John WR Don, Do I understand correctly that you believe we should dismiss the needs of those who actually need the Pennsylvanian for transportation but you do sympathize with rail fans who want to ride on the Horseshoe Curve and come to Altoona? Here is the link to the article in the Altoona Mirror: http://www.altoonamirror.com/page/content.detail/id/568561/Retain-Amtrak-service.html Best regards, John
Don,
Do I understand correctly that you believe we should dismiss the needs of those who actually need the Pennsylvanian for transportation but you do sympathize with rail fans who want to ride on the Horseshoe Curve and come to Altoona?
Here is the link to the article in the Altoona Mirror: http://www.altoonamirror.com/page/content.detail/id/568561/Retain-Amtrak-service.html
Best regards, John
We don't need to dismiss anything out of hand. We do need to be fair about how we go about things. Why should rural PA get a Federally subsidized train but rural Tennessee does not? Is that fair? Does TN get something in lieu of a passenger rail subsidy? Not that I can see.
Is anybody being stranded if the train comes off? Yes, Huntingdon. What are their options? They would need to find rides to Tyrone or State College to catch a bus. Is that worth $7M? Perhaps the state could run a subsidized van service to Tyrone to meet the bus. Might be cheaper than $7M.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
A McIntosh As I recall, the Nixon Administration seemed to have an understanding with some railroads that they would let Amtrak die a natural death. The 1973 Arab oil embargo changed all that. Then the 1979 Iranian revolution caused a near repeat to occur. If it had not been for those, Amtrak would just be a footnote in history.
As I recall, the Nixon Administration seemed to have an understanding with some railroads that they would let Amtrak die a natural death. The 1973 Arab oil embargo changed all that. Then the 1979 Iranian revolution caused a
near repeat to occur. If it had not been for those, Amtrak would just be a footnote in history.
Yes. That took a lot of steam out of the "let it die" crowd.
One other piece of history is how Volpe managed to get the legislation by Nixon's staff in the first place. Volpe was really the only supporter - there was quite a bit of intrigue.
oltmannd John WR Don, Do I understand correctly that you believe we should dismiss the needs of those who actually need the Pennsylvanian for transportation but you do sympathize with rail fans who want to ride on the Horseshoe Curve and come to Altoona? Here is the link to the article in the Altoona Mirror: http://www.altoonamirror.com/page/content.detail/id/568561/Retain-Amtrak-service.html Best regards, John We don't need to dismiss anything out of hand. We do need to be fair about how we go about things. Why should rural PA get a Federally subsidized train but rural Tennessee does not? Is that fair? Does TN get something in lieu of a passenger rail subsidy? Not that I can see.
The answer is not in the Federal government but the state houses of PA and TN. If TN needs and wants a train, they are to pony up their share and the Feds will theirs. That's how it done in all other states. The Fed is not favoring one state over another, each state must pay their part.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
Buried in one article was this:
"Another possibility would be for Pennsylvania to contract with another rail operator, such as SEPTA or a private firm like Herzog Transit Services Inc. of St. Joseph, Mo., to run the trains. 'It might put more of the onus on PennDot to start looking around for a competitive bidder," said Mitchell. "Amtrak's unit operating costs are relatively high.' "
Apparently, Amtrak has very high operating (read labor) costs compared to other operators in the same area. It would be very interesting if that info could be teased out and an average percentage difference were known in various areas. Perhaps we could have real regional services if operating expenses were somewhat lower?
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
henry6The Fed is not favoring one state over another, each state must pay their part.
So, might as well save the money from the no value added round trip to DC!
schlimm Buried in one article was this: "Another possibility would be for Pennsylvania to contract with another rail operator, such as SEPTA or a private firm like Herzog Transit Services Inc. of St. Joseph, Mo., to run the trains. 'It might put more of the onus on PennDot to start looking around for a competitive bidder," said Mitchell. "Amtrak's unit operating costs are relatively high.' " Apparently, Amtrak has very high operating (read labor) costs compared to other operators in the same area. It would be very interesting if that info could be teased out and an average percentage difference were known in various areas. Perhaps we could have real regional services if operating expenses were somewhat lower?
Yes...this is now possible....another added codicel Congress added later to prompt Amtrak out of business.
henry6 schlimm Buried in one article was this: "Another possibility would be for Pennsylvania to contract with another rail operator, such as SEPTA or a private firm like Herzog Transit Services Inc. of St. Joseph, Mo., to run the trains. 'It might put more of the onus on PennDot to start looking around for a competitive bidder," said Mitchell. "Amtrak's unit operating costs are relatively high.' " Apparently, Amtrak has very high operating (read labor) costs compared to other operators in the same area. It would be very interesting if that info could be teased out and an average percentage difference were known in various areas. Perhaps we could have real regional services if operating expenses were somewhat lower? Yes...this is now possible....another added codicel Congress added later to prompt Amtrak out of business.
Amtrak has not been able to hang onto commuter operating contracts - even the ones they really, really wanted to. That should have been enough to light a fire under them and get them going. Sadly, that hasn't happened. They have enough fat, still, that they can just bounce over the fiscal cliff like it's a speed bump.
IIRC the PENNSYLVANIAN began in April of 1980 as a 403-b service. It continued that way for many years until sometime in the late 90's (?) when it became part of the national system. I don't see Amtrak and Penn DOT pulling the plug on the Philadelphia-Harrisburg service what with the large investments that have been made in it. Not supporting the Harrisburg-Pittsburgh segment may cause some political rancor but probably not enough to save the service as is. This issue will undoubtedly require a deal between NS, Amtrak and Penn DOT similar to what was worked out among BNSF, the state of North Dakota and Amtrak to save the service thru Grand Forks. For example if Penn DOT paid for whatever switches (if any ) need to be (re) installed at Pittsburgh and Amtrak finally makes a move on the PRIIA of FY 2010 on running thru cars to Philadelphia and NYC the PENNSYLVANIAN could become the NYC section of the CAPITOL similar to the Boston section of the LSL and the Portland section of the EB.
But is not the Capitol a Superliner train? How many transition cars does Amtrak have?
According to the Altoona Mirror the total subsidy for the Harrisburg to Pittsburgh section of the Pennsylvanian is $5.7 million, not $7 million. Of that amount the state of Pennsylvania already pays half so the Federal portion is $2.85 million.
As far fairness is concerned, when public needs are provided by the government through taxes there is no possible way for every person in the country to benefit equally. That doesn't happen with taxes and has never happened. If we were to require equal benefit for any tax funded expenditure we would have no government at all. For example, last September Joe Boardman pointed out that in the 3 prior years $50 billion was transferred from the general fund to spend on highways. That is more than has been spent on Amtrak in all of the years Amtrak has existed.
Have you changed your mind about Altoona's importance to the history and culture of America?
With best regards, John
PS
Don, The City of New Orleans serves South Fulton and New Bern/Dyersberg in Tennessee. The Amtrak station for South Fulton is actually in Fulton, Kentucky. Fulton and South Fulton are right on the border. I believe these are both fairly rural areas.
John
A McIntosh,
What I have read is that the private railroads had been arguing for some time that passengers were deserting them. They were making the argument because they wanted to abandon passenger service. Some in government did buy into that argument and Richard Nixon may have been one of them. Those who did accept the argument expected Amtrak to be short lived and phased out when everyone stopped riding trains. The problem, of course, what that people did not stop riding trains. When Amtrak began fewer than 20 million people a year rode trains. As soon as Amtrak began the number began to grow slowly and by fits and starts. Today, however, about 30 million people ride trains each year.
Back in 1970 many private railroads which were not broke were still having financial difficulty. They very much wanted to get rid of the burden of passenger service in any way they could. Amtrak offered them the way to do just that.
henry6The answer is not in the Federal government but the state houses of PA and TN. If TN needs and wants a train, they are to pony up their share and the Feds will theirs. That's how it done in all other states. The Fed is not favoring one state over another, each state must pay their part.
You make an interesting observation, Henry. From the outset the state of Pennsylvania has shared the cost of the Pennsylvanian with the Federal Government and shared the costs of the Philadelphia to Harrisburg service. This mutual agreement has been going on for many years now and has always been considered fair to both sided. Most people have not questioned it but as we all know the last Congressional term included strong opposition to Amtrak. We will have to wait and see what happens this term.
But I think the question of shared costs is not as simple as states sharing the costs of trains that run through them. Does North Dakota share the cost of the part of the Empire Builder that passes through it? I have never heard that it does.
Best wishes, John
bill613aFor example if Penn DOT paid for whatever switches (if any ) need to be (re) installed at Pittsburgh and Amtrak finally makes a move on the PRIIA of FY 2010 on running thru cars to Philadelphia and NYC the PENNSYLVANIAN could become the NYC section of the CAPITOL similar to the Boston section of the LSL and the Portland section of the EB.
Bill,
I know you are speculating here but I find your idea fascinating. Right now changing from the Pennsylvanian to the Capitol Limited requires a long wait, sometimes in the middle of the night. Never the less 19,000 people a year make the change. With through service it could be possible to pick up a significantly larger number of riders.
John WRThe problem, of course, what that people did not stop riding trains. When Amtrak began fewer than 20 million people a year rode trains. As soon as Amtrak began the number began to grow slowly and by fits and starts. Today, however, about 30 million people ride trains each year.
And, what was the population then? And what is it now?
200M and 350M. Not keeping pace - although the last decade has been better.
All the growth last year was in the corridor trains. LD is dead. It has a completely irrelevant market share.
John WR bill613aFor example if Penn DOT paid for whatever switches (if any ) need to be (re) installed at Pittsburgh and Amtrak finally makes a move on the PRIIA of FY 2010 on running thru cars to Philadelphia and NYC the PENNSYLVANIAN could become the NYC section of the CAPITOL similar to the Boston section of the LSL and the Portland section of the EB. Bill, I know you are speculating here but I find your idea fascinating. Right now changing from the Pennsylvanian to the Capitol Limited requires a long wait, sometimes in the middle of the night. Never the less 19,000 people a year make the change. With through service it could be possible to pick up a significantly larger number of riders. With best regards, John
Ah, yes! The concept of service instead of running trains.
Banner, get out of my way so I can click "post"!
The argument of years is a non argument.....the times are so different: business and political philosophies, social needs, environmental conditions, energy supplies, land usage, so much different. Railroads in 1970 were swimming in red ink because of major shifts in industry from the Northeast to the South and Southwest, the effects of the St.Lawrence Seaway on harbors on the east coast, and the increasing availability of the Eisenhower Interstate Highway system across the entire country. The US Postal Service had finished the use of railroads for carrying mail on passenger trains, people had at least two cars in every household, rails were desperate to fight the trucking industry. Today, population shifts have slowed considerably, Eastern cities and metropolitan areas are growing, the overcrowded highway infrastructure in need of repairs and replacement, energy prices are what? ten or more times what they were in 1970, air pollution has to be brought under control along with costs of transportation, airlines have pulled full size jets out of hundreds of airports and replaced the service with small, claustrophobic planes. The number of Class One railroads has shrunk to less than a dozen from hundreds by mergers, acquisitions, and abandonment of lines. And private enterprise railroads and trucking companies work together to move freight long distances for many social and technical reasons. So trucking companies and railroads are now looking to the Federal government together for help in building a transportation infrastructure for the future. And people on trains is again an idea whose time has come. Not a choo choo train, but a passenger rail system that is combined with auto, bus, and air to provide a transportation service to meet demands and needs of the nation. Is the LD train part of this mix? or do we just run seats along corridors? Who are we serving? people? politicians? money sources? A whole different world in 2013 than in 1970..a whole lot different. Needs new way of thinking than then.
Just like getting rid of the FB banner at the bottom of this page...mere clicking it out is going to wear thin and other means will have to be found.....
On cold winter nights with a snowstorm the change in Pittsburgh is actually a health and safety hazard! I pointed that out to Claytor by mail, and then the thru cars were organized, to be dropped when the Capitol went Superliner. Are there transition cars that can solve the problem?
daveklepperOn cold winter nights with a snowstorm the change in Pittsburgh is actually a health and safety hazard!
Dave,
Is the Pittsburgh Station open all night? Coming from Chicago the Capitol Cities Limited arrives in Pittsburgh at 4:35 am. To change to the Pennsylvanian to New York you have to wait to 7:35 am. Do they put you out of the station until it opens the next day or can you wait inside?
The last time that I rode the Capitol to Pittsburgh the station was open. We got off at 4:35AM. We walkied around downtown Pittsburgh. Had some breakfast. Enjoyed the sights. There was a beautiful Christmas display. Went back and waited in the station to board the Pennsylvanian for Lancaster. On the return trip to Chicago we had to wait what seemed like forever for the Capitol. It was late from Washington DC and I beleive it was after 1:00AM before it arrived.
We have made that trip twice and, to the best of my knowledge, the Pittsburgh station was always open. Has something changed?
iron mountainWe have made that trip twice and, to the best of my knowledge, the Pittsburgh station was always open. Has something changed?
Iron,
I've never been to Pittsburgh. Dave mentioned that changing trains could be a health hazard but I guess that is not a problem for a man of iron. You make me want to visit and stop in Pittsburgh for an early breakast before I get on the Pennsylvanian to Newark. I guess I better go while there is still time.
John,
The eastbound layover isn't bad. As I mentioned earlier it was in December. We left the station and found a Starbucks in one of the biggest buildings in the downtown. It was just a few blocks from the station. And as I mentioned before, there was a surprisingly beautiful and elaborate outdoor Christmas display. Angels, Holy Family and so forth. The layover did not seem to be too long. It might have been because of the novelty of being first timers in PGH.
The westbound trip layover was a lot longer. I made reservations at a downtown restaurant that was near the city's ballet hall. I think that Swan Lake was performing that night. We did manage to get a cab. I have found that smaller cities like PGH and STL are not easy to get cabs in especially after a certain hour. Exercise caution. Chicago and Philly are much easier to get around in. Anyway we had dinner. It was OK. Not that great for the money. It killed some time. The Capitol doesn't arrive until midnight (the Pennsylvanian gets in at 8PM. But the Cap was real late and we were really tired.
As to the station it is a mere vestage of its former self. It is typical Amtrak. The waiting room is in what looks like it was once a baggage handling area. Like a basement. There is a long escalator/starway up to the train shed. Easy train off and on. Few amenities in the station. Chairs, tv's, and a few vending machines. There is a baggage check and ticket agents. They were helpful and friendly. I explored outside and found the part of the station that was the original Pennsy station. The great hall is off limits. Now it looks to be a fairly upscale office and condo arangement. I looked at the interior through a window. The original entry way for passenger drop off was a large vaulted dome with plaques for the four cities served on each pillar. I think that the cities included, Philadelphia, Chicago, Pittsburgh, and Cleveland or maybe it was St. Louis. At one time it must have been quite a beauty. At least the wrecking ball crowd haven't got to it yet.
The station seemed to have lots of passengers. My two trips on the Pennsylvanian it appeared as if the train was well patronized. Interesting scenery. I hate to hear that it may get canceled. I know that some others have talked about a through sleeper and coach on the Capitol for the Pennsylvanian. It would certainly make the trip more comfortable. The last time we caught the train in Lancaster and went to Philly then to DC and then back to Chicago on the Capitol. Longer and more expensive but more pleasant than sitting for hours in the PGH station. 30th Street Station has a very nice lounge for sleeper passengers.
I agree that Amtrak did the right thing at 30th Street Station. I guess there are just too many stations to restore all of them. I come from Providence. Amtrak build a new station there. Outside isn't very impressive--just a squat mound of concrete with a clock tower--but inside is decent. A big enough waiting room with a good news stand and also a coffee shop. It is much smaller than the old station but it is big enough for Providence.
The closest I've gotten to Pittsburgh is Bear Run to visit Edgar and Lilianne Kaufman's weekend home better known as Frank Lloyd Wright's Falling Water. Unfortunately, the only way we found to get there is to drive.
PS. From everything I hear the Pennsylvanian is a lost cause. I can only wish it were not so.
If attempts to save the PENNSYLVANIAN focus on the status quo then yes it could face a rough road. My suggestion on acting on the PRIIA 2010 study focuses on more than just adding a thru sleeper (one of the NY-CHI cars from the LSL) and long distance coach on/off at Pittsburgh but tweaking the CAPITOLS' schedule.
Both the LSL and CL share a common route between Chicago and Cleveland. However east of Cleveland with the exception of train 49 at Erie all the major cities have convenient train times on the LSL. East of Cleveland on the CL Pittsburgh being the only major city has only a decent train time on # 29. The connecting cities on the PENNSYLVANIAN have decent train times but only after 2.5 to 3.5 hour layover in Pittsburgh. No surprise then that the LSL ridership is approximately 80+% higher than the CL. My tweaking is two fold.
First, the schedule should be adjusted so that the CL arrives EB & WB in Pittsburgh closer to the current train times of the PENNSYLVANIAN. #29 would depart DC at 1PM affording riders more daylight time to enjoy the scenic highlights as listed in the timetable. #30 would depart Pittsburgh between 7-7:30 am.
Second, the CL should be re-routed between Butler, IN and Chicago via Fort Wayne over ex-Wabash and ex-NKP trackage with a stop in Valpariso. The Chicago train times would depend on the running time over this line. EB # 48 would be the first train out of Chicago so that passengers out of South Bend, Elkhart and Waterloo could connect with #30 in Toledo. WB #29 would get to Chicago first so that passengers to those three cities could make connections at Toledo with # 49.
Thru service to Harrisburg, Philadelphia, New Jersey and NYC should boost ridership while maintaining the favorable schedule in Pennsylvania.
Here's hoping!
I have a different perspective than you do. I think we are at a time in our history when there is a very determined anti government movement. The movement has captured the Republican party and moved it far to the right of where it was from the beginning to the middle 1960's. Traditional Republicans are not called RINOs -- Republicans in Name Only. Yet they are the Republicans in the tradition of Abe Lincoln.
This new movement sees government in general as bad and anything that can be done to reduce government as good. One way of reducing government is by hacking away at it any way you can. This explains the attacks on Sen. Hegel, on Obamacare and on Amtrak. I'm sure the country will survive. I'm not sure about Amtrak.
This new movement sees government in general as bad and anything that can be done to reduce government as good. One way of reducing government is by hacking away at it any way you can. This explains the attacks on Sen. Hagel, on Obamacare and on Amtrak. I'm sure the country will survive. I'm not sure about Amtrak.
Please do not make the error of classifying folks who want to improve Amtrak with the TP portion of the GOP who want to abolish Amtrak.
Even with the station open and heated, isn't the walk between the station and the train a bit cold and even snowy and icy in bad weather?
DK, I am not sure what constitutes a difficult walk to the train for you. I thought that the off and on at PGH was quite easy. The longest trek that I have experienced is at CHI Union Station boarding the TE. But it is all enclosed in the train shed, eventhough it is dark and cold in the winter. If my memory is accurate, and it isn't always, the Pennsylvainan arrives and departs in the train shed. It was dark every time we arrived and departed PGH. I don't remember it being a long walk. But maybe that is a personal perception. I do a lot of walking as part of my fitness regimen. Three to four miles several times a week is usual for me. I don't remember if Red Caps are available or not.
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