FRA has an update newsleter about NEC upgrades but did not find anything of substancial difference
http://www.necfuture.com/pdfs/newsletter_spring_2013.pdf
blue streak 16. PVD -- Hartford HSR line
As a guy who grew up in Providence I'm waiting for service to Hartford to be restored. But I feel like Charlie Brown waiting for the Great Pumpkin.
It appears that most of you posters think that the route thru central Conn. is difficult & expensive. IMHO you are right. Maybe get the route laid out and buy ROW but build the routes that will get more passenger miles per dollar first. Many years in the fuure getting more than the 9% thru NYP passengers may be possible. That number must rise a lot before a bypass of NYP is contemplated. Granted if a route first goes to NYP and ridership Bos - PVD - Hartford - NYP can justify the quicker route then the middle Conn route can move up in priority but bypassing NYP is a real question..
What are possible priorities BOS -- WASH that were not discussed. I would pick the most RPM's gained per dollar.spent.
1. CAT & track upgrade Newark - Trenton
2. Portal bridge. -- a complete failure of present one would be a disaster.
3 Gateway tunnels
4. 4 tracking and replacement of 3 bridges PHL -- WASH. + straighten ROW & new CAT
5. new Baltimore tunnels ( 4 tracks ).
6. PVD -- Hartford HSR line
6a. Upgrade MNRR shoreline
7. PHL -- Harrisburg 125 MPH upgrades
8. Trenton - PHL HSR upgrade.
9. Dedicated new HSR NYP--WASH
10. Hartford -- ? HSR NYP bypass.9. Dedicated new HSR NYP - WASH.
11. Long island sound tunnel(s)
Lets see -- 10 factorial gives a very large variations of these and I may have forgoten some.
Two things about the White Train....mainly that it ran east of Hartford where the grades and curves were not as bad as those west of Hartford.. Secondly, West of Hartford it ran down to New Haven then along the shore west to NYC. And again the Willamantic route was not east/west, but northeast-southwest. They also, despite speed limits and supposed physical limits, pushed those limits more than is allowed today. Basically, I guess what I am saying is that the terrain is more rolling east of the CT River than west of it, the valleys are wider, and the streams less winding.....but west of the River, sharp hills and tight and twisting valleys
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henry6All I can say is to look at a topo map and see how and where the railroads were built.
River grades were desirable because HP was very, very expensive. The trade-off was lots of curves - but if you didn't have much HP/ton, you couldn't go fast, anyway.
In fact, the original Phila and Reading ROW is downgrade all the way from Reading to Phila, just so that a locomotive that could handle the empties back to Reading could handle the loads to Phila.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
White train - already discussed
henry6Yes, HSR can go straight line up and over using momentum to keep up the speed,
Nope, using HP to keep up the speed.
But, you are right about lots of tunnels and bridges. That's what it takes to do it.
Interstate 84 is bogged down with 40, 45 and 50 mph limits for the very reason I have mentioned for railroads: twisting and turning through narrow valleys and along winding streambeds. East of Hartford is not as bad as west, but still not good straight line running. Yes, HSR can go straight line up and over using momentum to keep up the speed, but that still does not make the complete economic argument for it nor probably accomplish all it is supposed to. It will still require lots more trestles, viaducts, bridges, and tunnels to keep it true than a flat map suggests.
MidlandMike Freight routes built thru Connecticut in steam engine days have little bearing on modern HSR. An electric high speed route could probably follow Interstate 84 with some modification. I think ATK and FRA know what they are proposing.
Freight routes built thru Connecticut in steam engine days have little bearing on modern HSR. An electric high speed route could probably follow Interstate 84 with some modification. I think ATK and FRA know what they are proposing.
I believe you are barking up the right tree. Don't know if we need or want a HSR line parallel to an interstate, but, in general, hills and valleys are OK, curves are not, so that pretty much leaves out all the old RR ROW where grades were bad, and curves were okay.
What Amtrak proposes is a line from Boston that would pass through Woonsocket, RI and then go to Connecticut. It might parallel the P&W branch to Slatersville but would not intersect the P&W beyond that.
Here is a map of the P&W which ill allow you to visualize Amtrak's vision of this route. However, it does not show hills and valleys.
All I can say is to look at a topo map and see how and where the railroads were built. Narrow valleys, many curves, not high hills but significant enough to go around rather than up and over. No, not like the Rockies or even the Appalachians where you would take 10 or more miles to climb up and over but where you have less than a mile to go up 100 or 200 or even 500 and a thousand feet. Look at the maps and you will see very short straight stretches connecting winding valleys around hills and not long leaps that even the Erie found along the Susquehanna River or long hills like at Gulf Summit or the D&H over Ararat. Remember, when these roads were built there was nothing but man power and mules...locomotives were small and engineering was yet young in relation to railroads. Even the Hoosac Tunnel wasn't dug in 1835 but some 50 odd years later because they didn't have the savvy to do it. A New Haven RR or B&M map or any New England railroad map is heavy on north south lines, main lines, but light on east west lines and even then they wind through valleys and up and down hills and use a lot of NE-SW and SE-NW alignments to reach their goals. But very few grades like Horseshoe, Gulf Summit, Sand Patch, the biggest in NE being the B&A over the Berkshires which aren't that high.
henry6except for the Shore LIne, most all other lines are more either north and south or diagonals across the state via summits and valleys.
Yes, but there were certainly enough ROWs for NY&NE to run the White Train (...'without a stop to Willimantic') on a competitive basis through to Fishkill (near Beacon). This route goes through Danbury and Waterbury, which had or have north-south lines that might be alternatives to Fishkill as a 'back-door' access to the Shore Line.
Nominally the Air Line (in the eastern half of the route) was shorter than the Shore Line (even with all the curves and 'diagonal' general routing), but even with heroic-for-the-time engineering it still had comparatively steep grades and high curvature. Large parts of it are now a rail trail (although there were studies as late as the 1990s to use it as a passenger line, so there was at least some recognition that the very high cost of re-laying rail might be justified for some purposes)
While it might be possible to use tilting trains or similar solution to operate over this routing at a reasonable percentage of the current Shore Line trip time, it would involve significant new investment in frankly specialized equipment. At one time, back in the mists of time, I looked briefly into the possibility of using third-rail 'helper districts' for the third-rail-equipped diesel power on some of the necessary grades if existing 'conventional' equipment were to be used. I do not remember, but someone here (probably Dave Klepper) will know, how much of a restored version of this route would involve the Providence and Worcester. Naturally I would not expect overhead electrification to be cost-effective on a restored inland route, which would severely limit use of such a route as a short-term replacement or alternative to problems with service on the Shore Line.
As a potential note: I remember riding the ex-Roger Williams up to Berlin, CT where there was at the time (1973 or so) an east-west RDC service that crossed the Springfield line. I don't now remember what points this operated between, and Google is less than no help. I strongly suspect this was over the western portion of the old inland route...
I have to agree with Mike about a straight line route across southern New England, Henry. Before being brought out by the New Haven the New York and New England ran its White Train along the route crossing into New York at Poughkeepsie. And before that it was the Boston Hartford and Erie and ran to Brewster where it connected with the Erie across the Hudson River. The BH&E is where Jay Gould really started his railroad career. But what could be done in the 1860's Amtrak certainly could do again today.
Henry, like I said, Amtrak, FRA, and even the RR builders of 100 years ago do not agree with your constraints.
Mountainous is a phrase. But the hills are enough in Southern New England to have been impediments to easy east west routes. Most roads found water courses to follow up and another one to follow down and thus the lack of straight lines. Look at what the B&A had to do to get out of Boston up and over to the CT Valley and what the had to do to get to Albany, NY. Likewise most lines through CT itself wander because of the need to follow water courses rather than fight up and down grades....thus, except for the Shore LIne, most all other lines are more either north and south or diagonals across the state via summits and valleys.
henry6 Even if you look at a flat road map of CT you can tell that the hills or mountains are all north-south, that travelling east or west across the state is a series of ups and downs and twists and turns. The only place you can find a somewhat level east west route is from the LI Sound shore line to maybe 5 miles at most inland. Yeah, there are parallel routes...but they are probably twice as long and slow following small stream courses and climbing up and over what ever is in the way. Then you've got RI and eastern Mass, no pool tables there either. It is easy to take a crayon and ruler and put a line on paper, it is something quite different to lay track on undulating ground (at best) and through narrow valleys.
Even if you look at a flat road map of CT you can tell that the hills or mountains are all north-south, that travelling east or west across the state is a series of ups and downs and twists and turns. The only place you can find a somewhat level east west route is from the LI Sound shore line to maybe 5 miles at most inland. Yeah, there are parallel routes...but they are probably twice as long and slow following small stream courses and climbing up and over what ever is in the way. Then you've got RI and eastern Mass, no pool tables there either. It is easy to take a crayon and ruler and put a line on paper, it is something quite different to lay track on undulating ground (at best) and through narrow valleys.
While the area of the inland route thru CT is hilly, there is nothing considered mountainous. A "bee-line" route was partly built with big cuts and fills a hundred years ago, but I believe was bought out by the NH. Modern day HSR can handle bigger grades. I'm sure Amtrak and FRA had some idea of the terrain they were proposing to cross. The present Shoreline route is a series of rocky headlands, bays and drawbridges, and is itself no pool table glide.
daveklepperJohn WR: NY-Philadelphia: You did not report the NJT-SEPTA conecting service,
What an embarrassing mistake. How could I be so stupid. Anyway, I went back and corrected my post. I can well understand how a musician with an instrument that does not fit under a bus seat would want to keep it with him rather than putting in an under the bus compartment where it might be damaged or, even worse, stolen. I sure wouldn't risk it.
To repeat myself, NJT plus SEPTA fare New York Penn Station to 30th Street Station is $24.50. It is cheaper than Amtrak Regional but not quite half. Buying a ticket a month in advance Amtrak costs $36. Of course if you buy your ticket the day you travel Amtrak can be a lot more.
John WR: NY-Philadelphia: You did not report the NJT-SEPTA conecting service, and I have have told that no-railfans that don't care for buses do use it, friends who are musicians in partiuclar. This despite the need to change at Trenton (same platform) and no quicker running time that Megabus. The fare is 1/2-1/3 Amtrak regional.
The inland alternate to the Shoreline route would go thru Danbury, Waterbury and Hartford. Why is Conn not supportive? The original Amtrak proposal went this route, and then made a bee-line for Boston. That is until Rhode Island caught wind of it, and then Amtrak had to put a dog-leg in the route to serve Providence. I see in the FRA study for Hartford-Boston, there is an alternative thru Providence and another thru Worcester, but I don't remember any direct route.
henry6We can't do HSR because we move at the speed of light...candlelight in a windstorm.
Perhaps. But in southern New England Amtrak's High Speed Rail route is controversial because it would bypass almost every city between Boston and New York. It would require a whole new rail line, and inland route (which would parallel the old New York and New England's route), leave the Shore Line right after Boston and not return to it until the train was south of Stamford station. As a result both Rhode Island and Connecticut are not supportive of it. However, it would be more direct and cut time off the Boston to New York segment of the trip.
What the New Haven accomplished, what transpired into PC and CR and Amtrak are all separate from the competing, duplicating, time wasting, planning and studying and reporting that does not do work but talks and preaches and takes apart others' works. How many pages of repetitive blather is there. There is a summary, and index to the summary, and summary of the index followed by a hypothesis summarized and indexed then editorial commentaries repeated in diagrams and graphs which are explained in more rhetoric duplicating the initial statements and summaries and the conclusion that was stated as the purpose of the exercise and report in the opening paragraph of the first summary. All this is followed by a summary with an appendix with footnotes and five blank pages to add your own notes. Five committees or agencies with 3000 man hours each producing over 1000 pages of claptrap with the same or different or competing conclusions. Then Congress has to take it into a committee to investigate and hear and produce another round of wasted man hours and pages and pages of testimony and conclusions which may or may not be the same as any of the reports and findings of the agencies. A snap shot of the American way of not getting things done. We can't do HSR because we move at the speed of light...candlelight in a windstorm.
henry6Thus another billion or so dollars will go up in rhetoric and nothing really accomplished. Except fodder for FB,
Henry,
Since we were a British colony the Boston -- New York route has been one of the most heavily traveled in the country. At first it was coast wise shipping but beginning in 1836 trains became part of it and expanded until 1890 when the Thames River was bridged at New London and there was direct train service between New York and Boston. For historical reasons this service began to deteriorate in the 1930's. Before the Penn Central took over the New Haven Railroad the government had to send diesel fuel to the New Haven because the railroad had run out and its credit was so bad no private company would deliver any. Without the government fuel the locomotives would have run out and stopped. From that low point Amtrak completely rebuilt the road with concrete ties and welded rail, electrified it in the 90's and runs regular service. Northeast Regional service is better than anything either the NH or the Penn Central ever ran and Amtrak has given us Acela on top of that.
I don't see that as a total lack of accomplishment.
John
You forget you are talking about the US Federal Government with an agency, department, bureaucracy, duplication, redundancy, counter redundancy, conflict, graft flow, etc.for everyone all the time. Any one of a half dozen similar reports could have been and/or will be produced by another group within a short amount of time. Thus another billion or so dollars will go up in rhetoric and nothing really accomplished. Except fodder for FB, Trains, and other forums.
MidlandMike While Amtrak has done their own study (Next Generation) there is always the chance of bias with an in-house report. FRA, being a part of DOT, must look at intersecting interests like commuter rail, freight operators on the NEC, connecting transportation, etc.
While Amtrak has done their own study (Next Generation) there is always the chance of bias with an in-house report. FRA, being a part of DOT, must look at intersecting interests like commuter rail, freight operators on the NEC, connecting transportation, etc.
oltmannd I'm partway through the prelim alts report.pdf and have a couple thoughts: 1. I like guiding principles set out in the Alternatives Development Process. It's all about the current and future market for transportation - not about trains and routes. 2. Why is the FRA doing Amtrak's work?
I'm partway through the prelim alts report.pdf and have a couple thoughts:
1. I like guiding principles set out in the Alternatives Development Process. It's all about the current and future market for transportation - not about trains and routes.
2. Why is the FRA doing Amtrak's work?
I find the statistics in 2.3.3 interesting.
1. Only 9 per cent of all trips begin north or south of New York and end on the other side of New York. That suggests we should look at 2 rail lines, New York and Boston and New York and Washington.
2. North of New York: 85 per cent of all trips begin in New York or Boston but only 27 per cent of all trips end in those cities. 27 per cent is a lot of trips. That must be what drives Acela Service. However, 73 per cent of trips begin or end in Providence, New London, New Haven, Bridgeport or smaller places and are also important.
2a. A small point. Since Acela is an express service and makes few or no stops at stations between New York and Boston why do all Acela trains stop at Route 128 (11 miles south of South Station) and Back Bay (1 mile south of South Station)?
3. South of New York 95 per cent of all trips begin or end at New York, Philadelphia or Washington. However only 57 per cent of all trips begin and end at those cities. This leaves 43 per cent of all trips beginning or ending in intermediate cities: Newark, Newark Liberty Airport, Trenton, Wilmington, Baltimore, Baltimore Washington International Airport or smaller places. For Acela this is a 3 city combination rather than the 2 city (New York and Boston) combination. And the intermediate cities are still important here.
3a. Amtrak's Northeast Regional service is important here despite the fact that convenient but slower commuter service is available between New York and Philadelphia at a much lower fare.
4. Speaking of fares, discount buses offer low fare service all along the northeast corridor and carry a great many passengers. However, Amtrak succeeds despite its higher fare structure. This is especially apparent on the New York to Philadelphia route where Amtrak must compete with both the NJT and SEPTA service and the discount bus service between New York and Philadelphia.
5. To compare lowest fares for May 6 from New York to Philadelphia:
Amtrak Acela $113.
Northeast Regional $36.
NJT + SEPTA $24.50. (Purchase both tickets at any NJT or SEPTA station).
Megabus $7.
Clearly, a lot of people are not simply price shopping. Amtrak gets plenty of Acela riders even though it charges more than $100 more than Megabus does.
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