines, validation, proof of payment inspection, and everything that speeds loading and unloading at the intermeidate stops that would be important sources of revenue.
daveklepper I agree completely with the incremental approach to Milwaukee - Madison, exactly what I was thinking. But I would opt for four or five each way, using cost-efficient equipment, possibly the Stadler diesel-electric so-called light rial cars that do meet FRA standards and are in use in Ottawa, outside of Portland, OR. and Dallas - Fort Worth. They can be modified to meet the high platforms of the Milwaukee Station and probably should have high platforms along the whole line, say just 150 feet long at first with expansion possible. Two men should be the maximum size crew, one-man if possible, with ticket machines, validation, proof of payment inspection, and everything that speeds loading and unloading at the intermeidate stops that would be important sources of revenue.
Stadler rail cars are used by Capital Metro on its Red Line, which runs from Leander to Austin. They are also used by the Denton County Transportation Authority on its Trinity Mills to Denton line.
The Trinity Railway Express, which runs from Dallas to Fort Worth, uses EMD F59PH and EMD F59PHI locomotives and Bombardier Bi-level coaches.
No way would Stadler Rail Cars ever have a chance on the Milwaukee to Madison route. For one thing the Watertown to Milwaukee portion of the route is a Class 1 mainline with 79 mph Empire Builder and several fast freights by Canadian Pacific. Also much slower CP freights
CP would never agree to anything less than Budd SPV cars on the route. Been down that path before with attempted revival of the Cannonball Commuter Service between Milwaukee and Watertown. Milwaukee Road at the time was pretty insistent on using proven heavy rail designs for safety purposes.
Stadler rail cars work on the Denton service in Texas because I think that line might see one freight train a day each way at the most. So easy to schedule around the commute service. I am not familar enough with the Austin service to comment.
The current Amtrak Chicago-Milwaukee Service is a push-pull arrangement 5 bombardier single level cars and one amfleet. Two Conductors (1 primary and 1 assistant)...........looks efficient to me as far as staff.
BTW, I grew up next to the Milwaukee - Watertown portion of the Milwaukee Road Twin Cities mainline. Milwaukee Road used to run directionally on the tracks the right main as you faced South or East was used for Southbound or Eastbound traffic, the left main as you faced East or South was used for Westbound or Northbound traffic. After the Soo line takeover they resignalled the mainlines. The two mainlines now can have bi-directional traffic Milwaukee to Duplainville, WI on the Milwaukee to Watertown part of Milwaukee - Madison route...........I have observed.
An example observed a Westbound Freight Train through Brookfield, WI on the Westbound main and the Westbound Amtrak Empire Builder passing it on the Eastbound main. Looked impressive and efficient and the former Milwaukee Road would never dispatch trains like that on this line unless it was an emergency. So this is a train operational improvement with the Soo Line.
So try and thread a Stadler Rail Car through that kind of changing directional traffic and you see the safety issue.
To allow operation of the Stadler cars on the Austin and Western, which hosts Capital Metro's Red Line, the A&W was required to quarantine all freight movements during the day. This means that the freight trains have to move at night. Furthermore, it may mean that the operator, Herzog, has to pay a night shift operating differential.
According to the latest statistics published by the City of Austin, which owns Capital Metro, which owns the A&W, an average of 2,800 passengers per day rode the Red Line in 2012. This is up from an average of 800 passengers per day during the first year of operation.
The capital cost to upgrade the A&W for passenger service was $105 million. The annual operating budget is roughly $14.3 million. Assuming that most of the passenger trips are made by persons traveling round-trip, and the capital costs are amortized over 30 years at Austin's average long term borrowing rate for municipal bonds, the average subsidy for a Red Line passenger in 2012 was $26.11 per trip. This compares to a comparable figure of $5.63 for the TRE.
Sam, the Austin commuter rail does not link the Capitol of Texas with the most important Texas commercial city. Madison - Milwaukee is more comparable with Trinity Express on the one hand and NYCity-Albany on the other. I understood that now Stadler is producing diesel mu's that still look like large light rail cars but are completely FRA compatible, and be 160kph speeders, if you wish. But I agree thoroughly rebuilt RDC's would be even better, and the railcar firm in Mocton, Canada can do an excellent job. I agree a typcical light rail schedule could not mesh with current freight activities, but not much in the way of capital expenditures would make possible five trips each way each weekday. (8. 11, 15, 17, 21). I think the benefits of such a service would be important for Wisconsin in general. If it's successful, then and only then would studies be made to add legs from Milwaukee to De Peer, and to Kenosha. The latter would, of course, connect with METRA, but would be planned mainly for trips from Racine and Kenosha to Milwaukee. I write study, I m less sure of the success of those two additions for the near future.
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