bill613aKudos to everyone involved in saving (for now) the PENNSYLVANIAN. That said it's time to get back to work on the proposed thru NY-Chicago service via the CAPITOL LIMITED.
Congressman Bill Shuster is Chairman of the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee. He replaced Congressman John -- Holy Jihad against Amtrak -- MIca. There is reason to be cautiously hopeful.
Kudos to everyone involved in saving (for now) the PENNSYLVANIAN. That said it's time to get back to work on the proposed thru NY-Chicago service via the CAPITOL LIMITED.
If you surf around for people's actual travel experiences on a train or bus you can find a number of problems. May are very individual and have nothing to do with the carrier. But there are some generalizations.
Restrooms. Restrooms are a big area of discussion. On buses restrooms are in the rear, replace 2 seats and project out into the aisle. They are very small. On trains, which have more room, restrooms are larger. And handicapped restrooms are much larger, large enough to use with a wheel chair. However, some buses make frequent rest stops; Greyhound is a bus where frequent rest stops are mentioned and more than once. Some suggest you be sure to avail yourself of the restrooms when the bus makes a rest stop. And be sure to take a bus that does make frequent rest stops.
Fellow riders. Bus fares are cheaper and they can be a lot cheaper. The plus, or course, is the money you don't spend. The minus is that people who are looking to spend as little as possible can contain individuals who some people find less aware of privacy and other things that people who will spend more money on a fare.
Length of trip. A lot of people find a bus more acceptable for a short trip than for a long trip. Buses tend to be smaller and can be more uncomfortable which becomes more difficult as time goes on. But for a shorter trip it can be acceptable.
In short, the train costs more but can also provide a more pleasant experience. You tend to get what you pay for.
Why would I take the train instead getting their faster and at a lower price by bus? Because I enjoy riding the train, and anything over one or two hours on a bus turns it from something enjoyable to something I have to put up with! And most American do enjoy riding trains, if they are neat and comfortable and the food service is decent. A short bus ride can be enjoyable, but a long one is not for most Americans.
oltmanndWhen it comes to what goes on in his home district? You bet! You might actually have to had lived in Altoona to understand this, though.
Hey Don, You don't really need to live in Altoona or even Pennsylvania to understand pork barrel legislation or log rolling. It is simply the way some things are done in the Congress. I don't defend it but I don't think you believe it begins and ends in Pennsylvania.
oltmanndAmtrak is allowed to figure out ways to run more efficiently right now!
I know far too much about the government to argue that Amtrak or any government agency could not be improved. No doubt the things you suggest could be done. What I say and all that I say is that until we have a better provider of passenger rail service I'll stick with Amtrak.
John WR oltmanndTwo words. Bill Shuster. Biil Shuster is 1 of 435 members of the House of Representatives. A majority is 218. Do you think he really has that much power over 217 other members of the House?
oltmanndTwo words. Bill Shuster.
Biil Shuster is 1 of 435 members of the House of Representatives. A majority is 218. Do you think he really has that much power over 217 other members of the House?
When it comes to what goes on in his home district? You bet! You might actually have to had lived in Altoona to understand this, though.
John WRI don't see your point here, Don. Agencies of the Federal Government operate based on what the law is now. No agency of government would or could operate by guessing what the law might be in the future. Do you think anyone can predict what laws are going to be passed at some future date?
Amtrak is allowed to figure out ways to run more efficiently right now! They don't need legislation to figure out how to reduce costs for serving a hamburger or to improve the bottom line of the Pennsylvanian. They can hire and fire, change their food vendor, change fares, add and drop cars, change schedules, cut and add staff, pay bonuses, change salaries, reconfigure coaches, etc, all w/o any new legislation.
The problem is that they only change things when pushed from the outside.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
oltmanndAs for the lower rate. Why did it take so many years and so much prodding from the outside for Amtrak to figure it out?
I don't see your point here, Don. Agencies of the Federal Government operate based on what the law is now. No agency of government would or could operate by guessing what the law might be in the future. Do you think anyone can predict what laws are going to be passed at some future date?
John
John WRThen in the middle of the sequester someone somewhere got agreement from the House to continue Federal support of the Pennsylvanian at a lower amount than before. But if Amtrak's enemies cannot even zero out the Pennsylvanian there seems to be reason to hope Amtrak will survive this.
Two words. Bill Shuster. If this had been the "Georgian" or "Nevadian" the train would have died.
As for the lower rate. Why did it take so many years and so much prodding from the outside for Amtrak to figure it out?
John WRI couldn't find any embarrassment in it.
oltmanndThere has always been a "kill Amtrak" faction. Their "go to" talking point is "subsidy per rider on the worst routes". The deficit is so large that there is danger that Amtrak could be sacrificed on the altar of compromise - more so now and the next few years than ever before.
Yes, there has always been a "kill Amtrak" faction. But Amtrak is not dead yet. Up until a couple of days ago I myself was pretty pessimistic about the survival of Amtrak. Then in the middle of the sequester someone somewhere got agreement from the House to continue Federal support of the Pennsylvanian at a lower amount than before. But if Amtrak's enemies cannot even zero out the Pennsylvanian there seems to be reason to hope Amtrak will survive this.
As far as John MIca's statements about Amtrak I read Joe Boardman's testimony (power point) to the Congress on March 5. I couldn't find any embarrassment in it.
John WRBut there are a lot of people in the country who are involved in the debate and whose views are not represented here.
Sure, but that's not the debate that counts. It's the one between Congress, the admin and Amtrak. The one that determines what happens.
There has always been a "kill Amtrak" faction. Their "go to" talking point is "subsidy per rider on the worst routes". The deficit is so large that there is danger that Amtrak could be sacrificed on the altar of compromise - more so now and the next few years than ever before.
If Amtrak can make that "talking point" go away, then they may live. I don't know if they care enough. $15 hamburgers were just fine - until Mica embarrassed them in public.
oltmanndThe high per-rider Federal subsidies for some Amtrak routes are driving the passenger rail debate.
I think what you say is true on this forum, Don. But there are a lot of people in the country who are involved in the debate and whose views are not represented here. For them I think the issue is maintaining Amtrak vs abandoning Amtrak.
If High Speed Rail should take hold it may make Amtrak irrelevant.
oltmannd I-99 was PORK, pure and simple. The worst (best?) example of what you can do if you chair the right committee. Never should have been built. US 220 was more than adequate. But, that's water over the dam, now - 20 years over the dam.
I-99 was PORK, pure and simple. The worst (best?) example of what you can do if you chair the right committee. Never should have been built. US 220 was more than adequate. But, that's water over the dam, now - 20 years over the dam.
Water over the dam perhaps. But not water coming down the mountain. There are still deposits of pyrite which cause rain to be extremely acidic. So much so that PennDOT had to build detention basins at the bottom to collect the acid and pump it into tanks. When the tanks get full the acid is hauled away by truck. I assume it is hauled over I-99. Also, while the pyrite that had not already been put under the road was picked up and trucked away not all of it could be found. So between pyrite under the road and just dispersed by the blasting acid is still being released into the soil. The problems continue.
Ordinarily, pork barrel legislation had a redeeming feature. Some people do benefit by it. In this case the people who were supposed to benefit have had their ground water (including drinking water in many cases) poisoned. It certainly gives new meaning to pork barrel legislation.
It seems there are at least three POV's in the discussions about passenger rail service, with some overlapping..
One group is those opposed to any federal or state passenger rail service, mostly because of opposition to subsidies (small government, libertarian and TP types?), irritation with the advocacy groups' diffuse messages (comparing subsidy levels, environmental benefits, serving handicapped, etc.) or not wanting passenger trains interfering with operations on freight line hosts.
A second group wants Amtrak to expand conventional passenger rail services, including LD trains, perhaps a restoration to 1950's service levels, with sleepers, diners, baggage cars (lounges, observation cars, parlor cars, etc.?). They seem rather lukewarm or dubious about the benefits of "modern" (40 year history) HSR.
A third group favors modern passenger rail services, including HSR in a mix of complementary services. Amtrak is seen as an institution encumbered with political pork, high-cost labor contracts and outmoded concepts, such as the continued purchase of baggage cars rather than coaches.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
blue streak 12. What are the actual speeds that AMTRAK is able to climb those grades with the present consists ? Further if a PHL - PITTSBURG - sleeper is ever added what would be the speeds?
blue streak 1The question is how much time can be saved around horseshoe if a second loco were to be added ??
One P42 and 6 Amfleet can make about 55 mph up the west slope. Track speed is 44 mph by timetable, with lots of 35 mph curves. Power is not a problem. You could add another 3 cars and still make track speed up the hill.
One P42 and 9 cars would be able to hold track speed up the minor grades west of Johnstown, too.
John WR But the final 18 miles of I-99 cost $389 million, almost $39 million dollars a mile. And it gets worse. The route excavations cut into pyrite, acidic rock. How acidic? The pH is similar to that of battery acid. Dealing with that alone cost $83 million. But sportsmen and environmentalists were pretty outraged. An alternative route could have been chosen that would not have resulted in environmental damage. So while the buses and cars that use I-99 are not directly subsidized the tax payers still had to come up with $389 million. $389 million dollars would pay the Pennsylvanian's 5.7 million dollar subsidy for 68 years. And it would do so without adding to the environment the equivalent of battery acid. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/28/us/28highway.html
But the final 18 miles of I-99 cost $389 million, almost $39 million dollars a mile. And it gets worse. The route excavations cut into pyrite, acidic rock. How acidic? The pH is similar to that of battery acid. Dealing with that alone cost $83 million. But sportsmen and environmentalists were pretty outraged. An alternative route could have been chosen that would not have resulted in environmental damage. So while the buses and cars that use I-99 are not directly subsidized the tax payers still had to come up with $389 million.
$389 million dollars would pay the Pennsylvanian's 5.7 million dollar subsidy for 68 years. And it would do so without adding to the environment the equivalent of battery acid.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/28/us/28highway.html
I-99 was far worse than all the money spent on the Pennsylvanian.
So, my pork is leaner than your pork? It's still pork, no?
The train serves riders in central-west Pennsylvania. The state thinks the service is worth $3+M per year but not $7+M per year. I'm okay with them making that judgement.
But, the problem is bigger than this. The high per-rider Federal subsidies for some Amtrak routes are driving the passenger rail debate. There won't be much forward progress until the debate shifts. Getting the Pennsylvanian's Federal subsidy reduced (eliminated? who knows? nobody's telling) is a good step.
PS. Because dumping the equivalent of battery acid on the environment sounds so outrageous at first glance I want to add this seems to be a massive stroke of bad luck that is no one's fault. Some how the environmental impact statement missed the deposits of pyrite that caused it. On the other hand, we do have to live with the problems that were caused and that continue.
oltmannd Is the train highly subsidized? Yup. Is the bus directly subsidized? Nope.
Well Don, you are right about subsidy. The Pittsburgh Post Gazette reports the Pennsylvanian subsidy is $5.7 million per year. And yes, the bus is not "directly subsidized."
zugmannBecause Amtrak isn't a bus...
Maybe so. Maybe there are other reasons. I did not look into the thinking of the people who want to keep the Pennsylvanian.
oltmannd The alignment of the railroad west of Huntingdon pretty much precludes going any faster. You might get a bit more speed if you jacked the superelevation up to 6" on curves, but that would cost a bundle. It's expensive to try to maintain that much superelevation - NS is perfectly happy with 4". East of there, you the alignment would support some stretches of 90-110, but you'd have to fund a third track. (there is room for it. PRR used to have four tracks where there are now two).
The alignment of the railroad west of Huntingdon pretty much precludes going any faster. You might get a bit more speed if you jacked the superelevation up to 6" on curves, but that would cost a bundle. It's expensive to try to maintain that much superelevation - NS is perfectly happy with 4".
East of there, you the alignment would support some stretches of 90-110, but you'd have to fund a third track. (there is room for it. PRR used to have four tracks where there are now two).
Yes a third track east of Huntingdon will cost a bundle of money that will require someday a matching federal grant to get it built??
Two items
1. we need is the allowed passenger train from Altoona - Galitzin & Johnstown - Galitzin on the up grade segments. ?
2. What are the actual speeds that AMTRAK is able to climb those grades with the present consists ? Further if a PHL - PITTSBURG - sleeper is ever added what would be the speeds?
It may be the a second locomotive is now needed or will be if a sleeper is added. Of course as of now the cronic locomotive shortage precludes a second loco.
The question is how much time can be saved around horseshoe if a second loco were to be added ??
John WRGiven all of buses available between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh including Greyhound's two that make all Amtrak stops I wonder why preservation of Amtrak is so important to those who live in the area.
If it was really important, wouldn't it have more riders? (That's just as a bad a question as yours...)
Is the train more comfortable than the bus? Yup. Is the train highly subsidized? Yup. Is the bus directly subsidized? Nope. What would the ridership be if the Harrisburg - Pittsburgh fare was $80?
It's likely it's important to a some number of folk who bothered to let Bill Shuster know...
John WR Given all of buses available between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh including Greyhound's two that make all Amtrak stops I wonder why preservation of Amtrak is so important to those who live in the area.
Given all of buses available between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh including Greyhound's two that make all Amtrak stops I wonder why preservation of Amtrak is so important to those who live in the area.
Because Amtrak isn't a bus...
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
I did some shopping around for traveling between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh. This is what I learned:
Amtrak runs one train a day. Travel time is about 5 and a half hours. Cost to travel tomorrow is $40. Cost to travel anytime up to June 25 is $40.
Greyhound runs 6 buses a day. Shortest travel time is 4 hours and 5 minutes. Longest is a little over 6 hours. The two 6 hour buses make the same stops Amtrak does; the fast buses do not. Cost is $21 if you buy your ticket on line and $48 if you don't.
Megabus runs 3 buses a day which take 4 hours and 15 minutes. None make Amtrak stops. Cost to travel tomorrow is $16. Cost to travel May 25 is $1.00 or $3.50, depending on the bus you take.
Clearly, to go from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh Megabus offers the best deal on the whole, the lowest cost and only a slightly longer trip than Greyhound.
However, Greyhound makes more trips. The price is more than Megabus, a lot more than Megabus 2 months out but not much more if you need to travel now or in the next few days. I am comparing price only for on line ticketing; I doubt very many would pay the extra for walk up ticketing.
Scheduling: Amtrak leaves Harrisburg at 2:25 pm. Greyhound leaves at 2:00 pm so Amtrak does not offer a scheduling alternative. Megabus has no departure between 1:30 and 2:30 pm. Of course both Greyhound and Megabus have other departures which no doubt many would find more convenient.
Don,
Greyhound operates 6 buses a day from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh. The fastest take a little over 4 hours. The slowest, and there are 2 of them, take over 6 hours. These slow buses the the ones that make all of the stops that Amtrak makes; the 2 fast buses I checked buses make none of the intermediate stops.
This suggest to me that there are two routes to take, a slow route and a fast route.
You point out that both altering the current tracks to allow higher speeds and building a new, faster track are too expensive for a railroad. That suggest a somewhat difference standard was used when paved roads were built (notably I-99). But I guess that is the way it is.
One aspect, albeit a minor one, that has been ignored in this Pennsylvanian discussion, has been that of the railroad stations affected. Johnstown and Altoona have new or refurbished stations that were improved by taxpayer money. Lewistown, through the noble efforts of volunteers, looks terrific, and is light years ahead of what it was in the early 80's. I know that the Greenburg station has been improved. Even Huntingdon has added flower beds and a porta potty to improve things. I never understood the bus comparison with regards to this market. The train serves various towns and cities, that are often ignored by the mega bus. There is civic pride, in the stations, and in the fact that there is a connection to a national rail network. To snub these communities, so that a few more miles of 4 lane highway can be resurfaced, would have been woefully short sited. With regard to what John WR mentioned, yes, I think the 5 and 1/2 hour timing could be trimmed by 15 or 20 minutes. The Pennsylvanian has a solid record in terms of time keeping, so there's hope. Weather it's an over night train beyond Pittsburgh or a duplicate of the Pennsylvanian, I concur with those who believe the route should see two trains a day.
John WR I wonder if Amtrak could operate a little faster west of Harrisburg. Harrisburg to Pittsburgh is 249 miles on Amtrak's schedule. The trip takes 5 1/2 hours and the train averages about 45 mph. Of course there are several stops in between the two places. Megabus and Greyhound average about 55 mph for the same trip which takes an hour off of the total time. I used Amtrak's mileage to estimate the distance although I don't know that the mileage is really the same
I wonder if Amtrak could operate a little faster west of Harrisburg. Harrisburg to Pittsburgh is 249 miles on Amtrak's schedule. The trip takes 5 1/2 hours and the train averages about 45 mph. Of course there are several stops in between the two places.
Megabus and Greyhound average about 55 mph for the same trip which takes an hour off of the total time. I used Amtrak's mileage to estimate the distance although I don't know that the mileage is really the same
There has been talk over the years of doing an all new alignment from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh via State College. Just add money....
The biggest probleme with the Pennsylvanian is the lack of population and disposable income between Pittsburgh and Harrisburg. Knocking 20 or 30 minutes off the schedule doesn't fix that.
My daughter rode The Pennsylvanian for a year from Harrisburg to Johnstown where she attended a technical school. Never once was she the only person to board at Harrisburg, it was always a line waiting to board.
I would have to purchase her ticket two weeks to a month+ ahead of time to assure she had a seat (holiday travel was 6 weeks ahead.) The ridership is there, just that the politics has it down to only one run per day. I say politics as a former recent Governor who was Mayor of a very large city some East of Harrisburg spend $$$ to upgrade rails and trains going East of Harrisburg which exploded in ridership.
Is there a market for trains West? Yes, I would say for one additional western run. Right now there is completion Westward from Grayhound, MegaBus, and a limo service out of Harrisburg. My fellow workers who need to travel to Pittsburgh would gladly take a train vs. a bus, driving or limo if there was better service like what goes Eastward.
Would like to add a little personal story with My daughter rode The Pennsylvanian for a year from Harrisburg to Johnstown where she attended a technical school. Never once was she the only person to board at Harrisburg, it was always a long line waiting to board (20+.).
I would have to add a little person story of The Pennsylvanian. When the above daughter was 5 years old, my company had me working in Pittsburgh on a financial software project for a year (1996/97). My corporate apartment was in The Pennsylvanian, the old Pennsylvania Railroad passenger station/corporate offices on Grant Street. Once a month my wife and daughter would take The Pennsylvanian to Pittsburgh, get off and go to “Daddy’s train station house” for a long weekend of the sights, sounds, trolleys and theater of Pittsburgh. It was coming full circle when she started riding The Pennsylvanian as a young lady. So much so, that now school is behind her, she asked Santa for her own Pennsylvanian train set for under the Christmas tree. Santa was very happy to drop off a package wrapped in Amtrak colors.
oltmannd Bill Shuster was involved (surprise!). Perhaps Bill found a way to supply some "bacon" (thin strips of pork).
PS. Don, What is perhaps a surprise for Amtrak supporters is that there must have been some log rolling by Shuster's same-side-of-the-aisle colleagues. I've been pessimistic about Amtrak's future but this latest turn of events makes me wonder if I have been mistaken.
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