Trains.com

Sue Amtrak for Antitrust Locked

11959 views
75 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    September 2010
  • From: East Coast
  • 1,199 posts
Posted by D.Carleton on Thursday, April 4, 2013 6:05 AM

ontheBNSF

D.Carleton
A "private company"... or companies? (http://passengerrail.org/) Remember, PRIIA section 209 takes effect in October.

"Amtrak is a private corporation, not a federal agency and therefore does not have an Open Government Team."

http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/547/386/ChiefFOIAOfficerReportRev.pdf

Seems pretty private to me.

The Supreme Court would, and did, say otherwise: "Amtrak was created by a special statute, explicitly for the furtherance of federal governmental goals. As we have described, six of the corporation's eight externally named directors (the ninth is named by a majority of the board itself) are appointed directly by the President of the United States - four of them (including the Secretary of Transportation) with the advice and consent of the Senate."

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=search&friend=washingtonpost&court=US&case=/us/513/374.html

Editor Emeritus, This Week at Amtrak

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 9,610 posts
Posted by schlimm on Thursday, April 4, 2013 6:52 AM

SEC. 301. CREATION OF THE CORPORATION.
There is authorized to be created a National Railroad Passenger
Corporation. The Corporation shall be a for profit corporation, the
purpose of which shall be to provide intercity rail passenger
service, employing innovative operating and marketing concepts so as to fully
develop the potential of modern rail service in meeting the Nation's
intercity passenger transportation requirements. The Corporation will
not be an agency or establishment of the United States Government.

https://bulk.resource.org/gao.gov/91-518/00005088.pdf

C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan

  • Member since
    January 2001
  • From: Atlanta
  • 11,971 posts
Posted by oltmannd on Thursday, April 4, 2013 7:04 AM

D.Carleton
Does passenger rail have to be a ward of the state in perpetuity? Remember, it didn’t start off that way.

It probably does have to be a ward of the state as it is everywhere else in the world.  The question really is: 
"Does the ward have to look like Amtrak?"

Which opens up two options - other than status quo:  1. Amtrak gets replaced with some other structure.  2. The structure of Amtrak changes. 

The latter might be easiest.  One poster around here suggested that Amtrak could actually become a contract administrator and that all services need to operate the trains would be subbed out to a variety of contractors.  e.g. one to maintain the trains, one to operate them, one to provide food services, one to provide hotel services, one to maintain track, one to maintain signals & dispatch, etc.

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

  • Member since
    January 2001
  • From: Atlanta
  • 11,971 posts
Posted by oltmannd on Thursday, April 4, 2013 7:07 AM

schlimm

SEC. 301. CREATION OF THE CORPORATION.
There is authorized to be created a National Railroad Passenger
Corporation. The Corporation shall be a for profit corporation, the
purpose of which shall be to provide intercity rail passenger
service, employing innovative operating and marketing concepts so as to fully
develop the potential of modern rail service in meeting the Nation's
intercity passenger transportation requirements. The Corporation will
not be an agency or establishment of the United States Government.

https://bulk.resource.org/gao.gov/91-518/00005088.pdf

One thing to remember is that the host RRs are only required to host Amtrak trains.  Trains by any other entity would have to be handled by separated contracts by each host road - and the roads would be free to "just say no".  They do not have this right with Amtrak.

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

  • Member since
    January 2001
  • From: Atlanta
  • 11,971 posts
Posted by oltmannd on Thursday, April 4, 2013 7:08 AM

D.Carleton

ontheBNSF

D.Carleton
A "private company"... or companies? (http://passengerrail.org/) Remember, PRIIA section 209 takes effect in October.

"Amtrak is a private corporation, not a federal agency and therefore does not have an Open Government Team."

http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/547/386/ChiefFOIAOfficerReportRev.pdf

Seems pretty private to me.

The Supreme Court would, and did, say otherwise: "Amtrak was created by a special statute, explicitly for the furtherance of federal governmental goals. As we have described, six of the corporation's eight externally named directors (the ninth is named by a majority of the board itself) are appointed directly by the President of the United States - four of them (including the Secretary of Transportation) with the advice and consent of the Senate."

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=search&friend=washingtonpost&court=US&case=/us/513/374.html

It would be fair to say the Amtrak is a nearly-wholly owned private subsidiary of the US Government.

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

  • Member since
    January 2001
  • From: Atlanta
  • 11,971 posts
Posted by oltmannd on Thursday, April 4, 2013 7:16 AM

John WR

oltmannd
And [Amtrak] is stuck somewhere between "lost cause" and "worthy cause", for a whole bunch of reasons, internal and external.

But so far Amtrak is still with us.  Either the anti Amtrakers will prevail and we will loose our national passenger rail service or they will not prevail and we will keep it.  

There is middle ground.   Amtrak stays.  The "state routes" ante-up.  The farebox + state subsidy recovery gets close to 100%.  The "anti's" lose their major talking point.  The conversation continues to pivot toward corridor development - including the NEC (see the latest from the FRA).  The LD network remains irrelevant, but becomes more and more "politically invisible".  Amtrak runs the wheels off the Superliners and P42s in the next several decades.  LD routes get rationalized into a few links between the emerging corridors - with services and equipment to suit.

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

  • Member since
    August 2012
  • 3,727 posts
Posted by John WR on Saturday, April 6, 2013 7:35 PM

oltmannd
There is middle ground.   Amtrak stays.  The "state routes" ante-up.  The farebox + state subsidy recovery gets close to 100%.

It looks to me like that is where Amtrak is now heading.  

  • Member since
    March 2013
  • 252 posts
Posted by Bonas on Sunday, April 7, 2013 4:58 PM

How does amtrak difer from Fannie Mae and Sallie Mac and the post office for that matter

  • Member since
    August 2012
  • 3,727 posts
Posted by John WR on Sunday, April 7, 2013 5:55 PM

For starters, Amtrak actually carries people to where they want to go.  The Post Office will deliver many things.  But not people.  

  • Member since
    May 2012
  • 333 posts
Posted by ontheBNSF on Sunday, April 7, 2013 6:39 PM

To be fair though there aren't really any private companies in this country. Through pension funds and CAFRs the government owns most publicly traded companies. About 70% of stock in publicly traded companies is government owned. Only self owned companies are really private. Even with self owned companies have to deal with government regulations. About 90% economic activity is government if you include regulations and cafrs on top of other government spending.

Railroad to Freedom

  • Member since
    March 2016
  • From: Burbank IL (near Clearing)
  • 13,540 posts
Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, April 8, 2013 7:01 AM

And where would you suggest that state pension funds and similar bodies invest their funds if not in the shares of publicly traded companies?

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
  • Member since
    May 2012
  • 333 posts
Posted by ontheBNSF on Monday, April 8, 2013 8:56 AM

CSSHEGEWISCH

And where would you suggest that state pension funds and similar bodies invest their funds if not in the shares of publicly traded companies?

I recommend that employees are given what they were promised and the programs are discontinued with the rest either refunded to tax payers or spent of programs they want. The governments have far more assets in CAFRs and Pension funds then it will ever need. For more info on the subject watch one of the corporation nation films you don't have to watch only a small piece of one of the corporation nation films to get an idea.

Railroad to Freedom

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: US
  • 25,292 posts
Posted by BaltACD on Monday, April 8, 2013 2:12 PM

ontheBNSF

CSSHEGEWISCH

And where would you suggest that state pension funds and similar bodies invest their funds if not in the shares of publicly traded companies?

I recommend that employees are given what they were promised and the programs are discontinued with the rest either refunded to tax payers or spent of programs they want. The governments have far more assets in CAFRs and Pension funds then it will ever need. For more info on the subject watch one of the corporation nation films you don't have to watch only a small piece of one of the corporation nation films to get an idea.

What are 'corporation nation films'?

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

  • Member since
    January 2002
  • From: Canterlot
  • 9,575 posts
Posted by zugmann on Monday, April 8, 2013 2:15 PM

John WR

For starters, Amtrak actually carries people to where they want to go.  The Post Office will deliver many things.  But not people.  

What if you cram them into one of those flat rate boxes?

If it fits, it ships?

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any

  • Member since
    May 2012
  • 333 posts
Posted by ontheBNSF on Monday, April 8, 2013 2:42 PM

BaltACD

ontheBNSF

CSSHEGEWISCH

And where would you suggest that state pension funds and similar bodies invest their funds if not in the shares of publicly traded companies?

I recommend that employees are given what they were promised and the programs are discontinued with the rest either refunded to tax payers or spent of programs they want. The governments have far more assets in CAFRs and Pension funds then it will ever need. For more info on the subject watch one of the corporation nation films you don't have to watch only a small piece of one of the corporation nation films to get an idea.

What are 'corporation nation films'?

Part 1

www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkfMuvVuETQ

Part 2

www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhkWueEjewM

Railroad to Freedom

  • Member since
    June 2004
  • From: Orig: Tyler Texas. Lived in seven countries, now live in Sundown, Louisiana
  • 25,640 posts
Posted by jeffrey-wimberly on Monday, April 8, 2013 2:57 PM

Sorry folks but this is becoming quite political. Time to move on.

Running Bear, Sundown, Louisiana
          Joined June, 2004

Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running Bear
Space Mouse for president!
15 year veteran fire fighter
Collector of Apple //e's
Running Bear Enterprises
History Channel Club life member.
beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam


Join our Community!

Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.

Search the Community

Newsletter Sign-Up

By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy